Aspies, Geniuses and Einstein.

[total-recoil]

Anyone ever considered the relationship between those of us with HFA, those of us with aspergers and those of us who are geniuses? Let me clarify the similarities as it's kind of interesting.
The genius is essentially someone who becomes aware from a very early age that he (or she) is totally different than everybody else. The said individual may almost immediately begin to outperform his (or her) classmates, even in some cases catching out the teacher. This usually causes the suspected genius to be unpopular, ridiculed or teased so very often there is some attempt to hide away or disguise behaviour in order to try and fit in.
Whereas aspies tend to withdraw purely on account of feeling alienated and not knowing how to relate to others, geniuses may withdraw purely in an effort to try and be normal or hide their abilities.
Notwithstanding, you can be an aspie, a genius or both aspie and genius at the same time. I believe there are cases when someone is a genius without being aspie or may be a genius as well as aspie.
I think what I'm getting at, though, is there are a lot of similarities on the social awkwardness scale. Those highly intellectual people I have met in my time tend to be not so good at social interaction or may even have been prone to major depression and unhappiness, due to not being able to fit in.
Einstein I don't quite know how to place him. I did eavesdrop on one discussion about Einstein on a Physics forum and it sort of irritated me a bit because one or two people were trying to argue people "invented" the autism factor regarding Einstein. It was suggested because Einstein communicated so well at all levels he couldn't have had autism. Totally incorrect, I think. It seems pretty clear Einstein did have aspergers, especially in view of the fact it has been heavily diagnosed in the Jewish immigrant community to Europe.
My bet is Einstein was aspie as well as being a genius but, as I said, I figure there are many geniuses who aren't always aspie (but may well feel very similar to aspies as to social interaction).
HFA people I believe are different still. With HFA you may initially do very poorly at school and be slower to learn to read at the beginning. Then, later on, you can become very high functioning.
I hope this hasn't been too long winded or boring.
P.S. There was a really good Columbo episode on this. Columbo has to go to a kind of IQ club where he meets the world's elite high IQ club members (and all are a bit quirky). That includes Columbo who goes on to pass all the IQ questions thrown his way.

 

[HelloDizzy]

I've wondered if Einstein was an Aspie considering how late he spoke, albeit it was due to logic. (Didn't know that about the Jewish European community, that's what I'm descended from.)

I was personally just assumed to be a genius, as my IQ is usually tested at 173, but I did poorly in school due to boredom. I am officially diagnosed with Aspergers, but other doctors have questioned it due to my glib.

 

[total-recoil]

Don't think IQ is a good test for genius as there are too many factors involved. IQ is like a problem-solving, logic test but to test genius goes a bit deeper I think. Einstein was basically very persistant like a dog with a bone always questioning and questioning and not giving up till he found answers. I do think he had autism, yes. I think Bill Gates does too and find it interesting Gates dropped out of uni as he wanted to be free to do things his own way.

I've wondered if Einstein was an Aspie considering how late he spoke, albeit it was due to logic. (Didn't know that about the Jewish European community, that's what I'm descended from.)

I was personally just assumed to be a genius, as my IQ is usually tested at 173, but I did poorly in school due to boredom. I am officially diagnosed with Aspergers, but other doctors have questioned it due to my glib.

 

[total-recoil]

I've wondered if Einstein was an Aspie considering how late he spoke, albeit it was due to logic. (Didn't know that about the Jewish European community, that's what I'm descended from.)
I was personally just assumed to be a genius, as my IQ is usually tested at 173, but I did poorly in school due to boredom. I am officially diagnosed with Aspergers, but other doctors have questioned it due to my glib.

It was specifically Ashkenazi Jewish people who have very high instances of aspergers syndrome and Einstein is Ashkenazi so there is some genetic factor.
The issue of genius and intelligence I think is complex. I happen to believe personally the brain is capable of far more than we imagine and it can be developed the same as you can develop muscles by using muscles and causing them to get stronger. It makes you wonder how much the media and environment dumbs the population down as well as cultural factors.
I suppose, though, born geniuses tend to be more dogged in their pursuit of a goal and often (like aspies) they don't function well in the routine environment of simply attending classes, taking notes and going home to revise.

 

[smith2267]

IQ scores max out at a certain level, not because there aren't any people smarter, but because there arent enough of them to design a reliable test. I forget the highest reliable score, but you are close to it Dizzy, unless some mistake was made. Not questioning your honesty--you are aspie and as a rule, we dont lie. Just that the odds of me running into someone with an IQ like that make it very surprising.

