Androgynous essence vs. gender dysphoria

[DuckRabbit]

I am interested in the theory of 'Aspergirls' author Rudy Simone that Asperger girls tend to be androgynous in mannerisms, behaviour and essence. She argues that their thinking patterns and style of clothing may not be typically feminine. They may have an inability to empathise with the feminine point of view, or they are feminine enough but are not recognised or responded to as such, by men.

It is my guess that if this is true, an ‘androgynous essence’ (soul) need not have any correlation with gender identity and sexual orientation. An Asperger girl could easily have a female gender identity and be attracted to men, while having an ‘androgynous essence’. Would you agree?

'Androgynous essence' aside, a few studies have apparently observed a relationship between people with autism and transgender identity. That is, people with autism appear to have higher rates of being transgender compared to neurotypical people. Is anyone familiar with this literature?

Have researchers studied a transgender population and then surveyed how many of them have Asperger Syndrome as well? Or have they surveyed an Asperger population and found that a high percentage feel transgender?

Do you think this might differ between Asperger individuals and those who are autistic?

My intuition is that gender dysphoria, like psychopathy, has nothing to do with autism – although ASD individuals can have gender dysphoria or be psychopathic, just as NTs can have gender dysphoria or be psychopathic.

I’ve also read that people with autism (both cis male and cis female) have higher rates of testosterone, and it has been suggested that this might contribute to gender dysphoria.

First, I can’t see how higher rates of testosterone in ASD *males* would necessarily lead to gender dysphoria.

Second, do you think it’s possible for ASD females who have higher rates of testosterone to *not* feel gender dysphoria?

 

[wanderer03]

I would agree. Gender dysphoria is altogether a different diagnosis with a different symptom set than Autism Spectrum Disorder.

You raised an excellent point because it is entirely possible for someone to simultaneously suffer from psychopathy and ASD.

I am more concerned about the vague and nebulous definition of sociopathy. I'm more concerned about Autistics misdiagnosed as sociopathic.

 

[DuckRabbit]

I'm more concerned about Autistics misdiagnosed as sociopathic.

Agree - this widespread misconception needs correction. Through education? clearer messages? counter-stereotypes?

My understanding is that sociopaths destroy lives on an emotional or psycho-social level whereas psychopaths cross over into physical violence or bloodshed. It is hard enough coming up with agreed diagnostic criteria for ASD; I think it is even more fraught devising necessary-and-sufficient conditions for personality types! I suspect there will always be a measure of vagueness and debate within them.

 

[watersprite]

Your 2nd question. Interesting to ponder, and the following is just me pondering, not stating as fact. Perhaps refers to an initial early-in-life increase in testosterone rather than lifetime higher than average? Anyway. I hope I am understanding your question correctly and am not saying anything offensive here. Yes IMHO think it is possible for a number of inter-related reasons: some aspie females more or less learn to adapt to situations and mimic societal norms for female behaviour, some might have a special interest in this or use chameleon or masks as a coping mechanism, some female aspies have a lot of difficulty with ascribing labels to feeling, building on that we may not be able to define ourselves with the boxes/words that society uses, or we may purposely choose not to define ourselves, or our gender dysphoria may fluctuate over time.

 

[DuckRabbit]

Your 2nd question. Interesting to ponder, and the following is just me pondering, not stating as fact. Perhaps refers to an initial early-in-life increase in testosterone rather than lifetime higher than average? Anyway. I hope I am understanding your question correctly and am not saying anything offensive here. Yes IMHO think it is possible for a number of inter-related reasons: some aspie females more or less learn to adapt to situations and mimic societal norms for female behaviour, some might have a special interest in this or use chameleon or masks as a coping mechanism, some female aspies have a lot of difficulty with ascribing labels to feeling, building on that we may not be able to define ourselves with the boxes/words that society uses, or we may purposely choose not to define ourselves, or our gender dysphoria may fluctuate over time.

I appreciate your speculations kestrel. I guess I'm wanting agreement (or refutation) that one can have an 'androgynous essence' (as Rudy Simone conceives it) without this having any impact on one's gender identity (e.g., without necessarily making one more likely to be transgender). So one's mind/psyche/soul could be androgynous yet one's biology may be cisgender or transgender - either way (assuming there can be such a clear-cut separation of mind and body). You are saying that any 'female' behaviour that a female Asperger shows is *learned* (because their mind is essentially androgynous) - and you give plausible reasons for this. I wonder if a female Asperger's behaviour can be *naturally* 'female' despite having an 'androgynous essence'? This latter position is what I understand Rudy Simone to be saying. But I wonder if your view is more correct: female Aspergers have to learn to behave as stereotypical females.

