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Do you agree that Technology is going too far?

Yeah, it's got a nasty flavour to it. MS showed their intentions unintentionally when they messed up with Co-pilot, having it taking screenshots every few seconds or so to build up a training data set without the users knowledge of what was happening, and then when outed claiming it's only screenshots saved to the devices hard drive - but they forgot to mention what happened to that data after it was OCR'ed and analysed by the AI, and all stored where? Oh! It's in MS's data warehouses, what a surprise, must have just slipped their mind! (ho hum)

Essentially data theft in no uncertain terms, but with a neural network the data is stored in such a fashion that even if you know your data is in there, getting it out in a form that would satisfy a court is another matter altogether, and the tech/AI firms know this and that's one reason they feel fine with such 'flexible' ethics. I mean, how can it be stealing if no-one can prove it?

Personally I find it boggling (though not surprising) that people can be allowed to get away with this, for little more reason than they can get away with it, and there's lots of money to be made for the people who enabled this behaviour. Says far more about these companies than any of their mealy mouthed PR messaging tries to say.
 
but they forgot to mention what happened to that data after it was OCR'ed and analysed by the AI, and all stored where? Oh! It's in MS's data warehouses, what a surprise, must have just slipped their mind! (ho hum)
This is why windows 10 is my final stop with MS OSes. I don't really use Windows as a rule but I do have some things like my EEPROM Programmer that run only under windows, unless you want to use CLI under Linux. I prefer the GUI as it's much easier to do things in a few clicks.

I will probably find some way of using stuff like that in MacOS. So far Apple haven't thrust their AI onto users and certainly not in such an intrusive way.

I may torrent the occasional movie, mostly because it's quicker than transcoding them from the DVD I own. But still, I don't want MS snooping at my activities on principle. Who knows what sorts of things they could use that sort of power to do in the future. Recent events in the world show that you are basically a mere coin toss away from finding yourself a target if the politics change where you are in the world. I'm skirting the subject here on purpose as I don't want to make this post stray into actual political territory.

What I am saying though is that as things stand MS may handle your OCR'd data responsibly, but that could change if some other party can make them have a change of policy in the future.
 
I will probably find some way of using stuff like that in MacOS. So far Apple haven't thrust their AI onto users and certainly not in such an intrusive way.
I didn't pay much more than passing attention at the time so may have some detail wrong, but I believe Apple just recently had to pull their AI news collation app because it had repeatedly attributed 'hallucinated' news articles to providers such as the BBC. Apple dug their heels in for a while but they were clearly unable to resolve it in a timely fashion and had to pull what apparently was touted as a flagship AI product (i.e. major selling point).

How you measure the impact of that against the (imho) despicable Co-pilot lies and (again imho) data theft, is going to be difficult and would probably have to be considered on a case by case basis I imagine.
 
I found this link, please what are people's views? On the tech itself and is are the Chinese people oppressed? Link
The question of oppression would likely be considered a political discussion?

Regards the link, this is from 3½ years ago, have you looked at anything more recent about how this has panned out?
 
I didn't pay much more than passing attention at the time so may have some detail wrong, but I believe Apple just recently had to pull their AI news collation app because it had repeatedly attributed 'hallucinated' news articles to providers such as the BBC. Apple dug their heels in for a while but they were clearly unable to resolve it in a timely fashion and had to pull what apparently was touted as a flagship AI product (i.e. major selling point).

How you measure the impact of that against the (imho) despicable Co-pilot lies and (again imho) data theft, is going to be difficult and would probably have to be considered on a case by case basis I imagine.
Yeah, they had to pull it. I fully expect that the AI aggregation news app will be shelved for a very long time. Generally Apple retires products that fail that spectacularly. It will probably reappear in a few years as basically an AI curated news feed, basically the same as you get currently but with more articles based on what you might be interested in.

This is basically what happened with mobile.me when it was a total embarrassment at launch. It limped on for a while as a free service before it was replaced by iCloud. The mobile.me name was considered toxic by that point and iCloud was a bit less ambitious, at least to begin with.

But usually with Apple they just bin a product that causes them headaches, like the social media features they added to iTunes, the Apple HiFi, and butterfly keyboards.
 