 

[WildCat]

I'm personally against labeling people like Albert Einstein and Bill Gates as aspies or auties. Not only is the evidence insufficient and contradictory, it's also damaging to the parents of children (and the children as well) diagnosed with autism or Asperger's. I mean, I'm sure many of them probably got told about Einstein's developmental delays and that their child or children could grow up to be the next pioneer in (insert field of study here), only to have to place their now grown children in support centers after trying so hard to integrate them into society.

There may very well be a link between the two, I'm not saying there isn't, but it's not as solid as everyone thinks and the definition of "genius" is too broad that it gets applied to anyone who displays a few traits here and there. This gets me thinking about Temple Grandin again who some people have already labeled as "genius", but she had to work extremely hard to get where she is today, and not every autistic out there is going to possess the same capacities she has. Just saying.

 

[Geordie]

I was personally just assumed to be a genius... but I did poorly in school due to boredom. I am officially diagnosed with Aspergers, but other doctors have questioned it due to my glib.

So did I. As my Myers-Briggs Personality Type is ESTJ, and I'm living in an Asian country where Extroverts are made even more prominent, I also face similar issues like you. School is boring, so my grades are not good, and I know it's really below of what I am capable of. Also, I get lots of stares, 'do you really have Autism?'

I wonder whether having high IQ is a blessing, or a curse. I still don't know.

 

[HelloDizzy]

I'm personally against labeling people like Albert Einstein and Bill Gates as aspies or auties. Not only is the evidence insufficient and contradictory, it's also damaging to the parents of children (and the children as well) diagnosed with autism or Asperger's. I mean, I'm sure many of them probably got told about Einstein's developmental delays and that their child or children could grow up to be the next pioneer in (insert field of study here), only to have to place their now grown children in support centers after trying so hard to integrate them into society.

There may very well be a link between the two, I'm not saying there isn't, but it's not as solid as everyone thinks and the definition of "genius" is too broad that it gets applied to anyone who displays a few traits here and there. This gets me thinking about Temple Grandin again who some people have already labeled as "genius", but she had to work extremely hard to get where she is today, and not every autistic out there is going to possess the same capacities she has. Just saying.

I was tested several times since I was 11 and have always scored between 165-174. These tests are given by professionals.
I lack a large amount of common sense, though.

 

[smith2267]

I was tested several times since I was 11 and have always scored between 165-174. These tests are given by professionals.
I lack a large amount of common sense, though.

Any peculiarities on the tests? As in, an unusual pattern of types of problems you excel at or do not?

 

[Geordie]

I lack a large amount of common sense, though.

Common sense doesn't apply to overly analytical people. Maybe, like us.

Others just won't see how much we really think!

 

[total-recoil]

You do have a good point that it's important not to pressure kids with autism and I didn't want to create that impression. However, let me put it this way: Superficial logic would assume a genius would be somebody who automatically becomes evident to those around him (or her). This individual would go to school, outshine alnd outperform all the other students, be accepted and praised by teachers, befriended by students and then go on to make huge contributions to society. Well, we know now it doesn't work like that. Einstein I think did have autism, although there has been bias on both sides to dispute this. However, if we look at the basic facts, Einstein did find the most routine activities difficult, had major issues relating to people (intimately), was a visual-thinker and felt isolated. He was also of Ashkenazi Jewish heritage which has very high indication for Aspergers (genetic inherited). I'm sure at many stages of his life he was dismissed as an oddball and would have struggled today to hold down a job, given scientists are being made redundant more often and practicality is once again being idealised by society.
An example of a neurotypical genius I think is John Lennon. I found out he was probably dyslexic, was at the bottom class at school, sometimes prone to bursts of temper yet a musical genius. Funny thing about Lennon was he disguised his amazing talent by initially writing boy loves girl songs. This actually frustrated him terribly. Only later did he start to write true Lennon songs such as Day In The Life and Imagine.
Another point is Lennon had very strong views on equality and world peace and was quite intellectual - hard to believe he was a school dunce from Liverpool. The fact he totally withdrew from society also indicates his difficulty relating to the status quo.

I'm personally against labeling people like Albert Einstein and Bill Gates as aspies or auties. Not only is the evidence insufficient and contradictory, it's also damaging to the parents of children (and the children as well) diagnosed with autism or Asperger's. I mean, I'm sure many of them probably got told about Einstein's developmental delays and that their child or children could grow up to be the next pioneer in (insert field of study here), only to have to place their now grown children in support centers after trying so hard to integrate them into society.

There may very well be a link between the two, I'm not saying there isn't, but it's not as solid as everyone thinks and the definition of "genius" is too broad that it gets applied to anyone who displays a few traits here and there. This gets me thinking about Temple Grandin again who some people have already labeled as "genius", but she had to work extremely hard to get where she is today, and not every autistic out there is going to possess the same capacities she has. Just saying.