Establishing whether Aspergers do in fact have higher rates of gender dysphoria than NTs surely depends on methodology. The researchers saying that Asperger individuals are more likely than NTs to experience gender dysphoria --- does anyone know if they've studied an AS population or is their starting point a transgender population? Surely if they are looking at how many transgender people are also Aspergers, their sample is biased?

There is also the possibility that Aspergers feel so odd and different that they mistakenly assume it's because they are 'in the wrong gender' - so they change gender, hoping that will make them belong more, but they find it doesn't. (Does Tony Attwood give this view for children?)

I have no doubt that some Aspergers are genuinely transgender and their lives are genuinely improved by changing gender (same as some NTs who are genuinely transgender). But I wonder if there are at least some Aspergers who 'blame' gender mistakenly for their feelings of non-belonging? This view would suggest that Asperger's do not necessarily have higher rates of gender dysphoria, as some studies claim.

P.S. I have the same concerns as you that I'm saying something offensive here! I hope it's recognised that I'm pondering aloud, trying to get conceptual (and methodological) clarity.

 

[Warmheart]

My sense is that a (possible) temporary spike in free testosterone during early development doesn't mean much regarding how one sees oneself regarding gender later on.

I am autistic, and tend to think of myself as "a person," with little awareness of age, gender, or ethnicity. I exist as a soul wrapped in a quirky, awkward, doofy, active, warm body. I just roll out of bed each morning, ready for my adventures! I have no conscious awareness of being a certain age, gender, ethnicity, etc. Developmentally, three year olds are like this. In this regard, that is where my development is. Wake up, have adventures, repeat.

However, when I am around a hunky man, I'm then VERY much aware of being female! Woohoo!

 

[garnetflower13]

I have always wished that we weren't locked into female or male roles. Lots of time I don't feel like a female or a male, just a person. It always comes as a surprise to me when men try to flirt because I am seeing them as people and not potential mates. I go in and out of this. Since being married, I am more conscious of having a female role to fulfill, but when I was single I definitely felt more androgynous.

 

[DuckRabbit]

I have always wished that we weren't locked into female or male roles. Lots of time I don't feel like a female or a male, just a person. It always comes as a surprise to me when men try to flirt because I am seeing them as people and not potential mates. I go in and out of this. Since being married, I am more conscious of having a female role to fulfill, but when I was single I definitely felt more androgynous.

Even though you and kestrel suggest Asperger females more or less learn to mimic societal norms for female behaviour, this confirms my theory that this does not have any correlation with gender identity and sexual orientation. I'm getting the impression that while transgender people may have higher rates of ASD (as a few small studies have found), ASD individuals do not necessarily have higher rates of being transgender. It would be interesting to know the rates of gender dysmorphia in the NT population vs in the Asperger population. I'm guessing the prevalence is proportionally the same...

 

[Lena_C]

Yes, they're totally different thing.
As an aspie who interested in transgender topic, I tend to believe there aren't only two gender, it makes no conflict if one have both gender(biological and mental).
That being said, it would be more reasonable to describe someone feminine or masculine.
Being a feminine guy doesn't make you a transwoman, being a masculine girl doesn't make you a transman.
I know some boys who is quite feminine, some of them is straight but some of them is gay.
So nothing to do with sexual orientation and gender identity.
There're more to do if we want to define a transgender.
But personally, I do have some androgynous essence.
Currently I try to deal with the feminine style, but my system (brain) is the same, I can think in both sexes.

 

[DuckRabbit]

Yes, they're totally different thing.
As an aspie who interested in transgender topic, I tend to believe there aren't only two gender, it makes no conflict if one have both gender(biological and mental).
That being said, it would be more reasonable to describe someone feminine or masculine.
Being a feminine guy doesn't make you a transwoman, being a masculine girl doesn't make you a transman.
I know some boys who is quite feminine, some of them is straight but some of them is gay.
So nothing to do with sexual orientation and gender identity.
There're more to do if we want to define a transgender.
But personally, I do have some androgynous essence.
Currently I try to deal with the feminine style, but my system (brain) is the same, I can think in both sexes.

