Autism and narcissistic traits, how do you tell them apart in yourself?

[Ayy]

I am new here, Hi

I was wondering if I could get some advice or even thoughts on how to tell the difference between acting selfishly and just being straight up on the spectrum. I have my own experience and thoughts about it but have been conditioned by self criticism to where I can't tell the difference emotionally.

Thanks

 

[Crossbreed]

Get with an autism-competent counselor.

If you are in the USA, see Autlanders, Thriving Outside of the Box: Finding Support Resources in the USA...

 

[Sarah S]

Narcissism
Reviewed by Psychology Today Staff

Narcissists have a prominent place in the popular imagination, and the label "narcissist" is widely deployed to refer to people who appear too full of themselves. There's also a growing sense that narcissism is on the rise around the world, especially among young people, although most psychological research does not support that notion.

Narcissism is properly viewed on a spectrum. The trait is normally distributed in the population, with most people scoring near the middle, and a few at either extreme. The Narcissistic Personality Inventory (NPI), developed by Robert Raskin and Calvin S. Hall in 1979, is the most commonly used measure of the trait. Scores range from 0 to 40, with the average tending to fall in the low to mid-teens. Healthy individuals who score somewhat higher may be perceived as exceedingly charming, especially on the first encounter, but eventually come across as vain. Such individuals may have awkward or stressful personal encounters but still have a fundamentally healthy personality.

NARCISSISM
Know the Signs of Narcissism, Including Narcissistic Anger
Recognizing the dynamics of narcissism can protect you from narcissistic anger.
Posted March 23, 2022 | Reviewed by Davia Sills

KEY POINTS
There are three types of narcissists, and while all may exhibit anger, those with vulnerable narcissism are most prone to rage.
Understanding the reasons why we may be attracted to narcissists, and the challenges of living with them, can help us protect ourselves.
Narcissism has garnered increased attention in recent years, whether with regard to personal relationships, the workplace, or politics. This is a good thing. Because the more quickly we recognize the dynamics of narcissism when we encounter it in our lives, the faster we can act to protect ourselves from the anger and manipulation associated with it.

The three types of narcissism and anger
In general, research suggests there are three types of narcissism: grandiose narcissism, vulnerable narcissism, and narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). Each form entails heightened self-absorption and contempt for others. Additionally, aspects of each form of narcissism might appear in individuals who are diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, the clinical type.

Grandiose narcissism includes an exaggerated sense of self-importance, an ongoing need for admiration, and ever-present fantasies of increased power, wealth, intelligence, and physical appearance. It is also marked by a belief that one deserves special treatment. Additionally, it entails a tendency to take advantage of others and a lack of care, empathy, or compassion for others.

By contrast, vulnerable narcissism–often called covert narcissism–may include anxiety, shame, depression, and introversion. It encompasses envy and resentment of others, hypersensitivity to even mild criticism, and a constant need for attention. Additionally, it is often associated with passivity that only fosters a sense of victimhood.

Narcissistic personality disorder is the clinical diagnosis of individuals exhibiting five or more of those qualities defining grandiose personality disorder.

Narcissism and anger
Research emphasizes that while both forms of narcissism can make one susceptible to anger arousal, “narcissistic rage” is most often associated with narcissistic vulnerability (Krizan and Johar, 2015). Suspicion, dejection, and angry rumination associated with narcissistic vulnerability fuels rage, hostility, and aggressive behavior. This same study showed that narcissistic vulnerability was strongly associated with anger internalization and externalization, a heightened degree of shame, as well as poorer anger control.

One study involved victims of narcissistic partners in the context of domestic violence (Green and Charles, 2019). It suggested that both grandiose and vulnerable narcissists’ injuries were covertly and overtly aggressive and violent. However, their motives were different—with violence being triggered by threats to self-esteem for those with grandiose narcissism and injury and fear of abandonment for those with vulnerable narcissism.

In one study, those participants who scored high on the NPI responded with greater changes in anxiety, anger, and self-esteem following a failure (Rhodewalt and Morf, 1998). Participants completed the Narcissistic Personality Inventory and were then asked to complete a series of tasks in which they succeeded and failed. Their differences were reflected in attributions regarding their as well as their moods.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...signs-narcissism-including-narcissistic-anger


This is what Narcissist is and has NOTHING in common of ASD dear

 

[Callistemon]

I think it's in whether a person genuinely cares for and respects another as a human being, or they are just feigning such things with words in order to get on your good side. Narcissists see people in terms of the benefit to themselves but don't truly care about you. Also they can't see you as a person, they see a mirror, or a projection.

