Automotive Stop/Start Technology

[Judge]

Technology that is designed to temporarily turn off your car's engine and then restart with little sensation or noise, in an effort to lower emissions and preserve gas mileage.

First, are you aware of this? Second, does your present vehicle have it? Have you ever driven a car with it? Seems it's been in the market for a few years elsewhere in the world, but is only now spreading to the US. Apparently owners ether love it or hate it. Seems most manufacturers won't allow an owner to disable it.

I suppose my greatest concern is the long term wear and tear involved.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/08/...gy-is-coming-to-cars-like-it-or-not.html?_r=0

 

[xudo]

I haven't driven a car with it, but I've been aware of it for quite a long time. Cars that do this have been sold here in the UK for years (I honestly couldn't tell you how long). Having said that, I'm still caught by surprise sometimes when a car stops at a pedestrian crossing and the engine just turns off

 

[Judge]

I'm just wondering that in most cases it's merely psychologically disconcerting to experience. And that much of it may be relative to how much sound and resonance is apparent, depending on the car.

But wondering about that wear and tear factor continues to nag at me.

 

[Mia]

The wear and tear on the engine or in this case the capacitor is a worry. Fact is, I have no use for it, if the engine goes off I usually think that its a problem, a stall, a battery. In the kind of climate I live it, it's too cold in the winter for the engine to stop for a little while as the heating in the car is turned off. If you're driving in a snowstorm or its windy the car becomes cold quite quickly. It only takes a few minutes for that to happen in cold weather.

 

[Judge]

The wear and tear on the engine or in this case the capacitor is a worry. Fact is, I have no use for it, if the engine goes off I usually think that its a problem, a stall, a battery. In the kind of climate I live it, it's too cold in the winter for the engine to stop for a little while as the heating in the car is turned off. If you're driving in a snowstorm or its windy the car becomes cold quite quickly. It only takes a few minutes for that to happen in cold weather.

Good points. I looked up more information about the technology to see how some vendors are negotiating a consistent interior climate inside the car in more inclement weather conditions. Also found some of the wear and tear concerns addressed as well in this article. It appears much of the equation is relative to the battery itself.

Engine Stop-Start Systems Save Fuel at Low Cost

 

[Nitro]

As an autie with a special interest in the internal combustion reciprocating engine,I am not in favor of it a all.

Motor vehicles are becoming way to complicated already,and as you add more monkey motion to an item,you are building in more chances of failures.

Upon restart,the compression rings that rely on combustion pressure to seal properly will allow for a startup with a brief instant of reduced compression,which directly translates to a loss of efficiency and a small amount of lubricating oil to be sent thru the positive crankcase ventilation system which ultimately gets burned with the combustion fuel/air mix.

The time spent during the shutdown allows lubricating oil to seep past the intake valve umbrella seals into the valve guides where there is intake vacuum present that adds further pollution to the exhaust gas mixture. That kind of defeats the whole purpose of the shutdown in my honest opinion.

The catalytic converter takes that hit the hardest,reducing the efficiency of the catalyst that will cause it's failure sooner than normal because it is processing lubricating oil along with the traces of unburned hydrocarbon fuels it was designed to clean up. They are by no means an inexpensive part either.

Next,you will have increased wear on the starting motor and a starting battery that is relied on every time the vehicle has to restart. Let me know how that works out for you when you have to replace the battery more often. Oh,and the starter motor won't be the $100 one either,because it will have to be made to hold up to very rigorous use.

If the vehicle isn't in perfect tune electrically,you will have misfires and possible failed restarts.Anyone who drives knows that at some point in time,the engine won't start on the first attempt.
In certain situations,I'm not in favor of waiting for the engine to restart to avoid an accident.I want my power to come on when I demand it,not when it gets around to it.


The whole detail sounds like a cherry pick to me,addressing one issue while adding others to the mix.
I know that doesn't cover everything,but it covers enough to show why I think it's destined to fail on a consumer standpoint.

 

[Southern Discomfort]

I'm learning to drive in a car with stop/start and I plan to get a car with it too. I'm no means an expert in this subject, hell, I'm not even a layman but I would think that because the engine is already warm it's not doing as much harm as you think it is. Plus engines are a lot better made now than they were in the previous decades.

Nope, I think it's a great thing and all petrol/diesel cars should have them; people don't always think or are scared to switch off their engines in a queue. So it helps everyone.

