ASD1 children in public education

[kenaij]

Hi,
So my son just got his first report card. In the past I have almost always been in agreement with my children's teachers. He is 5 and is going to the next step in school.
In the Netherlands children go to school at age 4. And have 2 years in which they mostly play, learn some letters and number. They develop basic motoric skills via drawing and building things. When they are 6 they will actually learn to read and do calculus etc. (explained in short)
My son has not been officially diagnosed, but shows signs of ASD1. My father is officially diagnosed, I`m not, and am not going to get a diagnosis because I feel it would not change anything for me. My wife and parents all see the signs in my son. Up until now I have always said my son does not need diagnosis until it starts getting in his was. Since my father and I both went to public school. Only at the higher levels did we not do well.
But reading his report card and seeing so many misinterpretations of my son's behaviour has started to make me thing about the neccesity of getting him diagnosed.
Right now there are simple things. He has somewhat of a speach problem where he is unable to make certain sounds. With help most of the errors have been unlearned but he still cannot pronounce the R. Which is a very important letter in the Dutch language. His teachers stated he is unwilling to stand up for himself because he is ashamed of his speach imperment. But in the same colom of text she states whenever there is a word he knows the meaning of and his classmated don`t he is willing to stand in front of the class and explain the word. To me, that is misreading my child. Because if he is ashamed of his speech why would he stand in front of the class. She cannot see that under stress he shuts down and just lets situations be because the confrontation makes him shut down (much like his father)
Another thing were her comments about drawing. If you tell my son it is time to draw and he should draw a certain things he most likely won`t do it if he does not feel he wants to. That is the gist of it, it goes deeper. A lot of behaviour looks similar to people with PDA. She she states he is unable to hold a pencil correctly and does not have the motor capacity to write and draw. While at him, he holds pencils almost perfectly like an adult and can draw between the lines very well (for a 5 year old).
Now I have good hopes for his next year. He has had his new teacher ones and they had to color in a big number 6. Because they will go to her class and they will all turn 6 in her class. My son asked her, not demanded but asked, if he could color the number 9 instead by flipping the paper around. Because he wants to be 8, and if he is 8 he will turn 9. She allowed it. Because it was not really about the number 6, it was about seeing how the children hold their pencils. He started to do his coloring very enthoustiastically.
However. If we reach the same point with this new teacher I feel like it is time to get my son tested. Either to let his teachers know he needs to be approached differently with certain things, or to get him into specialised education.

Sorry for the very long post. Have any other parents with similar children experienced this? And what did you do? Or have any of the younger members here experienced something similar? My father and I have. But the educational system has changed so much since then that I find it hard to compare. Knowledge about ASD has improved a lot since I was in primary school.

 

[Outdated]

A lot of teachers aren't all that bright, and not all of them are very good with children either. I think it would be a good idea if you can engage with his teachers a bit more, some will be more understanding than others though, people will always be people.

And here's a link to one of my stories in another thread, post #33 if your browser doesn't take you directly to it. It's just a demonstration of how wrong teachers can get it and yet somehow I still ended up with help that I needed. The only reason I didn't like reading out loud is because I was becoming non-verbal.

https://www.autismforums.com/threads/diagnostic-testing-to-identify-struggles.44747/post-1010129

 

[kenaij]

A lot of teachers aren't all that bright, and not all of them are very good with children either. I think it would be a good idea if you can engage with his teachers a bit more, some will be more understanding than others though, people will always be people.

And here's a link to one of my stories in another thread, post #33 if your browser doesn't take you directly to it. It's just a demonstration of how wrong teachers can get it and yet somehow I still ended up with help that I needed. The only reason I didn't like reading out loud is because I was becoming non-verbal.

https://www.autismforums.com/threads/diagnostic-testing-to-identify-struggles.44747/post-1010129

That was a very good read. Thank you!
My son is also getting speech therapy. They say it is working. But it has been 2 years since he started. To me. The change can just be because he is 2 years older. The teacher he has for speech therapy, together with one of her interns have suggested he was highly intelligent. When I suggested autism she said it could also be possible, but she has no experiece with autistic children. There are just a pretty big number of things together that make me think about autism. First my father and myself. But besides the speech problem, the way he runs and walks is also different from children his age. When he was just about to turn 5 he still ran like a toddler. By the school suggestion we sent him to physiotherapy. Which helped a little but not much. It is the way he regulates his emotions. Or actually going from really happy to really sad. There is very little in between. His struggle to understand facial expressions and tone of voice. Where only when you display them extremely will he get that you are truly 'angry' with him. Otherwise he thinks you are just joking around like he is. When he gets out of the car and instantly grabs dry leaves and crumbles them while studying what the leaves do. I could go on for a bit. Basically there are just a lot of things together.