That's not the same as having difficulty with interactions or with reading people, or as needing time alone or being preoccupied.

I think both NTs and NDs can be narcissistic and neither has the monopoly. Sometimes it's immaturity and sometimes it's an actual personality disorder. But I think probably most people are a mix of good and bad and can display narcissistic behaviours at times even if they are mostly considerate and respectful.

...and hello!

 

[Sarah S]

You nailed it right on the spot there Callistemon.

Backley IF you were indeed a Narcissist the last place you would be on is right in here asking and being concerned if you are one.

As YOU are always right, and all others just need to follow you're lead. YOU are GODS chosen one to lead the others beneath you to the right path. And you shore don't knead anyone else as you're always right in everything. All others are there to serve you nothing else.

Oh, and congratulations on your big day Callistemon

 

[Ayy]

Thanks all that helped a lot! I considered your replies and like Callistemon said, it's complicated. I had a talk and did some more balanced thinking and realised I was splitting pretty hard down the center in a moralistic rage at myself and believed I wasn't as I assessed each case individually but each case was split black and white, just more fine grain. I fool myself a lot by doing this as being unsure is unbearable when upset. Thanks all!

 

[Sarah S]

Thanks all that helped a lot! I considered your replies and like Callistemon said, it's complicated. I had a talk and did some more balanced thinking and realised I was splitting pretty hard down the center in a moralistic rage at myself and believed I wasn't as I assessed each case individually but each case was split black and white, just more fine grain. I fool myself a lot by doing this as being unsure is unbearable when upset. Thanks all!

Ayy may i humbly suggest you do as i do when i am in doubt about all my gazillion diagnosis. Research and there is also valid online tests on many of the different diagnosis or indeed mental illness you can also take to get a hint on whether you're in the risk or not.

And im glad that we could ease youre mind on this

 

[Ayy]

Thanks, I do, I've been in and out of mental health since young. Got diagnosed with Bi polar and possible autism. Medicated for Bi polar though never got tested for autism because I believed I wasn't though genetically my sister and father are plus 2 psychiatrists and 1 psychologist suggested it at different parts of my life. I am extremely high functioning if I am but all the signs are there and it's extremely exhausting and unhealthy to operate how I do to fit in. I have been referred back to the system at my request for a diagnosis and therapy for coping and healing but it works slow in NZ. I wanted to get more human answers as broad overviews are difficult for me as I learn how to do things by watching people reason and then reverse engineer from there and apply the scheme produced within myself to see what it produces. Thanks, I will surely look into more of this stuff like you say as it's my first day actually reaching out about it so I am naive to the literature but I've lived around it long enough to where I'm almost in denial which is confusing to say the least

Ayy may i humbly suggest you do as i do when i am in doubt about all my gazillion diagnosis. Research and there is also valid online tests on many of the different diagnosis or indeed mental illness you can also take to get a hint on whether you're in the risk or not.

And im glad that we could ease youre mind on this

 

[Sarah S]

Thanks, I do, I've been in and out of mental health since young. Got diagnosed with Bi polar and possible autism. Medicated for Bi polar though never got tested for autism because I believed I wasn't though genetically my sister and father are plus 2 psychiatrists and 1 psychologist suggested it at different parts of my life. I am extremely high functioning if I am but all the signs are there and it's extremely exhausting and unhealthy to operate how I do to fit in. I have been referred back to the system at my request for a diagnosis and therapy for coping and healing but it works slow in NZ. I wanted to get more human answers as broad overviews are difficult for me as I learn how to do things by watching people reason and then reverse engineer from there and apply the scheme produced within myself to see what it produces. Thanks, I will surely look into more of this stuff like you say as it's my first day actually reaching out about it so I am naive to the literature but I've lived around it long enough to where I'm almost in denial which is confusing to say the least

I have dealt with the so called " professionals (not locked and all open but yes medical health care and psychological as well) since 4 and up to when they final discovered my ASD (and at the same time tossed in the towel in trying to locate even more of my still documented multiple diagnosis yet to find. But as the odds of finding them all is less than good; They have stopped looking.

