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A question about Scripture and being saved

Magna

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
My overall question is in bold below:

Bible verses:

Revelation 7:4-8, Revelation 14:1-5 talk about how 144,000 people will be saved/go to Heaven.
In Matthew 7:13-14 and Luke 13:24 Jesus says that few will be saved/go to Heaven.

In fact, the passage from Luke says: "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able." I would assume this means that those who "seek to enter" are people who actually believe and strive to live their lives in a way that will result in being saved. Atheists wouldn't "seek to enter" Heaven.

Playing the lottery and gambling in general:

I believe a common reason for people who do not play the lottery or gamble in general is that the odds are so far out of their favor of winning anything. If we're to hold the scripture passages above as literal fact, why or how is it any different than the negative odds of winning the lottery or winning at gambling?

I know that some say that the 144,000 for example is a metaphor and shouldn't be taken literally. Wouldn't that mean that we can pick and choose in other parts of the Bible as to what shouldn't be taken literally?
 
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Every religious text is full of contradictions, whether you take them 100% literal or figurative. They just are. There are many places online that list each contradiction, actually. The fact that so many people will staunchly claim and defend a religion without knowing its many contradictions will always be how you can spot the lemmings of said bunch - the ones you know absolutely never read said text(s) cover to cover.

You uncover a contradiction overall concerning the more zealot religious types, how they will pick and choose what is metaphorical, all the while, they sure will harp on you or belittle you for not following and living according to their holy text without fail. It's all very much a "do as I say - not as I do" mentality.

Personally, I have never wanted to live by any book calling itself the absolute "light - the way - the truth," and the whole time, either printed right there on the cover or just inside on the first page, it has the word "version" included in its title. I just can't take it seriously at all.
 
Every religious text is full of contradictions, whether you take them 100% literal or figurative. They just are. There are many places online that list each contradiction, actually. The fact that so many people will staunchly claim and defend a religion without knowing its many contradictions will always be how you can spot the lemmings of said bunch - the ones you know absolutely never read said text(s) cover to cover.

You uncover a contradiction overall concerning the more zealot religious types, how they will pick and choose what is metaphorical, all the while, they sure will harp on you or belittle you for not following and living according to their holy text without fail. It's all very much a "do as I say - not as I do" mentality.

Personally, I have never wanted to live by any book calling itself the absolute "light - the way - the truth," and the whole time, either printed right there on the cover or just inside on the first page, it has the word "version" included in its title. I just can't take it seriously at all.

I understand what you're saying, but my question relates not to contradictions but to why, when the Bible and Jesus himself says that only a very small number of people will be saved (in relation to the billions and billions of people through all time) that there are billions and billions of Christians when in contrast, many people avoid playing the lottery and gambling because the number of winners is also miniscule in comparison to those who participate.
 
The 144,000 are a specific group of Believers, but that is not a cap on how many are going to Heaven.
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God,
to those who believe in His name: who were born,
not of blood,​
nor of the will of the flesh,​
nor of the will of man,​
but of God." John 1:12-13 NKJV​
 
My overall question is in bold below:

Bible verses:

Revelation 7:4-8, Revelation 14:1-5 talk about how 144,000 people will be saved/go to Heaven.
In Matthew 7:13-14 and Luke 13:24 Jesus says that few will be saved/go to Heaven.

In fact, the passage from Luke says: "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able." I would assume this means that those who "seek to enter" are people who actually believe and strive to live their lives in a way that will result in being saved. Atheists wouldn't "seek to enter" Heaven.

Playing the lottery and gambling in general:

I believe a common reason for people who do not play the lottery or gamble in general is that the odds are so far out of their favor of winning anything. If we're to hold the scripture passages above as literal fact, why or how is it any different than the negative odds of winning the lottery or winning at gambling?

I know that some say that the 144,000 for example is a metaphor and shouldn't be taken literally. Wouldn't that mean that we can pick and choose in other parts of the Bible as to what shouldn't be taken literally?

It is personal convictions.
You know it is actually not based on works but a gift from God through the suffering of Jesus Christ.

What this verse means is if you chose the world and all it's pleasures and lusts of the flesh then you will walking the wide path. Getting into heaven is to do with following faith and being handpicked and a gift.
It is not easy to pick up your cross each day. I think being with God is a relationship but obviously God is way more than us humans will ever be.

Just do the best you can, as long as you believe in Jesus Christ and God and believe you are saved then God will bless you.
 
It is personal convictions.
You know it is actually not based on works but a gift from God through the suffering of Jesus Christ.

What this verse means is if you chose the world and all it's pleasures and lusts of the flesh then you will walking the wide path. Getting into heaven is to do with following faith and being handpicked and a gift.
It is not easy to pick up your cross each day. I think being with God is a relationship but obviously God is way more than us humans will ever be.

Just do the best you can, as long as you believe in Jesus Christ and God and believe you are saved then God will bless you.