 

[WildCat]

I don't think there's an exact definition of "genius" here or anywhere. Some become bored with school, probably due to the material being too easy to handle and seeking a further challenge. Others may actually struggle with school and eventually "catch up" (sort of like Einstein, but not quite) and outdo the rest of the peers be it in one subject or field, or even many. Others get the label simply because they've discovered a novel solution to a novel problem, or because they possess certain skills not seen in the general population. I don't think there's a relationship between genius and autism; however, there's certainly a relationship between genius and the human brain and there's no denying that fact.

I guess what I'm saying is is that genius isn't exclusive to just autistics and that the definition can be applied to pretty much anyone at any given time. We may very well be more likely to show traits of genius, and even measure as such, but we're not the only ones here.

 

[total-recoil]

I don't think there's an exact definition of "genius" here or anywhere. Some become bored with school, probably due to the material being too easy to handle and seeking a further challenge. Others may actually struggle with school and eventually "catch up" (sort of like Einstein, but not quite) and outdo the rest of the peers be it in one subject or field, or even many. Others get the label simply because they've discovered a novel solution to a novel problem, or because they possess certain skills not seen in the general population. I don't think there's a relationship between genius and autism; however, there's certainly a relationship between genius and the human brain and there's no denying that fact.

I guess what I'm saying is is that genius isn't exclusive to just autistics and that the definition can be applied to pretty much anyone at any given time. We may very well be more likely to show traits of genius, and even measure as such, but we're not the only ones here.

That's why I quoted John Lennon as an example of a presumably N.T, genius. I know Paul McCartney is also phenomenal but I figure John's genius extended beyond music somehow. I think geniuses share certain characteristics with aspies as well so it didn't surprise me Lennon struggled at school due to the environment he was in (kind of run down narrow minded in the late fifties).
I suppose I mean to say you can be aspie and genius, N.T. and genius but all seem to share social environmental relations issues. If that makes any sense?

 

[HelloDizzy]

Any peculiarities on the tests? As in, an unusual pattern of types of problems you excel at or do not?

I have discalculia, can barely handle numbers at all.
Everything else was excelled in, although I don't always have the best verbal recall. My reading recall is much better.

 

[total-recoil]

I have discalculia, can barely handle numbers at all.
Everything else was excelled in, although I don't always have the best verbal recall. My reading recall is much better.

As someone said earlier, it's important not to burden special interest aspies with standards they may not be able to live up to since the mixture of genius is highly complex and unpredictable.
I have concluded that actually talented aspies somehow tend to not show any real promise in normal academic circles which is why many drop out of universities. Let's take Gary Mckinnon the notorious Pentagon hacker. Not a genius, of course, but apparently was very efficient computer software developments programmer who couldn't seem to advance within normal classrooms (he apparently struggled with advanced maths). Like Bill Gates he dropped out and did his own thing and, by his own testimony, was hotter at systems development for companies than I.T. graduates who passed through the system.
I think for aspies it becomes important not to try and seek perfection the same way others go about it. In fact, as I think about it now I think for me university was a mistake as it led me towards trying to copy some sort of approved path to expertise, that is writing essays that teachers wanted to hear as opposed to expressing new and genuine ideas that were risky or unorthodox. Also, for me, uni was too wide and too much multi-tasking so my grades tended to only be high in the areas I was interested in (I flunked biology)
As an aspie I appear to be far slower picking up knowledge than a good scholar but tend to approach the subject from a more obscure angle and focus on some very fine point. Sometimes it seems as if it takes ages for something to sink in so I have to repeat over and over again.
I'll share something of interest: Recently I did an online company test on language and maths and came out average for language and numbers. One of the questions I got wrong went something like this:
Which one of the following two is a proper sentence:
(1) The lady, having entered the living room, switching on the light, greeted the dog.
(2) Drive slowly now!
Well, according to the computer my selection of number 2 was incorrect. However, I still disagree because I thought sentence number one was so poorly constructed that number 2 was closer. If a sentence must have a subject and a verb, or object, I would wager that number two is simply an imperative with a possible implied pronoun so very similar to "She drives (the car) slowly."
That is, if I had to choose between two evils I'd go with number two.
And I think whoever made this test just assumed the use of an imperative somehow negates any notion of sentence.

 

[HelloDizzy]

My university/college grades also reflected what I was interested in. A in English and Psychology, flunk math and avoid history altogether. I pick up on things very quickly; chances are if I don't get it the first or second time, I'll never get it. Some things just don't fit correctly into my brain-pegs.

Both of those sentences are correct. Number 2 has an "understood You" as a subject.
I would have serious issues answering that on a test because both are correct but both are "awkward sentences."

The neuropsychologist who diagnosed me with Aspergers said that I seem to think I'm "entitled" due to my inability to accept non-logic in the school system.