And the thing about feeling not fitting in. I have felt like an alien from i was 4 so believe me i understand. (im Mod bi polar as well or as it was called in my days Manic depression disorder, Just one of my MANY co morbids to my main diagnosis )

In many ways i personally believe you with less severe levels are having it way worse than us more severe as we already are judged so to say to not being able to function as normal by the society

 

[Ayy]

I'm sorry to hear you've had such a rough time. I can't relate about how severe your experience is ( although I feel it and am heartbroken watching family go through their stuff when I know they are the sweetest people). I too have had a lot of trouble with professionals though a lot of that in my case is due to the fact I see them between swings or in the middle of a high spike and for some reason I wanna keep it all to myself because being misunderstood again would just hurt too bad.

Oh you think? I can see how that works with the way people categorise these things. Though I think they are just different sets of factors but same root. I just came out of a year of rapid cycling and distorted thinking so my sense of self is gone now that I took a higher dose and returned to the old me and can see all the stuff I was thinking and doing for what it was though I thought I was. But the other stuff remains so I wanna get that checked now that I feel like I want to live again.

Thanks for talking and relating to me

 

[Sarah S]

I'm sorry to hear you've had such a rough time. I can't relate about how severe your experience is ( although I feel it and am heartbroken watching family go through their stuff when I know they are the sweetest people). I too have had a lot of trouble with professionals though a lot of that in my case is due to the fact I see them between swings or in the middle of a high spike and for some reason I wanna keep it all to myself because being misunderstood again would just hurt too bad.

Oh you think? I can see how that works with the way people categorise these things. Though I think they are just different sets of factors but same root. I just came out of a year of rapid cycling and distorted thinking so my sense of self is gone now that I took a higher dose and returned to the old me and can see all the stuff I was thinking and doing for what it was though I thought I was. But the other stuff remains so I wanna get that checked now that I feel like I want to live again.

Thanks for talking and relating to me

Thank you kindly

Well as im older then you i can say that back then they sadly didn't know diddly about any of this NP diagnosis and in my case all the so-called help i got from the shrinks wasn't worth ...... So sadly, they didn't help much back then. But yes, my life has been a living never ending roller coaster of never-ending problems all my life BUT im still here tho (wink) ´and i have been falling thru the chairs from i was four and up as well. But i have to say i have talked to many that makes my life story look like a Cinderella story compared to theirs so i can't say im the worst.

Any time and you know were i am if you ever need or want to talk my friend.

 

[Ayy]

Oh I see you, that must have been very frustrating. I understand what you are saying to me beyond the words too, thanks I do get tired of it all sometimes and want to give up and live in the bush. Most of the time I go straight to wanting to die but that's for other reasons mostly, I use what's going on to explain and justify why my emotional state is so unstable, so over the years I've grown to associate some issues with danger and avoid thinking about them but life has a way of reminding you that you haven't addressed something ahahhahahh. Thanks so much, you too

 

[Kalinychta]

By contrast, vulnerable narcissism–often called covert narcissism–may include anxiety, shame, depression, and introversion. It encompasses envy and resentment of others, hypersensitivity to even mild criticism, and a constant need for attention. Additionally, it is often associated with passivity that only fosters a sense of victimhood.

@Callistemon Wooo! Sounds exactly like that person we were talking about the other day.

 

[Callistemon]

Yes, @Kalinychta, and one does bump into people like this fairly regularly. I wonder do any of them grow out of it? I've just learnt it's best not to engage. It's like the advice: Don't feed the troll. And I wonder if trolls are also narcissists - they'd have to be; people who are regular trolls anyway...

 

[Suzette]

I think it's in whether a person genuinely cares for and respects another as a human being, or they are just feigning such things with words in order to get on your good side. Narcissists see people in terms of the benefit to themselves but don't truly care about you. Also they can't see you as a person, they see a mirror, or a projection.

That's not the same as having difficulty with interactions or with reading people, or as needing time alone or being preoccupied.

I think both NTs and NDs can be narcissistic and neither has the monopoly. Sometimes it's immaturity and sometimes it's an actual personality disorder. But I think probably most people are a mix of good and bad and can display narcissistic behaviours at times even if they are mostly considerate and respectful.

...and hello!

It should also be noted that some sufferers of PTSD and cPTSD may exhibit some symptoms that resemble narcississim.

That is probably a clinically inacurrate description though.

 

[Callistemon]

It should also be noted that some sufferers of PTSD and cPTSD may exhibit some symptoms that resemble narcississim.