In Luke 13:24 Jesus says that people should "strive to enter through the narrow door". Those would be people who presumably don't "choose the world and all it's [sic] pleasures and lusts of the flesh" as you say, but instead are people who are trying to live a life pleasing to God in order to get to Heaven. Jesus said "many (of those striving to get to Heaven?) will "seek to enter and will not be able.".
 
My overall question is in bold below:

Bible verses:

Revelation 7:4-8, Revelation 14:1-5 talk about how 144,000 people will be saved/go to Heaven.
In Matthew 7:13-14 and Luke 13:24 Jesus says that few will be saved/go to Heaven.

In fact, the passage from Luke says: "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able." I would assume this means that those who "seek to enter" are people who actually believe and strive to live their lives in a way that will result in being saved. Atheists wouldn't "seek to enter" Heaven.

Playing the lottery and gambling in general:

I believe a common reason for people who do not play the lottery or gamble in general is that the odds are so far out of their favor of winning anything. If we're to hold the scripture passages above as literal fact, why or how is it any different than the negative odds of winning the lottery or winning at gambling?

I know that some say that the 144,000 for example is a metaphor and shouldn't be taken literally. Wouldn't that mean that we can pick and choose in other parts of the Bible as to what shouldn't be taken literally?
You raise important questions. I’ve looked at this question a lot, if not from the lottery angle.

Jesus said that many people will choose the wide road and few will walk the narrow path, yet the pollsters say at least half the population will claim to be religious. Jesus said that many will be astonished to find they are unsaved, having taught and cast out demons. Many are called, few are chosen. IOW, there will be lots of deceived people calling themselves Christians.

Either God really does run a bingo game in the basement, or there is more to being elected than throwing your hat in the ring and awaiting election results.

Jesus laid down some earthshaking facts in the Sermon on the Mount, then concluded with the answer to your question. The people who weather the storm are those that do the will of the Father.

Now, many will spasm when they hear that: what a massive contradiction of New Testament teachings, right? To say that doing what God tells you gets you saved, is to say that salvation comes of works. Blasphemy! To @Dagan’s comments on contradictions, I suggest that calling something a contradiction and then abandoning the quest (as though we could judge God) dooms you to fail at finding how it all fits together.

However, Jesus didn’t say that people are saved by doing what they’re told. He said those who do the will of the Father are the ones who are saved. Correlation, not causation. Faith, not legalism. The one who couldn’t lift his gaze to God but beat his chest was justified; knowing he was unworthy, he nevertheless came before God because God called him to be there.

If your approach to God is to try to be standing where you think lightning is going to strike, join the many in the pews who only came to purchase fire insurance. OTOH, if you draw near to God, he will draw near to you. After that, many ‘contradictions’ in the Bible fade into the foolishness of your past, as the Holy Spirit (slowly) remakes you in the likeness of Jesus.
 
In Luke 13:24 Jesus says that people should "strive to enter through the narrow door". Those would be people who presumably don't "choose the world and all it's [sic] pleasures and lusts of the flesh" as you say, but instead are people who are trying to live a life pleasing to God in order to get to Heaven. Jesus said "many (of those striving to get to Heaven?) will "seek to enter and will not be able.".
Because many/most will try to enter heaven, rather than drawing near to God, which is the path to heaven.
 
This is how it was explained to me. I hope it helps you.

There will be more than 144,000 people who go to heaven. I believe the 144,000 will be Rabbis. But I'm not entirely sure.

The entire Bible is written in Gematria. Every word, phrase, or number has an absolute value. And those numbers can help the reader to understand the passage.



To be saved, all you have to do is put your faith in Jesus Christ, acknowledge Him as God in the Flesh, and repent of your sins. Then ask The Holy Spirit (The Ruach Ha Kodesh) to come into your heart and wash your spirit clean. If you've done that, The Bible says that you are now a new creation, and the former self has been washed away. You then have your name written in The Lamb's Book of Life. The Bible also says that what God holds in his hand, no power, whether physical or spiritual, can take you out.

God will then lead you and nudge you, through The Holy Spirit, that now dwells inside of you, to make the right decision. Discernment. You'll still sin sometimes, or maybe often. But you are now a child of God. And he will teach you to walk in righteousness.
 
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If you want to really take on "gambling" per the bible, you need only to read the book of Job. It's the first horror story I ever read as a 6 year old child. God and Satan gamble on whether or not a most devout follower will denounce his faith, and God allows Satan to literally do his worst (heinous torture and such) to even prove himself correct. It's not cool.
 
I think the important thing to keep in mind here is that each the gospels were written AFTER the death of Jesus. Anywhere from 40 to ~70 years after the death of the man known as Jesus.

It's interesting to read each gospel and how each one is different. Mark - the first gospel - features a real person type of Jesus whereas the last gospel - John - is fantastical and speaks of Jesus as a spiritual being sent to earth.

