Polchinski
Active Member
It is interesting that, in the first paragraph of "Sola Fide" link, it mentioned Methodists as an example of people that don't believe in faith alone. I was assuming that they did, because they are Protestant. So its nice to learn otherwise.
One thing I knew about Methodists, though, is that they believe in free will -- in contrast to Presbiterians that believe in predestination. More generally, different Christian denominations can be placed on Arminian vs Calvinism spectrum, where Arminians believe in free will, Calvinists believe in predestination, and most churches are somewhere in between. So, on this spectrum, Methodists are Arminian, Presbiterians are Calvinists and I assumed Baptists are split.
What I didn't realize, though, is that Arminian side of Protestants believes in works based salvation. I was assuming that, for as long as we talk about Protestants, both sides believe in salvation by faith-alone. The question is whether to believe or not to believe is a choice the person makes (Arminian view) or whether God predestines people to believe or not to (Calvinist view). I assumed Protestants are split between both views, yet all believe in salvation by faith alone.
Yes, I knew about works based theologies, but I thought that would be either Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. And, again, I didn't know that it correlates to free will vs predestination either. Because, within the work-based context, you can still ask yourself a question "are the works that you do your free choice, or did God predestined you to do those works".
Long story short, I simply assumed that free will vs predestination and works vs faith are two separate dimensions. I didn't know there was a correlation between the two.
One question I was having for many years -- and still have, I just pushed it aside -- is the following. The argument in favor of salvation being "by faith alone" goes along the following lines. God's standard is perfection. In order to be saved by works, the works have to be perfect. Since we have sinful nature (due to Adam and Eve sin), we are not perfect. So none of our works are good in God's eyes. And therefore our only way out is Jesus' sacrifice -- that is to be accepted by faith. But now my question was: if we can't do "perfect works", then we can't have "perfect faith" either. So, if God's standard is perfection, then nobody has "perfect faith" in God's eyes and, therefore, nobody meets the criteria of "being saved by faith". In other words, I just repeated their own argument as to why we can't be saved by works, replaced the word "works" with "faith", and produced the same exact argument against being saved by faith.
Now, within the Calvinist context, there is an answer to this question. In particular, the Calvinist argument is that its right: nobody can *produce* a perfect faith themselves. But the point here is that we don't have to produce it, God produces it for us. Since God is perfect, then yes God can produce "perfect faith". But then, if faith is God's doing rather than your own doing, then one can ask "why didn't God just produce faith in everyone, why did He produce faith only in some people". And then Calvinists would say that God simply "decided" ahead of time to send some people to heaven and others to hell so He either "produced faith" or not, depending on the choice He made ahead of time. Thats where the doctrine of predestination comes from.
Well, I never subscribed to predestination because I found it unfair. What I was trying to believe was "Arminian version of faith alone": namely that yes, salvation is by faith alone, but whether or not to have faith is our choice. And thats where I got the question as to "how can we produce perfect faith in ourselves if we are not perfect", which I never got answered.
Now, could it be that the answer to my question is in the link you posted. Namely, that there is no such thing as an Arminian Christian believing in faith alone -- precisely due to the problem that I found?
If thats the case then one follow-up question I have is the following. While yes, I said most Protestants believe in faith-alone, the group of Protestants that embody that concept the most are Baptists. On the other hand, the Protestants that embody Calvinism are Presbyterians. As for Baptists I was assuming they were split between Calvinism and Arminianism. Or was my assumption about Baptists being spit on Calvinism/Arminianism wrong? Are Baptists also all Calvinists? Or was I wrong in assuming that Baptists believe in faith alone and it is only Calvinist Baptists that do?
P.S. As I was typing about "producing faith in ourselves" I was going to type "faith is our own doing, not God's" but then I stopped myself and was like "wait a second, do I really want to say we are doing something like that apart from God?" And then I realize that, even within "Arminian faith alone" context what I really want to say is that it is God's doing while we have a choice to let God work in us or not. So maybe thats where I could have faith alone faith within Arminian context.
But anyway, its still interesting to know the answer whether among other Christians the predestination vs free will and faith vs works are two separate parameters or if they are correlated.
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