I think that's a great point, @Suzette. It's true that in the early stages of recovering from PTSD/cPTSD (or not recovering from it), people can be so completely focused on the past issues that caused the PTSD, or on current issues that triggered their PTSD, that they can be really self-absorbed - actually, absorbed in their problem/s and going around in circles they have a hard time getting out of. It's like being at a microscope only being able to see a tiny part of the world, to the exclusion of almost everything else.

And this may cause them to wear down their friends with their obsessive/compulsive probing of their problem/past/situation, and lack of external focus.

However, usually even a person wearing out their friends with their PTSD will still recognise that their friends are human, and not commodities for their convenience, and they will tend, out of their own usually appalling self-esteem at the time, to feel dreadfully guilty and ashamed of wearing out their friends with their problems, and start to try not to call or see them unless they are either getting close to ambulance siren type feelings, or have a lull in which it is possible to not bring up the problems (and that can be quite rare in the thick of such a situation), and to try to find a way of being of benefit to them too, and engage in other ways.

And I don't think non-narcissistic people with PTSD turn on their friends when their friends say they have had enough, and start to pursue and slander them and continue to seek their attention. Although of course, narcissism can be a personality, or a phase, or a subset of someone's behaviour, from self-absorption, immaturity etc.

Also, non-narcissistic people I think are more likely to want to try out strategies to help them progress out of their problems, than they are to reject them. With PTSD, not seeing ways out is really paralysing; and to have some things to try is usually welcomed. Whereas narcissists are often not so interested in solving their problems, but in staying "stuck" so they can continue to be the centre of attention, and the object of sympathy.

 

[Aspychata]

I do suffer chronic PTSD and l occasionally trigger but l feel horrible dragging anybody into it. I finally confessed to someone about ptsd and depression. I can't always talk to them if triggered but l don't want to hurt their feelings. They expect me to pick up the phone pronto because l don't work. But telling them made me feel much better
Like l don't need to hide it anymore.

 

[Callistemon]

I do suffer chronic PTSD and l occasionally trigger but l feel horrible dragging anybody into it. I finally confessed to someone about ptsd and depression. I can't always talk to them if triggered but l don't want to hurt their feelings. They expect me to pick up the phone pronto because l don't work. But telling them made me feel much better
Like l don't need to hide it anymore.

Please talk to us about that anytime, @Aspychata. I lost a friend to suicide in the early 2000s - a lovely woman in her 30s who was our volunteer community music teacher here. Held wonderful evenings in her home introducing us to all sorts of musical instruments from the indigenous peoples of the Americas, where she was from originally. She was always friendly and kind and enthusiastic and well loved in the community. We had no idea she suffered from bipolar as she didn't talk about it and hid herself in her house when she got to the horror lows. And so many of us would have wanted to be there for her, in the bad parts of life as well as the good. But she didn't know this, and we didn't know.

Since that happened, I never think someone is necessarily happy because they look it when I see them. Big big lesson for me. And there's friends and friends, I think, too. Some have been there and it's safe to go to them with this stuff, but we all have to communicate that.

 

[Kalinychta]

I do suffer chronic PTSD and l occasionally trigger but l feel horrible dragging anybody into it. I finally confessed to someone about ptsd and depression. I can't always talk to them if triggered but l don't want to hurt their feelings. They expect me to pick up the phone pronto because l don't work. But telling them made me feel much better
Like l don't need to hide it anymore.

Do you think your autism exacerbates your PTSD in some ways? The way you react to being triggered sounds like overstimulation to me.

 

[Suzette]

However, usually even a person wearing out their friends with their PTSD will still recognise that their friends are human, and not commodities for their convenience, and they will tend, out of their own usually appalling self-esteem at the time, to feel dreadfully guilty and ashamed of wearing out their friends with their problems, and start to try not to call or see them unless they are either getting close to ambulance siren type feelings, or have a lull in which it is possible to not bring up the problems (and that can be quite rare in the thick of such a situation), and to try to find a way of being of benefit to them too, and engage in other ways.

This is very true. Or in my case I have simply chosen to not have friends. It's easier.
For me, even if I am not currently experiencing depression, I still feel like a fraud. It's like I start walking on egg shells around my own thoughts gauging what is "normal", "probably crazy" or simply being confused about how to behave at all.

Well, not as much as I used to. But before certainly.