But usually with Apple they just bin a product that causes them headaches, like the social media features they added to iTunes, the Apple HiFi, and butterfly keyboards.
That's a major difference between Microsoft and other Linux based systems. In Linux programs are subject to the theory of evolution, the weak die out and only those fit for purpose survive. Microsoft will keep flogging the same dead horse until long after it's started to smell bad.
 
That's a major difference between Microsoft and other Linux based systems. In Linux programs are subject to the theory of evolution, the weak die out and only those fit for purpose survive. Microsoft will keep flogging the same dead horse until long after it's started to smell bad.
But you can't deny it made them exceptionally wealthy? 🙄😏
 
While I've every respect for Hinton as a scientist, I found this disappointing myself. He's attributing anthropic attributes to AI's without any explanation beyond that "they are conscious" without explaining what that means and how it compares to our consciousness, it all seemed predicated on his possibly correct but unexplained views.
He also isn't defining the different types of AI and how they are (or could/would be) used, and the different techniques used and how, it felt like an opinion - maybe he just feels a proper explanation is inappropriate to mass audiences, but seems to be presenting an uncompelling argument regardless, and more relying on reputation instead.

To use a simple example of what I think was poor argument, he claimed technology hasn't lead to job loses using ATM's as an example, but the fact of the matter I think you'll find is that with the introduction of banking automation the number of high street branches has drastically diminished. One of the major drivers of automation is the reduction of costs in the form of employee's wages which often count as one of the highest expenses a company may have.

Another was the thought experiment of replacing a single neuron with an artificial neuron and claiming this shows AI's can be conscious, but is simplistic and conveniently ignores any arguments against that being a linear rule (that if one neuron is replaced with no loss, then they all can be) and ignores the fact that that replicated artificial neuron could only come about by copying the original biological neuron which only came to be because of all it's neighbouring biological neurons. Maybe he's trying to present an 'explanation for dummies' so to speak, but if so, I think it's a poor one.

AI isn't going to take us over in the foreseeable future, it's just going to empower already powerful humans even further and give them ever greater control, which is going to be one of the primary targets for them when enabling/creating those AI's.
 
I'm currently holding out as long as possible because every new cell phone seems to come with AI, and I really don't want that forced on me - not for all that I use my phone for - not even for all that I use my laptop with, still. Boo.
 
A lot of people I know, I have overheard talking and now this news story, e-bike scooter batteries exploding and causing housefires, such a shame if anyone was to die as a result of one of these housefires or a pet or pets! here is a link to the story
 
A lot of people I know, I have overheard talking and now this news story, e-bike scooter batteries exploding and causing housefires, such a shame if anyone was to die as a result of one of these housefires or a pet or pets! here is a link to the story
Lithium Ion batteries can be very dangerous, but it has to be said that its very rare that this sort of thing happens. Just about everything portable has a Lithium Ion battery in it these days. The issue is that people don't often understand the warning signs when a battery has become potentially dangerous. In the case of an electric scooter this might be significantly reduced operating time or range.

Often the batteries are deep inside the device where they aren't visible so any physical signs of danger, such as the battery swelling aren't seen. Also things like scooters may be left unused over the winter in places like the UK and not charged for several months which often leads to the batteries swelling, then the weather picks up and they get put on charge.

If you have a phone, laptop or power bank that seems to be swelling up, never try to charge it and take it as soon as possible to be disposed of safely or at least have the battery removed. Things like electric scooters should probably be checked by service centers each year to make sure the batteries are good.

I had two battery power banks swell up a few months ago. When I discovered them I put them inside a metal container and put them outside until I could take them to the local recycling center. They had integrated solar panels so keeping them out of the sun was doubly important.
 
"Has technology gone too far?" I last responded to this thread nearly 2 years go. Since 2023, much has happened within the realm of robotics and artificial intelligence. Tesla, Mercedes, Boston Dynamics, and several other companies seem to be in the race to produce robots, that essentially, are specifically designed to replace humans within the workplace. They come in several forms, the majority will be found in the production of goods and food, at least initially. Then the humanoid robots will be designed to replace the rest of us within the service industries. It will be a different world in 5-10 years, a lot different.