 

[Judge]

As an autie with a special interest in the internal combustion reciprocating engine,I am not in favor of it a all.

Not at all surprised.

I was quite dismayed at first over learning about this. I may be in the market for another car in the near future, but it seems there's not much getting around this issue. I just wish the operator had a choice of disengaging it, but I suspect environmentalists want to forcibly nix that option. So far I've only noticed that Cadillac allows an operator to disengage it, but it must be done each time the vehicle starts up. Also saw in another case where someone simply unplugged it beneath the dash, though I don't recall the manufacturer.

I'm slowly coming to terms with it. Interesting to see the YouTube reviews where some comment about it while and others don't. I'm thinking the degree of engine and road noise may have a lot to do with whether or not people find it annoying. Though it may take a few years to truly determine the real wear and tear factors.

Interesting though to have also read that if your battery charge/power is greatly diminished, the stop/start function may cease to function.

I suppose the deciding factor in my own case will be the inevitable test drive. Funny, I find myself attempting to debunk this technology for better or worse, much like anything paranormal.

 

[Nitro]

Not at all surprised.

I was quite dismayed at first over learning about this. I may be in the market for another car in the near future, but it seems there's not much getting around this issue. I just wish the operator had a choice of disengaging it, but I suspect environmentalists want to forcibly nix that option. So far I've only noticed that Cadillac allows an operator to disengage it, but it must be done each time the vehicle starts up. Also saw in another case where someone simply unplugged it beneath the dash, though I don't recall the manufacturer.

I'm slowly coming to terms with it. Interesting to see the YouTube reviews where some comment about it while and others don't. I'm thinking the degree of engine and road noise may have a lot to do with whether or not people find it annoying. Though it may take a few years to truly determine the real wear and tear factors.

Interesting though to have also read that if your battery charge/power is greatly diminished, the stop/start function may cease to function.

I suppose the deciding factor in my own case will be the inevitable test drive. Funny, I find myself attempting to debunk this technology for better or worse, much like anything paranormal.

The other part you have to take into consideration is the parasitic loss of electricity to run systems when the engine isn't running and how much draw there will be on the alternator to maintain them at full charge.
Alternators soak up horsepower which is a tradeoff in fuel efficiency

 

[Judge]

The other part you have to take into consideration is the parasitic loss of electricity to run systems when the engine isn't running and how much draw there will be on the alternator to maintain them at full charge.
Alternators soak up horsepower which is a tradeoff in fuel efficiency

Absolutely. Though I suspect they've already addressed that. Just a matter of finding the details.

I mean, the negative aspects of all this seem quite apparent in terms of the basics. But when you see "cutting-edge" major players like Mercedes Benz jump on this bandwagon, I suspect it's just a matter of understanding it all in as much is technically possible. If it was clearly flawed given such obvious concerns, I'd think such automotive experts would be among the first to patently reject it. But they didn't. Though somewhat like the DSM-V, I can't help but wonder how much influence the "green" lobby have exerted on major European car manufacturers (including Porsche/Audi) to make this happen. I can't help but ponder that possibility as well.

Though in my own case I'm hopelessly not knowledgeable to make a scientific or mechanical conclusion about it all. Right now I'll just settle for an ability to conclude or not if a specific vehicle accomplishes such a function seamlessly enough not to be noticed, or be annoyed with. I suppose the louder the engine and cabin noise, the more noticeable it may be.

If anything though, I just wish they made it optional to disengage. But then we've both been around that time when smog devices were mandatory...and how badly they impaired performance. This may ultimately prove to be just another nail in that particular coffin. Reminds me as well of 1974-75 with those obtrusive bumpers that became law that spoiled the looks of so many cars.

Yet I suspect street racers across the planet will figure out how to disengage this feature and in a hurry. You know that crowd doesn't care if they void their warranty...lol.

I initially gave some thought to what it would take to make my existing car new again, but even then much of it would still constitute what amounts to pouring lots of money into a 17 year old car. Looks like it would be best to just cash in my chips rather than face a future transmission rebuild having to replace a questionable input $haft bearing that Toyota never wanted to admit to.

 

[clg114]

Nope, I do not like it various reasons. One of them is that it reminds me of that awful two-stroke golf cart that I used to have. When you stopped, the engine died. When you pushed on the gas, it started. Or at least that was how it was supposed to work. Years ago I got rid of it and bought a electric golf cart. Now that is the kind of car I would like to have. Powered by a hydrogen fuel cell instead of a battery.