Keep in mind that these were oral histories being written down after the fact, and the people writing them were not there when these events occurred. The numbers are not to be taken literally.
 
As Masked Man said, but I'd like to expand upon this, which is textual criticism. I'm by no means an expert on it, but I have done a lot of studying over the past year on it. Some groups ascribe to the "infallible word of God" in which scripture is "divinely inspired by God," and therefore, it means what it says, no more, no less. You'll find varying degrees of literalism and metaphorical. I have met many Christians who view the Old Testament entirely literally, and I have met Jews who see it entirely metaphorically. I think it is wrong to do either as there is so much history and context to consider that looking at the whole can be confusing and misleading - as many religions are.

Here are things to consider: The Old Testament was written after hundreds of years of oral history by Jews. These were also written in a Jewish-specific culture and, as such, have Jewish meanings and idioms. The first five are traditionally ascribed to Moses, but if he did dictate them, the earliest copies we have happened long after his existence. The other books have various authors and oral traditions leading up to their writings. The Bible is an anthology written by many different others, translated by many different scribes over many different centuries. We also have proof that passages were sometimes changed to fit certain cultures' ideas about the bible (thanks to modern technology, like, don't quote me on this MRI Imaging (could be another thing)). Going deeper than anyone probably wants to, but I'm too focused on the subject to dictate otherwise:

For example, the Hebrew Sheol is the traditional underworld of the Jews. In English, however, this place is translated into not just multiple different words (ex: Hell) but even phrases (ex: Realm of the Dead) across multiple different translations. Sheol is not the fire and brimstone underworld we commonly would think of, but instead a kind of nothingness and silence slumber. The Witch of Endor (yes, like Star Wars), for example, uses necromancy to summon the spirit of the prophet back from Sheol in the Old Testament. He is understandably miffed at this heresy and asks essentially, "Why, pardon my French, the hecky heck did you bring me back from the dead? I was at peace." Obviously, I paraphrase quite a bit and lean into comedy, but anyway, Christian theologians and translators often struggle with dealing with Sheol and its pre-Christ meaning in the "grand design," if you will. There are probably quite a few who do deal with this - again, not an expert or theologian, just things I've encountered in a year of study.

Also, in the Old Testament, there are over 30 names and words for God. Those in particular to keep track of are El (singular), Elom (dual), and Elohim (plural). Elohim is the term used at the beginning of Genesis for God. I have seen arguments that this is an example of the Canaanites polytheism, that this is an example of early Jewish Henotheism (many gods, but one is king above all), and that it is the royal plural for singular deity. Elohim, however, is also used in certain passages to refer to "angels" and the "divine council of god" (which, as far as I know, are assumed to be other angels). I'm not here to tell you what's right, only to point out the transcriptional problems of trying to understand a culture from several thousand years ago.

Going into the New Testament - as Masked Man said - the earliest copies we have of the Gospels are decades after Jesus' crucifixion. The Synoptic Gospels (meaning "same vision" - Matthew, Mark, and Luke) share sources of information and overlap in telling with certain things told differently (even if they're being as truthful as they can, let's remember human memory is far from infallible). John fills in details and stories that the others don't - John is also a smug son of a gun who refers to himself "as the one Jesus loved," if I remember correctly. Anyways, yeah written decades after the fact, as far as we can tell.

The their is Acts, which is the same author as Luke, both by tradition and as far as historians can tell. Things get sticky with Paul of Tarsus. Paul is technically the founder of what we would consider Christianity the religion. Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew and wasn't seeking to make a new religion but to spread his message to those who would hear it (first the Jews, then the Gentiles (non-Jews)). Paul (or at least the person claiming to be Paul) wrote for sure eight of the New Testament books and epistles. The other, particularly the most controversial, is Hebrews. I remember that it's for a specific passage.

Another thing is the Bible as we know it (which there are two major English versions, not including translations) wasn't solidified until several hundred years later by "the Church," which was really a council of various clergymen from many different sects (I believe about 600 showed up and debated) on what should be the "canon version" of the bible. Things that were decidedly not included were "the Gospel of Thomas" (the Gnostic Gospel), "the Gospel of Mary", and many others that were deemed non-Canon. Of note, the Book of Revelations (written by John, but not necessarily the Apostle John) was hotly contested and barely made it into the canon by a slim majority.

Either who, this has been a longer post than I intended, but all of this is to say is to consider the author and the context in which each book takes place and how they may or may not connect or contradict each other. As far as I know, the individual books and epistles are at least internally consistent. Many people don't consider these things when talking about the bible - I'm not going to get into the "mysteries of God and his ways," but for me, it makes me consider things much more carefully and has helped me, slowly but surely, learn more.

If you want a more thorough discussion I recommend Dr. Dan Wallace (textual criticism) or Mike Licona and his interviews of Lee Martin McDonald (canonicity) if you're more faith-oriented. If you're more academic or irreligious then check out Bart Ehrman.
 

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