The unfortunate reality that most people do not fully grasp is that the prime directive of any business is not only survival, but growth. It's an entity in and of itself. Human beings need salaries, benefits, vacation time, pregnancy leave, lunch breaks and bathroom breaks, and to be social. The price point for a Tesla Optimus humanoid robot will be around $25,000 (once production scales), which means a business can purchase 1-4 robots for 1 year's salary of a human, pay for itself in a few months, and from then on, for the most part, will be pennies an hour in labor costs, and the amount of work, per unit, per day, will far exceed a human worker. Human beings, for the most part, are liabilities, not assets. The gross domestic product (GDP) will likely 10X in countries that embrace this. The costs of production, due in part from economies of scale, will be dirt cheap. We will live in a world of abundance, a world where the cost of living drops dramatically. We will see deflation like nothing we've ever witnessed.

However, and this is huge, what do humans do? Many of us wake up with a purpose in life and tie our personal identities to our profession, a doctor, an engineer, a lawyer, whatever. What happens when A.I. and robotics replace nearly all professions? What do we do for personal income? Some talk already of "universal income". Will there be a world of "extreme corporations and businesses" with a layer of "extreme socialism"? How do we both control the potential for waste, fraud, and abuse from nefarious players within government bureaucracies, whilst maximizing the prosperity, equity, and equality of the world's citizens? It will require a complete "rewrite" of governments and socio-economics. Will it be A.I. that gives us the answers? That requires the proper questions. Maybe A.I., given that it has access to all the world's knowledge, if designed for maximum truth seeking, could give us that balanced analysis, without the influence of human cognitive bias, sociopathy, and psychopathy.

An exciting and scary time for a lot of people over the next 10 years. Production of Tesla Optimus begins in a few months. 5000 units, this year, by 2026, 50,000 units in 2027, 500,000 units in 2028, 5,000,000 in 2029. Every company around the world will be the market, and the demand will exceed supply. Show the robot what to do, it will have the ability to write its own code, mimic whatever it has observed, and with a Wi-Fi connection will have access to all the world's knowledge, via Grok, DeepSeek, etc. Many other robotics companies to follow. Corporations in every sector will be forced to adapt or die. Expect roughly 3 robots for every human on Earth,...in 10 years. Things will happen so dramatically, so quickly, it will be the most disruptive thing that Earth has ever seen since the meteor that killed the dinosaurs. Those that can quickly adapt, will survive. Get ready. The train has left the station.

We need some seriously smart minds and leaders to solve these problems, which I don't think we have, unfortunately. I don't have faith in humanity to solve this conundrum. It may be that damned if you do, damned if you don't, A.I. will cause a lot of problems, but it may be that A.I. will be able to pull us out of those problems, as well.
 
"Has technology gone too far?" I last responded to this thread nearly 2 years go. Since 2023, much has happened within the realm of robotics and artificial intelligence. Tesla, Mercedes, Boston Dynamics, and several other companies seem to be in the race to produce robots, that essentially, are specifically designed to replace humans within the workplace. They come in several forms, the majority will be found in the production of goods and food, at least initially. Then the humanoid robots will be designed to replace the rest of us within the service industries. It will be a different world in 5-10 years, a lot different.

The unfortunate reality that most people do not fully grasp is that the prime directive of any business is not only survival, but growth. It's an entity in and of itself. Human beings need salaries, benefits, vacation time, pregnancy leave, lunch breaks and bathroom breaks, and to be social. The price point for a Tesla Optimus humanoid robot will be around $25,000 (once production scales), which means a business can purchase 1-4 robots for 1 year's salary of a human, pay for itself in a few months, and from then on, for the most part, will be pennies an hour in labor costs, and the amount of work, per unit, per day, will far exceed a human worker. Human beings, for the most part, are liabilities, not assets. The gross domestic product (GDP) will likely 10X in countries that embrace this. The costs of production, due in part from economies of scale, will be dirt cheap. We will live in a world of abundance, a world where the cost of living drops dramatically. We will see deflation like nothing we've ever witnessed.

However, and this is huge, what do humans do? Many of us wake up with a purpose in life and tie our personal identities to our profession, a doctor, an engineer, a lawyer, whatever. What happens when A.I. and robotics replace nearly all professions? What do we do for personal income? Some talk already of "universal income". Will there be a world of "extreme corporations and businesses" with a layer of "extreme socialism"? How do we both control the potential for waste, fraud, and abuse from nefarious players within government bureaucracies, whilst maximizing the prosperity, equity, and equality of the world's citizens? It will require a complete "rewrite" of governments and socio-economics. Will it be A.I. that gives us the answers? That requires the proper questions. Maybe A.I., given that it has access to all the world's knowledge, if designed for maximum truth seeking, could give us that balanced analysis, without the influence of human cognitive bias, sociopathy, and psychopathy.

An exciting and scary time for a lot of people over the next 10 years. Production of Tesla Optimus begins in a few months. 5000 units, this year, by 2026, 50,000 units in 2027, 500,000 units in 2028, 5,000,000 in 2029. Every company around the world will be the market, and the demand will exceed supply. Show the robot what to do, it will have the ability to write its own code, mimic whatever it has observed, and with a Wi-Fi connection will have access to all the world's knowledge, via Grok, DeepSeek, etc. Many other robotics companies to follow. Corporations in every sector will be forced to adapt or die. Expect roughly 3 robots for every human on Earth,...in 10 years. Things will happen so dramatically, so quickly, it will be the most disruptive thing that Earth has ever seen since the meteor that killed the dinosaurs. Those that can quickly adapt, will survive. Get ready. The train has left the station.

We need some seriously smart minds and leaders to solve these problems, which I don't think we have, unfortunately. I don't have faith in humanity to solve this conundrum. It may be that damned if you do, damned if you don't, A.I. will cause a lot of problems, but it may be that A.I. will be able to pull us out of those problems, as well.
Unfortunately, AI is based on searching for similar pre-existing patterns, and is inherently poor at original, creative work. However, we don't need AI to do the thinking needed to find solutions to humanity's problems. What we need is to regain control of the economy so that it benefits as many people as possible, instead of as few as possible, the tendency of capitalism. Technology is going too far for a species that did not learn to prevent serious wealth concentration during the agricultural phase of development. As soon as we developed agriculture and the ability to store a year's worth of grain, we have been ruled by the people in charge of that wealth.
A carpenter can buy an air nailer or screw gun, and finish his work faster without affecting his pay. Just imagine a world where companies are not allowed to own robots. The coming wave would be sold to people who would then send them to work and collect the pay. Seeing the wisdom in that, and having time to think and study, the people would then vote to tax the rich back to ordinary citizens, selling off the big machines and facilities to worker owned co-ops.
 
Unfortunately, AI is based on searching for similar pre-existing patterns, and is inherently poor at original, creative work. However, we don't need AI to do the thinking needed to find solutions to humanity's problems. What we need is to regain control of the economy so that it benefits as many people as possible, instead of as few as possible, the tendency of capitalism. Technology is going too far for a species that did not learn to prevent serious wealth concentration during the agricultural phase of development. As soon as we developed agriculture and the ability to store a year's worth of grain, we have been ruled by the people in charge of that wealth.
A carpenter can buy an air nailer or screw gun, and finish his work faster without affecting his pay. Just imagine a world where companies are not allowed to own robots. The coming wave would be sold to people who would then send them to work and collect the pay. Seeing the wisdom in that, and having time to think and study, the people would then vote to tax the rich back to ordinary citizens, selling off the big machines and facilities to worker owned co-ops.
The issue is we haven't gone through the process of "F around and find out". Your example of the carpenter and the air nailer or screw gun, is really no different from a manufacturer buying a fleet of robots. These are tools that allow the manufacturer to complete work faster, whilst dramatically dropping the costs. If you are paying a human worker $20, 30, 40/hr and the robot can do it for $0.20, 0.30, 0.40/hr and increase productivity, the manufacturer would be stupid not to, because competitors will. To make the suggestion that companies are not allowed to own robots, well, we haven't run this experiment yet to understand the potential impacts, both short-term and long-term. Initially, when the robots become available, there will be almost an unlimited demand for them. What happens to society afterward will be something we have no frame of reference for. A mix of good and bad, for sure.