 

[Questella]

I never heard of it. I'd be afraid the car wouldn't start back up with my luck.

Computers malfunctioning in cars cause so many problems in my experiences. If you could always afford have a newer car but I've never had a car that was 16+ years old. Well I had one that was like 10 but it had more problems than the 19 year old Toyota

 

[Judge]

I'm beginning to wonder if car salesmen even mention it unless asked about by potential customers. After all, I can see how such a discussion could easily send many customers out the showroom door. Though apparently this technology has been around for many years. Only now selectively hitting the mainstream car market of the US.

It all makes me cringe...going back to those days in the 70s when government forced all those smog requirements, and the "Rube Goldberg" mechanisms some used to meet such requirements. Though admittedly this is something considerably more sophisticated. But I don't see myself ever liking it. Reminds me of something a much older coworker once lamented. He was taking about the days long before smog controls when you could let a well-tuned engine idle and you wouldn't even notice it. Little noise and even less vibration.

 

[Nitro]

I had a Chevrolet 327 cubic inch V-8 that was in one of my performance cars with a mild build and camshaft.
It was required to be emission tested to suit the 1967 body it was installed in. The specs were fairly loose for that year vehicle.
The tests were performed at curb idle speeds.
Being that it was in perfect tune,it passed the tailpipe test specs for a 1994 motor vehicle with a full array of pollution controls in place including a catalytic converter.
That type of test was done while OBD1 testing was in effect for the pre 1995 vehicles before the on board diagnostics 2 came into effect in 1995.OBD2 self reports thru the diagnostic connector under the dash,so the "sniff" test was not used as freely afterwards.

Proper tuning will eliminate most of the pollution emitted by an internal combustion engine.With fuel injection,CNC camshaft designs,better swirl combustion chamber designs, modern engine fuel and ignition timing management,the new low speed engines combined with flat torque curves turning transmissions that have flatter gear selections over a higher amount of gearing range selections,I see this deal fizzling out fairly quick.

I think this is just another greenie's event in place on the idle off engine.Europe is known for pushing the green theme,so it wouldn't surprise me if it was forced onto their auto makers.

 

[Judge]

I guess what bites the most is that once these sort of technological revisions are put into place, they're more or less permanent if government gets involved.

It just has me seriously bummed, hoping that when I take a test drive of such vehicles that I may not notice it much. But then this is me. I notice everything.

Added: At least here's one manufacturer that clearly allows you to turn off this feature: Mazda.

"Turn off: For whatever reason, if you do not want i-stop turned on, you can simply press the “i-stop off” button on the right side of your dash, and it will switch off."

How Does i-stop Works in the Mazda CX-5 and Mazda3?

 

[Full Steam]

I agree they are probably not as great as they claim to be, but...

I would imagine that in very congested cities the would reduce overall polution, since a huge amount of time is spent stopped waiting for lights, and traffic.

I've had a hire Volvo with it about 6 years ago. Picked it up from Victoria station after flying in from Australia, and hire people didn't warn us. I'd never even heard of it before, and got to sample it through London traffic which was not a great experience.

It's hard to know if it's good or bad since you can't trust the automobile industry to accurately report on anything.

Im basically in favour of polution control, but somewhat hypocritically own a v8 landcruiser.

 

[Keigan]

I watched a video showing a guy who replaced his car battery with a bank of ultra-capacitors, and I thought to myself I wonder if I could do that with my 6.4L diesel. An ultra-capacitor is one of the components in stop-start approach, and the ultra-capacitors do not wear or corrode.

My 6.4L diesel chews up two large batteries every two years as the starter draws significant amperage to turn over the high compression motor. Even worst on a 6.0L diesel. I've now replaced one of the two batteries with a bank of ultra-capacitors and things work fantastic, so well that I'm thinking my remaining battery will actually last a long time as the ultra-capacitor bank provides all the amperage for the starting event without drawing amperage from the second battery. The only reason that I have one battery remaining is so that the charging system can detect resistance and actually provide charge.

 

[Judge]

Found a basic explanation and display of this technology on YouTube. At least it seems to answer some of the more pressing concerns. Though still I wish it could simply be turned off as a choice of the operator rather than manufacturers who are so aggressively competing for emissions and MPG stats.

Oddly enough apparently Cadillac does allow an operator to temporarily turn off this function according to this video: