Autism or?

[Suzette]

Another "Autism or...." question.

When I was growing up I would get quite upset if I couldn't do something I admired. It didn't occur to me I could make changes or practice to do something differently.

For example, paper folding, writing neatly, organizing my school supplies etc. Just simple things. A big one was keeping my locker clean. I felt like walking chaos. Everything I did was messy and disorganized. I envied the kids who were neat and tidy.

The question though is: Is not realizing I could learn to be tidy and organized part of autistic thinking? Or something else?

 

[Raggamuffin]

I'd say people can struggle with organisation and tidiness in general, but it can be particularly challenging for people with ASD, or with ADHD (the 2 have some overlap). Personally I find that I can sometimes focus on tidiness and organisation, but it's never a constant. It will be a primary concern, and then it'll slip back into something that I try and get done, but usually don't. Self care is a similar pitfall for me.

Ed

 

[Suzette]

Let me clarify: Is thinking that your habits are unchangeable an autistic trait?

If others had not made me feel bad about my slovenliness, would I even have noticed, or cared about the neatness of others?

Note to the "over thinking police", these are philiosophical questions, not matters of importance.

 

[SimonSays]

Is thinking that your habits are unchangeable an autistic trait?

I can't see how it would be. If you are aware that you have a habit, then you must be able to change it with intention and practice. If you continue doing something that you are now aware of, then it is no longer a habit but a choice.

 

[Yeshuasdaughter]

It's typical for autistic children to have messy handwriting, messy rooms, run clumsily, etc.

 

[Magna]

It's typical for autistic children to have messy handwriting, messy rooms, run clumsily, etc.

For me as a child it was yes, yes and...yes.

• I got F grades in penmanship and my handwriting to this day is barely readable.
• My room was so messy that at times there was literally clutter a foot deep across my entire bedroom floor. Walking in it was like walking on a springy bog (minus the moisture). Even so, I knew pretty much where everything was located; I just had to dig for it. I'm still messy, but not that messy.
• As clumsy and uncoordinated as can be.

 

[Yeshuasdaughter]

For me as a child it was yes, yes and...yes.

• I got F grades in penmanship and my handwriting to this day is barely readable.
• My room was so messy that at times there was literally clutter a foot deep across my entire bedroom floor. Walking in it was like walking on a springy bog (minus the moisture). Even so, I knew pretty much where everything was located; I just had to dig for it. I'm still messy, but not that messy.
• As clumsy and uncoordinated as can be.

Anyone else get report cards that said something like "Above grade level for math and English, but does not live up to potential."?

 

[Magna]

Anyone else get report cards that said something like "Above grade level for math and English, but does not live up to potential."?

Yes. I would have to locate one of my grade school report cards to see the exact wording, but a teacher wrote that I had so much potential but that I wasn't living up to it or applying myself.

I realize now that a big part of it was that school was sensory overload for me and I was in survival mode.

 

[Suzette]

Anyone else get report cards that said something like "Above grade level for math and English, but does not live up to potential."?

Yes.

 

[Suzette]

I can't see how it would be. If you are aware that you have a habit, then you must be able to change it with intention and practice. If you continue doing something that you are now aware of, then it is no longer a habit but a choice.

It is that disconnect that I am talking about. "If you are aware you have a habit"
I was not aware of "habit" and only understood myself from the point of inborn character. Do you see the difference?

 

[Suzette]

It's typical for autistic children to have messy handwriting, messy rooms, run clumsily, etc.

Speaking of running clumsily...
I did so poorly that I had my gym teacher convinced I had asthma and he gave me an exemption from p.e. class!

 

[SimonSays]

It is that disconnect that I am talking about. "If you are aware you have a habit"
I was not aware of "habit" and only understood myself from the point of inborn character. Do you see the difference?

Yes. When you put it like that. You're saying you weren't aware there was any other way of doing it.

I was responding to what you had said earlier, wondering if your habits were an unchangeable autistic trait. But if you are unaware that you can do anything other than what it is you do, that is not what I would describe as a habit, so I think I misunderstood what you meant.

For me, as a kid, my room had stuff all over the table, but I knew where everything was. All made perfect sense to me. To my mum she couldn't understand how I could live in such a mess. She would periodically tidy up, even though I would tell her I knew where everything was and to keep out of my room. It was how I wanted it so why was she bothered?

Yes I could have put things away I suppose, but for me out of sight is out of mind. I don't mind things behind a cupboard door, so when I opened the door everything I need is right there. I've lived in a small van, and now in a tiny box room, so being disciplined is essential. I only have out what I need and if I don't need it it goes away, so that I can have as much order as I can. As a child I didn't have a lot of places to put things and I found that things naturally found their own place. To someone else, it might have seemed chaotic. But not to me.

Could I have done it differently? I'm sure I could. But I had no reason to because my system worked for me.

Could someone have explained the idea of being tidy and shown you how to be?

 

[Crossbreed]

Autism includes "hyper-focus."
If that hyper-focus includes tidiness, we will be tidy.
If our focus is elsewhere, we will not be.
I think that we are probably a lot more organized [tidy?] with our collections than we are with some old, dumb locker...

 

[Suzette]

Autism includes "hyper-focus."
If that hyper-focus includes tidiness, we will be tidy.
If our focus is elsewhere, we will not be.
I think that we are probably a lot more organized [tidy?] with our collections than we are with some old, dumb locker...

True. Woe to anyone who touched my drawing supplies!

On the messiness topic, I knew where my stuff was too.
My mom never tidied my room. Mostly she would say things like "a messy room is evidence of an untidy mind". I never really understood that one but I sure knew that she did not approve!