And I really do think he is very intelligent. He only has to know the numbers up until 20 right now. But he can recognise every number up till 100. Above he still struggles. Because Dutch numbers are stupid. For example 89, is said like nine and eighty. So you read them from right to left. But when you go above a hundred the rules change. So 189 is one hunderd, nine and eighty. So I think that is why he still struggles a bit with that. And he knows a lot more words than the average child his age does. In Dutch they average 3000-3500 words at age 5. And from speech therapy test they concluded he knows roughly 4500-5000 words which is the same as an 8 year old. But they also concluded he cannot use all those words effectively.

But I`m getting off topic on my own post now.

 

[Outdated]

No, you're not getting off topic. Not really, it's all part of the same thing and it takes a holistic approach to make sense of any of it. Your own experiences and your father's should be your best advice here, try to put yourselves in his shoes as you would have been. And probably were at some stages.

Autistic children's stages are different to normal children's stages. His intellectual maturity will be much quicker than others and I strongly suggest that you encourage and feed that. Knowledge is like vegetables, as much as you can push through the front of his head,

His social maturity will be much slower and much more difficult than with many other children, mostly because he knows he's lagging behind and not fitting in somehow but not being able to understand why. In this you can't really help him much, he has to learn his own way. Just create an emotionally safe place for him at home where he can be himself and work through his problems in his own way.

 

[Outdated]

Just create an emotionally safe place for him at home where he can be himself and work through his problems in his own way.

Just thought I should clarify that statement for everyone. I didn't grow up in a happy home. The only time I liked being home was when my parents weren't. One or the other was fine but not both of them together, oh dear.

Not a good environment for hypersensitive kids.

 

[kenaij]

No, you're not getting off topic. Not really, it's all part of the same thing and it takes a holistic approach to make sense of any of it. Your own experiences and your father's should be your best advice here, try to put yourselves in his shoes as you would have been. And probably were at some stages.

Autistic children's stages are different to normal children's stages. His intellectual maturity will be much quicker than others and I strongly suggest that you encourage and feed that. Knowledge is like vegetables, as much as you can push through the front of his head,

His social maturity will be much slower and much more difficult than with many other children, mostly because he knows he's lagging behind and not fitting in somehow but not being able to understand why. In this you can't really help him much, he has to learn his own way. Just create an emotionally safe place for him at home where he can be himself and work through his problems in his own way.

I guess you are right. I felt like I was getting into the place of trying to explain why I think he is autistic. Which ofcourse I don`t officially know. My parents never really expected I was as a child. But looking back now there were a decent amount of signs. In pre-school for example during our breaks I never played with the other children I just sat next to the teacher and looked either at the ground or around me. My parents lived in an appartment next to the school and filmed it ones. While at home I was a really energetic child. When I was very young during new years eve or christmas I ran around the table the entire night. As they saw it back then I was very energetic. Looking at it now I might have been a way to process all the things that were going on. In highschool I would skip classes to be alone in a park. Just to get away from the all. I did not know exaclty why I just knew I had to do it. I did not know anything about autism at the time. Since I`m just starting to figure all this out in the last couple of months, because of reasons, I have been looking back into my past. And really want to prevent my son from unknowingly going through the same thing. My parents were always very loving. And did everything within their knowledge to help me. My father only found out he was autistic 3-4 years ago after decades of burnouts from work.

I don`t know if my son thinks he is different from other children. If he realises he walks differently. He knows he speaks differently. And can get angry when people do not understand him. But at school he does have friends. Mostly girls who like to play pretend household type games. He likes to play it because he has a role. And within that role there are rules and things he has to do. If someone deviates from that role he becomes upset. Right now they are all very young, and I think the behaviour is still close enough to that of the youngest classmates that he does not stand out. I do think next year when it is only children 5 and up it will stand out.
I always wanted to wait with testing untill it started to get in his way. I`m afraid that time might soon come. I will need to convince my wife thou. I think she still feels like everything will be alright with next year's teacher. I do hope she comes to the same conclusion.

 

[Rodafina]

I’m not a parent, but I do have experience in the American school system and working with young children. Things are different than when we were children and many of us grew up not knowing we were autistic and just learning workarounds for getting through school. It was very hard for some of us to do that, and for others, we seemed to excel when there were always large gaps between our skills in our deficits.

My initial thoughts are that it could be very helpful for your son to have a diagnosis going through school. In the United States, anyway, any child with unique needs in a classroom of many is already at a deficit, simply because of the structure of the system. No matter how earnest, educated, and invested teachers are, the demands on them to meet the needs of a wide range of students with inevitably limited resources is quite a challenge.

I think the fact that you’re starting to notice these things now, at age 5, could suggest a pattern into the future. I mean that the specific academic demands of children are just going to get higher, and the teachers will be wanting a certain performance from them. If your child is not meeting their standards in the specific way they are expecting, and they see this as deficits they may be unable to support him the best way possible.

I can imagine some drawbacks to getting diagnosed, so I’m not pushing hard either way here, just thinking… having a document trail for your son as he goes to the school could offer him the best support available. Again, this is only pertaining to the States because I don’t know about elsewhere, but it is hard to get anything out of the standard issue teacher without something on paper. A diagnosis goes a long way for people who are seeking resources In the United States.

 

[kenaij]

I’m not a parent, but I do have experience in the American school system and working with young children. Things are different than when we were children and many of us grew up not knowing we were autistic and just learning workarounds for getting through school. It was very hard for some of us to do that, and for others, we seemed to excel when there were always large gaps between our skills in our deficits.

My initial thoughts are that it could be very helpful for your son to have a diagnosis going through school. In the United States, anyway, any child with unique needs in a classroom of many is already at a deficit, simply because of the structure of the system. No matter how earnest, educated, and invested teachers are, the demands on them to meet the needs of a wide range of students with inevitably limited resources is quite a challenge.

I think the fact that you’re starting to notice these things now, at age 5, could suggest a pattern into the future. I mean that the specific academic demands of children are just going to get higher, and the teachers will be wanting a certain performance from them. If your child is not meeting their standards in the specific way they are expecting, and they see this as deficits they may be unable to support him the best way possible.

I can imagine some drawbacks to getting diagnosed, so I’m not pushing hard either way here, just thinking… having a document trail for your son as he goes to the school could offer him the best support available. Again, this is only pertaining to the States because I don’t know about elsewhere, but it is hard to get anything out of the standard issue teacher without something on paper. A diagnosis goes a long way for people who are seeking resources In the United States.

I think a very big part of the school system is the same in the Netherlands as it is in the states. One big difference is that our high school has 4 basic different levels (7 if you look for details). VMBO, HAVO, VWO are the three major levels (the fourth is mostly for children with very low IQ or mental handycaps) with VMBO having 4 subgroups. Often children with ADHD or ASD go to VMBO. Where support for extra needs is higher. In HAVO and VWO there is pretty much no extra support for things like ADHD and ASD. Because children have a struggle in an areau which does not meet the level for either of the higher levels.
For me, Intellecually I could do the highest, but went to a level below because of social deficits. And a huge lack of interest in subjects I did not care for. Which I basically didn`t put any effort in.
So the support system varies heavily. Between levels of education.

This is the basic Dutch school system. There might be some error here and there. But for understanding the system it is correct enough. Some steps require certain sub-rules.
For me, I started decently in step 1, did a level below my capabilities (intellectually) at step 2. Went 1 level lower in step 3 again. Again intellectually that level was far to easy. But socially it was the most I could master. Mostly because of misundertanding of my needs. When I look at it now. My father was much the same. He ended school at level MBO3, but worked his way up to a job that would require HBO eduation. He just struggled very much to get there.
The biggest reason for this post and me seeking so much information about ASD is to provide my son (if he turns out to be autistic as I suspect he is) his best change in many aspects of his life. Amongs those things is school. I don`t want him to feel like a failure simply because the system is working against him. Like his father has in the past.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

I don`t want him to feel like a failure simply because the system is working against him. Like his father has in the past.

^^This^^

As others have suggested, the public schools in many developed countries are designed for the "typical student". Neurodiverse and autistic students are anything but "typical". You may be in a situation where he may do better with more private instruction, someone who is going to have the patience and understanding to teach him those intellectual "work arounds" that will allow him to perform at a high level. Now whether that is a tutor for a few hours a week to supplement his public education, or actual private instruction, is up to you. As you know public schools have "a way" to teach their students, and if your son doesn't learn "that way", he's going to get frustrated, perhaps loose interest, loose his self-esteem, get teased and bullied, etc. It's not going to be good.