As I suggested in my previous post, if say 90% of humans do not have an income from a job, then there will be no money spent to drive the economy, even if goods and services are dirt cheap and everyone has access. Money has to flow from somewhere, so it will have to be sourced from businesses (corporate taxes), pumped into the government, and then distributed to the masses via a "universal income" program. This means a complete rewrite of the tax codes. Then, of course, governments being governments, bureaucracies being bureaucracies, especially when it comes to socialism, will this universal income be enough for the masses to live comfortably, or will the masses be in extreme poverty, with an ultra-wealthy oligarchy, as in every other historical example of socialism? I hope the economists making these decisions will realize that whether we end up with a capitalist society, socialist society, or some combination, that money, and people spending money, is what drives economies and prosperity. How all this gets distributed will make or break the system.

One could suggest that the driving forces for any economy is the flow of money from point A to point B, similar to water pressure in your home. If there is low water pressure, then the water trickles from the tap. If the driving forces for the economy are low, the economy will suffer, as will the people. The idea here is to find that "sweet spot" that allows the money to flow at a sufficient "driving pressure" that the economy and people thrive.
 
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The issue is we haven't gone through the process of "F around and find out". Your example of the carpenter and the air nailer or screw gun, is really no different from a manufacturer buying a fleet of robots. These are tools that allow the manufacturer to complete work faster, whilst dramatically dropping the costs. If you are paying a human worker $20, 30, 40/hr and the robot can do it for $0.20, 0.30, 0.40/hr and increase productivity, the manufacturer would be stupid not to, because competitors will. To make the suggestion that companies are not allowed to own robots, well, we haven't run this experiment yet to understand the potential impacts, both short-term and long-term. Initially, when the robots become available, there will be almost an unlimited demand for them. What happens to society afterward will be something we have no frame of reference for. A mix of good and bad, for sure.

As I suggested in my previous post, if say 90% of humans do not have an income from a job, then there will be no money spent to drive the economy, even if goods and services are dirt cheap and everyone has access. Money has to flow from somewhere, so it will have to be sourced from businesses (corporate taxes), pumped into the government, and then distributed to the masses via a "universal income" program. This means a complete rewrite of the tax codes. Then, of course, governments being governments, bureaucracies being bureaucracies, especially when it comes to socialism, will this universal income be enough for the masses to live comfortably, or will the masses be in extreme poverty, with an ultra-wealthy oligarchy, as in every other historical example of socialism? I hope the economists making these decisions will realize that whether we end up with a capitalist society, socialist society, or some combination, that money, and people spending money, is what drives economies and prosperity. How all this gets distributed will make or break the system.

One could suggest that the driving forces for any economy is the flow of money from point A to point B, similar to water pressure in your home. If there is low water pressure, then the water trickles from the tap. If the driving forces for the economy are low, the economy will suffer, as will the people. The idea here is to find that "sweet spot" that allows the money to flow at a sufficient "driving pressure" that the economy and people thrive.
My point is that it is better to avoid having to get the government to tax the corporations and distribute the profits from robots. The government is run by the rich, and would do a very bad job. If the displaced workers own the robots, the money goes to them directly, and they get to manage their own affairs. Rich people are basically parasites who feel entitled to cheat us into providing them with outrageous luxuries, and have no qualms about starting a war just to sell guns. They have been regularly assassinating progressive leaders to stay in power, and conspiring to avoid all consequences. Crowd funding has replaced the only social utility of millionaires.
We both know of people who have ten times more than we do, and others who have ten times less, but we can't really imagine their daily concerns. Imagine how unconcerned a billionaire must feel about us, with other billionaires all around. Psychopaths are so slippery that they get a new scam going before we have finished signing a law against their last one. The only law broad enough to stymie them, AFAIK, is a blanket prohibition against private wealth. The richest person should only have ten times more than the poorest person (ascetics excepted) on a bell curve, so almost everyone has similar wealth, and we don't have to worry about locks, etc. The range of talent is greater, but talent works for self-expression and is inhibited by great financial risk.
 