Thanks for this. That's a good distinction - feminine and masculine rather than male and female. It allows the necessary detachment from gender identity and sexual orientation. I wonder if what you say applies equally to NTs? i.e., when studies say "transgender people [as commonly understood] are more likely to be ASD", it does not necessarily follow that ASD people are more likely to be transgender.

 

[Lena_C]

Thanks for this. That's a good distinction - feminine and masculine rather than male and female. It allows the necessary detachment from gender identity and sexual orientation. I wonder if what you say applies equally to NTs? i.e., when studies say "transgender people [as commonly understood] are more likely to be ASD", it does not necessarily follow that ASD people are more likely to be transgender.

Indeed, that applies to everyone.
But actually, I doubt the credibility of "transgender people are more likely to be ASD", it makes me feel like something illogical, like "Gay people are more likely infected by HIV". In fact that are some statistic tricks. LGBT is minority so the percentage of "member" who infected by HIV is relatively higher than the majority society. That's normal and understandable. Statistic can be misleading if we don't look deep enough.

 

[pax]

I read an interesting article awhile ago that gives 4 or 5 different measures of "sexuality" for want of a better term. (I can't remember how the article phrased it. If I find it I will post it)
1. Gender ( male or female, or intersex)
2. Gender identity. (whether the person identifies as male female, or neither)
3. Sexuality (who they are attracted to.)
4. How they present themselves to the outside world ( male, female or androgynous)
It was interesting.

 

[The Outsider]

I've heard of some sort of connection between being autistic and transgender. I haven't looked much into this yet to come to a good conclusion either way. They are indeed separate issues, but I can't be entirely sure why there can be a connection just yet. To not go into a life story here, I'll skip most of the details. I believe I can relate to an androgynous essence. I acted mostly masculine in my childhood due to my hobbies. Nerd interests like video games and the Internet are considered masculine. I wasn't really trying to go out of my way to be manly.

These days my hobbies are still mostly the same and still fall under a "boys club". However, I consider myself female and I'm making the painful efforts to physically reflect that. I'm not really worried if something is considered masculine or feminine if I want to do it. I have no desire at all to date men. I'm already breaking a bunch of gender norms, so why should I worry about trying to confirm to a different set of them? If I get considered a girly girl or tomboy, then so be it.

Given the concept of tomboys, I know it's entirely possible that women can act masculine while being attracted only to men and not being transgender at all. It works the other way around too for effeminate men, so I do agree in that aspect.

 

[DuckRabbit]

LGBT is minority so the percentage of "member" who infected by HIV is relatively higher than the majority society.

Do you mean this is a biased perception, not based on actual probabilities?

I am also sceptical of the finding "transgender people have higher rates of ASD" - although this is usually prefaced by "a small number of case studies has found..." I just can't see why that would be the case - unless people are mis-attributing their sense of non-belonging to a particular gender to "autism/ social difficulties". Or perhaps their gender dysphoria has prevented them from learning the social skills of their own gender group - although again, I can't see why that would necessarily be the case. I think if someone has social-political neurological hardwiring, it will manifest as good social skills regardless of whether one is 'cisgender' or 'transgender'.

 

[DuckRabbit]

I read an interesting article awhile ago that gives 4 or 5 different measures of "sexuality" for want of a better term. (I can't remember how the article phrased it. If I find it I will post it)
1. Gender ( male or female, or intersex)
2. Gender identity. (whether the person identifies as male female, or neither)
3. Sexuality (who they are attracted to.)
4. How they present themselves to the outside world ( male, female or androgynous)
It was interesting.

Yes, I think it's good how (some) societies are increasingly recognising that these different constructs may or may not line up within a person. A pity the DSM has not retained this level of nuance regarding Asperger Syndrome and autism. Do you feel people are recognising the DSM-5's new classification or are people generally continuing to use the more refined one?

 

[Lena_C]

Do you mean this is a biased perception, not based on actual probabilities?

I am also sceptical of the finding "transgender people have higher rates of ASD" - although this is usually prefaced by "a small number of case studies has found..." I just can't see why that would be the case - unless people are mis-attributing their sense of non-belonging to a particular gender to "autism/ social difficulties". Or perhaps their gender dysphoria has prevented them from learning the social skills of their own gender group - although again, I can't see why that would necessarily be the case. I think if someone has social-political neurological hardwiring, it will manifest as good social skills regardless of whether one is 'cisgender' or 'transgender'.

It is, but also the damn statistical skills misleading the sheep, it's all about political science.