I raised two boys, and like you suggested, the educational system has changed significantly since we were that age, and I think for the worse. My wife and I were quite frustrated with their methods, and frankly, despite both of them eventually doing well at the university-level, I don't think they learned nearly as much as my wife and I did. I think they purposefully went out of their ways to make things a lot more complicated for the kids than need be, and sometimes just skipped or didn't offer some common, basic information. Often, with mathematics, my wife and I learned a simple 2-3 step method, and my boys would learn a very confusing, cumbersome, 4-6 step method that didn't make any sense to us. It was that way no matter what the subject. We couldn't help them with their homework questions. I think if I were a kid in a public school in the US now-a-days, I would fail on many levels. I am not one for conspiracy theories, but if I didn't know any better, I would think it was a mass effort to make the populace dumber and dumber, with less and less useful skills. I hope it's not that way in the Netherlands.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

Hi, kenaij. I went through public education without knowing I was autistic. I understand some of the shame of being different. I recall crying myself to sleep as a young child. Nobody suspected. Intellectually I was advanced but the thing that could have helped me was social coaching. I spent 5th grade at a desk away from other children and had persistent social dysfunction. This really did not matter to me until entering puberty when interacting with peers became important. I wish the best for your son.

 

[kenaij]

^^This^^

As others have suggested, the public schools in many developed countries are designed for the "typical student". Neurodiverse and autistic students are anything but "typical". You may be in a situation where he may do better with more private instruction, someone who is going to have the patience and understanding to teach him those intellectual "work arounds" that will allow him to perform at a high level. Now whether that is a tutor for a few hours a week to supplement his public education, or actual private instruction, is up to you. As you know public schools have "a way" to teach their students, and if your son doesn't learn "that way", he's going to get frustrated, perhaps loose interest, loose his self-esteem, get teased and bullied, etc. It's not going to be good.

I raised two boys, and like you suggested, the educational system has changed significantly since we were that age, and I think for the worse. My wife and I were quite frustrated with their methods, and frankly, despite both of them eventually doing well at the university-level, I don't think they learned nearly as much as my wife and I did. I think they purposefully went out of their ways to make things a lot more complicated for the kids than need be, and sometimes just skipped or didn't offer some common, basic information. Often, with mathematics, my wife and I learned a simple 2-3 step method, and my boys would learn a very confusing, cumbersome, 4-6 step method that didn't make any sense to us. It was that way no matter what the subject. We couldn't help them with their homework questions. I think if I were a kid in a public school in the US now-a-days, I would fail on many levels. I am not one for conspiracy theories, but if I didn't know any better, I would think it was a mass effort to make the populace dumber and dumber, with less and less useful skills. I hope it's not that way in the Netherlands.

I see a blue box saying it is your birthday. If that is indeed the case. Congratulations!

I do get what you say about the seemingly overcomplication of certain subjects. But maybe not to the same extent you describe.
One of the more noticable then is the difference in what they learn when it comes to fixing things on your own. When I was in high school during a class that is directly translated into Technical Class. We would learn how to repair our own bicycle tires. How to repair a leaking tap or piping. Basic stuff like that. I work at a highschool now. Which is more practical education focussed than theoretical. And in this class they now learn how to program a 3d printer. But 95% of the students does not know how to repair their own bicycle wheel.
The school I work at has a pretty decent support system when children with mild symptoms of ADHD or have ASD1 get extra support. When they struggle they could for example get excused from the current class and go to a seperate quite quiet classroom where people get help them in whatever way they need. When they are calmed down they can go back to class. Sadly. About half the teacher do not understand these students correctly and will sent them to detention instead. My direct colleage and I are often involved with teachers that do not understand these children to teach them. To us. These children are all wonderful people. They just function a little differently from the rest.
Sadly. At the higher levels of education all this support is pretty much non excistend. As if children with these struggles do not excist there. I see it mostly as a chicken and egg (that is a thing in English right?) situation.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Sadly. About half the teacher do not understand these students correctly and will sent them to detention instead. My direct colleage and I are often involved with teachers that do not understand these children to teach them. To us. These children are all wonderful people. They just function a little differently from the rest.
Sadly. At the higher levels of education all this support is pretty much non excistend. As if children with these struggles do not excist there. I see it mostly as a chicken and egg (that is a thing in English right?) situation.

Yes. So knowing that, the system your son is entering, and the potential for struggles and failure, perhaps a better way is needed. A "work around", if you will. More than one path to achieving success.

 

[kenaij]

Hi, kenaij. I went through public education without knowing I was autistic. I understand some of the shame of being different. I recall crying myself to sleep as a young child. Nobody suspected. Intellectually I was advanced but the thing that could have helped me was social coaching. I spent 5th grade at a desk away from other children and had persistent social dysfunction. This really did not matter to me until entering puberty when interacting with peers became important. I wish the best for your son.