My point is that it is better to avoid having to get the government to tax the corporations and distribute the profits from robots. The government is run by the rich, and would do a very bad job. If the displaced workers own the robots, the money goes to them directly, and they get to manage their own affairs. Rich people are basically parasites who feel entitled to cheat us into providing them with outrageous luxuries, and have no qualms about starting a war just to sell guns. They have been regularly assassinating progressive leaders to stay in power, and conspiring to avoid all consequences. Crowd funding has replaced the only social utility of millionaires.
We both know of people who have ten times more than we do, and others who have ten times less, but we can't really imagine their daily concerns. Imagine how unconcerned a billionaire must feel about us, with other billionaires all around. Psychopaths are so slippery that they get a new scam going before we have finished signing a law against their last one. The only law broad enough to stymie them, AFAIK, is a blanket prohibition against private wealth. The richest person should only have ten times more than the poorest person (ascetics excepted) on a bell curve, so almost everyone has similar wealth, and we don't have to worry about locks, etc. The range of talent is greater, but talent works for self-expression and is inhibited by great financial risk.
An interesting model, that is, send your robot to work for you. Are you suggesting that your robot would be paid your "living wage"? You would be responsible for the purchase price, insurance, all the maintenance, software updates, and daily charging costs.

In this "capitalist" model:
1. Low income folks, folks on some form of financial assistance, might not have the resources to purchase a robot, nor the associated costs. Furthermore, in a world of robot workers, few employers are going to hire humans knowing the productivity differences between the two. The poor will remain poor because they might not be able to participate in the economy.

2. Middle class folks would be able to afford 2-4 robots, and the be able to pull in the income from, potentially improving gross incomes.

3. Wealthy will be able to afford entire fleets of robots, further pushing their income upwards.

4. Prices for goods and services might not drop, nor will accessibility. No significant changes from the current socio-economic structure. People will still be dissatisfied with wealth disparity.

A "socialist" model, which I am also highly biased against, but may be a necessity in this new world, might work, but this requires a long list of "IFs", as described in a previous post.

I don't see any way of significantly affecting the percentages of nor the rise of the "elites", "uber wealthy", "sociopathic or psychopathic" leaders. As you've suggested, humans have the common personality traits of greed, accumulation of resources, envy, jealousy, and competitiveness. Some more than others, and extremes in these traits lead to either extreme wealth and/or criminal behavior. Luckily, these individuals make up the tiniest percentage of the population. On the other hand, humans also tend to be social creatures, seeking comfort and safety in numbers, are often motivated by fear, and will tend to follow the herd,...all of these traits allow them to become easily influenced and controlled. The vast majority of the "working class" have been brainwashed over the centuries in the sense that their entire social structure and narrative is based upon a "hard days work", that it is "noble" somehow, not realizing that nobody has gotten truly wealthy working for someone else. They are quick to point fingers at the wealthy. Entrepreneurs, the truly successful ones, that 0.001%, do put in a hard days work, probably more hours than anyone, suffer more rejection than anyone, the people who have an insane level of drive, the people who persevere and are highly adaptive, these are the people who rise to the top. People are quick to point out that someone with billions in wealth are somehow "evil", without any concept of the work and rejection to get there, even the ones who got there through advantageous loopholes, NGOs, and criminal activity. They are just jealous and envious of the differences, and it gets twisted into some sort of distorted moral argument. I don't blame these wealthy elites for my lot in life. I don't want their money. I don't pay any attention to them. I take care of myself and my family. I rose from literally nothing with a lot of hard work and discomfort. It's my responsibility, not anyone else's.

It's this same mindset that I have, "I worked hard and earned my money, therefore you can't just have it." that makes me a capitalist, versus a socialist. People with a hand out, whining and complaining, create a rotten taste in my mouth. I have zero empathy for able-bodied people, diverting responsibilities, who make a choice not to contribute to society. Parasites. However, my tune will likely change if the realities of a robot-based workforce transform the landscape, because I know that there must be a driving force behind any economy and survival of any society. A corporate tax structure that pumps money into the economy on the front end, while the masses spending that money on goods and services pumps it back into the corporations on the back end. It's a reciprocity-based economy that keeps the wheel turning. What we don't need is a bloated governmental bureaucracy, full of corruption, that sucks up all the money and doesn't funnel the majority back to the people, which is a huge concern right now, because this is exactly what we have, trillions of tax payer dollars being skimmed off the top in waste, fraud, and abuse by nefarious bureaucrats, NGOs, criminals, and politicians.
 
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