 

[unperson]

Let me clarify: Is thinking that your habits are unchangeable an autistic trait?

If others had not made me feel bad about my slovenliness, would I even have noticed, or cared about the neatness of others?

Note to the "over thinking police", these are philiosophical questions, not matters of importance.

? Overthink as much as you want, it's a free world.

re the thread subject - I think it might be an aspect of rigid thinking.

 

[rse92]

As a child a teenager I spent every Sunday at mass in the Catholic Church. A certain amount of that time is spent with hands clasped in prayer or otherwise. One day in church it occurred to me that I always clasped my hands so that my right thumb crossed over my left thumb (as most right-handed people do). I tried clasping my hands the other way, so that my left thumb crossed over my right thumb. It felt odd, not uncomfortable but not really comfortable (try it). Then and there I determined that I would teach to clasp my hands left thumb over right thumb so that I would do it naturally. And I did, every Sunday, every time I was consciously aware of clasping my hands. It become natural, and 50 years later it still is.

Thinking my behavior was unchangeable wasn't autistic. Changing it definitely was.

 

[dragonfire42]

I know if I can’t do something the way I want to, I see the entire thing as a complete failure instead of looking for ways to improve. Even if I realize something is a skill that can be improved, I am easily frustrated by lack of progress if it’s something I really want to do right away. Whether I keep trying depends on how frustrated I am versus how intent I am on doing it. I think that sort of rigid thinking is more common with autism.

I do tend to see things that I think are traits rather than skill as unchangeable, and can certainly see viewing organization that way, though for myself, getting something tidy to start with makes me think it’s something I can do if I’d put more effort into it, I just keep focusing on other things until it gets to the point where I don’t even know where to begin. But, say, when I keep making the same social mistakes over and over, that seems unchangeable. I guess the difference might be how much effort I feel like I’m putting in when things go wrong.

As for the influence of others, I expect that if it didn’t cause any sort of problem, like not being able to find things, then it wouldn’t seem like a big deal if things didn’t look tidy when others’ did. That sort of comparison requires some sort of emotion or feeling of significance, or it’s just like “Oh, that person’s wearing a long-sleeved shirt and I’m wearing a short-sleeved shirt.” Because others told you that it was better to have things neat, having a clean locker became desirable even if it wasn’t directly causing a problem for you.

 

[rse92]

Let me clarify: Is thinking that your habits are unchangeable an autistic trait?

Autistic people are almost by definition creatures of habit. It is one of our most important defense mechanisms against anxiety. "Unchangeable" suggests we have no agency in determining our behaviors. If what you mean to ask is "is thinking that I can't change my habits an autistic trait," two further questions come to mind. One is "can I change my habits? Do I want to improve? Do I want to be better?" Neurotypical people and neurodiverse people both struggle with that. The second question is: do I want to? Answering that question "no" probably is an autistic trait.

 

[rse92]

Let me clarify: Is thinking that your habits are unchangeable an autistic trait?

If others had not made me feel bad about my slovenliness, would I even have noticed, or cared about the neatness of others?

Note to the "over thinking police", these are philiosophical questions, not matters of importance.

Put another way, of course you have the ability to change your habit of untidiness. It is not an unchangeable habit. Refusing or being unwilling to do so could be an autistic trait (as it could be a signifier of other mental health issues, not to send you off the deep end).

 

[jleeb05]

@Suzette, you had me thinking deeply about this one. That's an interesting question. Apologies in advance because these aren't fully formed thoughts but I think this could be related to autism. I'm reflecting on the fact that people on the spectrum, especially as children, can engage in black-and-white thinking. It's either this or that. You're organized or you're not. Additionally, given some of the issues with theory of mind, maybe you observed someone being neat/organized and saw that as a personality trait inherent to that person and not a choice.

I also think people on the spectrum can struggle with identity formation. One way we may understand ourselves is in relation to others. So when you saw someone being neat, it fed into your identity as someone who was the opposite without occurring to you that you might be able to adapt.

That said, this is still a difficult concept for me to grasp. I was just telling my Mom how I appreciated that on two separate occasions, when I've talked to an autism clinician about my ADHD/disorganization they've said, "You need to hire an assistant!" They also suggested some practical steps I could take but there didn't seem to be this pressure for me to be someone different. It was as if they started by accepting the fact that I was disorganized and then gave me suggestions on how to be successful as a disorganized person.

I look at "early birds"/morning people with envy. I wish I was someone who could hop up out of bed at 5 AM and get to work. I'm the complete opposite. On the weekends, I'm lucky if I'm rolling out of bed by noon. Like you, it never occurred to me until fairly recently that I could change my behavior and perhaps turn myself into a morning person. At some point, I decided I was going to force myself to become one. However, studies show that people naturally have different circadian rhythms and that those on the spectrum specifically, are more likely to have circadian dysregulation. I've read that attempting to sleep/get up earlier or later than is natural for you might actually be harmful to your health.

We're also more likely to have executive dysfunction which might impact things like neatness and organization. Those of us who struggle with this can certainly learn strategies and habits to help mitigate the chaos. However, I feel that I am not the most organized person and never will be. When I try to be super neat, I feel it can produce anxiety. Recently, I was trying to organize my room. It started off okay but at some point, I was literally pacing back and force, anxious and unsure of what to do next.

So while I don't want to say that some of us are just doomed to be disorganized and messy, I'm not fully convinced that your thought process as a child/young adult was that far off the mark. Maybe you're simply not a naturally tidy/organized person like some of the people you observed. You may have just lacked awareness of your ability to mitigate the chaos.