Thank you. Sounds much like my own story. I did have a friend as a child. Just struggled with maintaining more. In class I was often the odd one out. My friend was giften minded so a lot of our interactions were the same. The reasoning behind it was just different I guess.
In high school I also had a group of guys I was part of. But I was the first one to fall off after we had finish school. for 2 sided reasons.
Never really maintained a friendship since.
If my son is indeed like me. I hope we can come to a place where he can understand why certain things are different for them than for other children. I think the not knowing why is harder then knowing why. Eventhou both might make him struggle.

To this day the exclusion takes place for me. A recent example is at work. We had a photobooth and people were taking pictures. My colleage and I are Janitors and he is pretty outgoing. A group of teachers were going to take a picture and while my colleage and I were standing together a couple meters away from the photobooth they called him to go with them on the picture. But did not even mention me. Similar things have happened in the past when they would for example go out for a drink together. They would ask him. He said he couldn`t come but they could ask me. I never saw them.
In the past this really hurt me. But now that I know that the who I am is not something most of them can deal with. They just need me to do certain jobs for them. They don`t like me for me. Knowing the potential reasoning behind it has made it easier for me to handle.

That is one of the main reasons I would like my son to know early on. To know it is not something that he is doing wrong. But simply because who he is is not compatible with most neurotypicals. That, in my eyes, it is their inability to understand us that makes them not include us.

Sorry for all the walls of text. With so much back story and explaining of things that might seem off-topic when looking at the question I asked. It is just something that is really on my mind. And I feel this is the best place to throw it all out. Because people might actually understand.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

Thank you. Sounds much like my own story. I did have a friend as a child. Just struggled with maintaining more. In class I was often the odd one out. My friend was giften minded so a lot of our interactions were the same. The reasoning behind it was just different I guess.
In high school I also had a group of guys I was part of. But I was the first one to fall off after we had finish school. for 2 sided reasons.
Never really maintained a friendship since.
If my son is indeed like me. I hope we can come to a place where he can understand why certain things are different for them than for other children. I think the not knowing why is harder then knowing why. Eventhou both might make him struggle.

To this day the exclusion takes place for me. A recent example is at work. We had a photobooth and people were taking pictures. My colleage and I are Janitors and he is pretty outgoing. A group of teachers were going to take a picture and while my colleage and I were standing together a couple meters away from the photobooth they called him to go with them on the picture. But did not even mention me. Similar things have happened in the past when they would for example go out for a drink together. They would ask him. He said he couldn`t come but they could ask me. I never saw them.
In the past this really hurt me. But now that I know that the who I am is not something most of them can deal with. They just need me to do certain jobs for them. They don`t like me for me. Knowing the potential reasoning behind it has made it easier for me to handle.

That is one of the main reasons I would like my son to know early on. To know it is not something that he is doing wrong. But simply because who he is is not compatible with most neurotypicals. That, in my eyes, it is their inability to understand us that makes them not include us.

Sorry for all the walls of text. With so much back story and explaining of things that might seem off-topic when looking at the question I asked. It is just something that is really on my mind. And I feel this is the best place to throw it all out. Because people might actually understand.

The hope you have for your son is tangible! That is wonderful.

Added - I am sad at all the small ways we are discounted. i was fortunate in my work that people seemed to be considerate. The only time as a young adult that I felt dismissed was befriending a person who liked Natural History. I taught him paleontology and took him to some wonderful sites, from Devonian reefs to Pennsylvanian estuaries where soft-bodied animals were preserved. At that time the King Tut exhibit was coming to the Field Museum and I dearly wanted to go. He told me that he was going with some friends (traveling from Detroit to Chicago) and, no, there was no room for me. I was crestfallen and felt used and discarded.

 

[kenaij]

Yes. So knowing that, the system your son is entering, and the potential for struggles and failure, perhaps a better way is needed. A "work around", if you will. More than one path to achieving success.

Private or home schooling is not allowed in my country. So basically for primary school the only options are regular public school or something called 'special education'. Special education is mostly for children with a severy form of varying mental conditions. Very low IQ or any other reason they cannot preform in regular public school. We are not at that point yet. These pretty much are the rules until they are 16, or 18 if they do not have a high school diploma at the two highest levels.
But it is a very good thing to keep private tutoring in mind. I myself have a degree as a teacher's assistent so I know a little about teaching basic subjects to children. But if I can`t do it sufficiantly I will keep private tutoring in mind.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

As you know public schools have "a way" to teach their students, and if your son doesn't learn "that way", he's going to get frustrated, perhaps loose interest, loose his self-esteem

One of the first things I learned in teaching canoeing skills was the different ways people learn. One size certainly does not fit well.