Big picture ASD vs. Detail Oriented ASD

[Ragnahawk]

Something that stumps me and throws me way off is how great the differences are between individuals under the ASD umbrella. I am reading a book titled "Our Socially Awkward Marriage: Stories from an Asperger's Relationship" to make my certain my thoughts. I have to collect information to be able to support an idea. That's how an INTP functions. Logically speaking combining MTBI and ASD is a enriching and certain answer. Yet it isn't in the books. How could people overlook this? It makes me doubt what path I should take.

I can't really write papers well as all of the information comes out as is, and I can't wrap my head around forming a professional opinion. Everytime I try to convey my ideas to other people my words fall on deaf ears. I don't speak intelligently.

On the opposite side of the spectrum the detail oriented ASD individual.... Drawing a mental blank slate. Detail oriented people or sensing personality types are more in the now and have better senses.

I don't know what I am getting at. Maybe subconsciously my brain is seeking help for accomplishing the task of bringing these qualities to light. I don't think help will come as most of the people here are seeking help in self validation instead of help in finding a purpose. This might be somewhat cruel to say and also optimistic. I think there are a lot of useful tools laying around without anyone to use them. Destiny or very small chance brought me here with some very outlandish ideas and wisdom. Why aren't we working together on improving each other instead of this sitting around looking for solutions on idle problems. If your blind as an artist, do you stop drawing? If you are a runner but you can no longer run do you quit existing or do you tackle life anyways? Here I don't see that drive, I see a bunch of people standing in corners expecting someone else to save them. It starts with you.

This is how I end up writing. Unfiltered, unsure and too honest.

 

[LucyPurrs]

I don't see that drive, I see a bunch of people standing in corners expecting someone else to save them.

Disagree. Just look at any of the posts by Chance- he is striving constantly to improve himself and his functioning. So are others here. But if I misunderstood you, please forgive me.

 

[the_tortoise]

I see people here supporting one another with all kinds of problems by listening and offering support, sharing experiences, suggesting practical solutions and strategies to make things better.

I see people sharing hopes and dreams and ideas and accomplishments and goals, discussing things that are important/significant to them (doesn't matter if they aren't important/significant to me, doesn't diminish their important/significance to the other person), offering encouragement and alternative points of view.

If someone needs help, or feels helpless to change things in their life, that's not a failing in that person, in my opinion. Sometimes life beats the crap out of people, and sometimes people really are very limited in their ability to change things and that's just the way it is -- it doesn't mean they haven't tried or aren't still trying, that they aren't doing the best they can with what they have in life and facing whatever difficulties they face, that they aren't strong/capable/determined people..... it also doesn't mean they aren't actually successful and accomplishing a lot in their particular circumstances.

I also see people discuss what they or others might consider small things, but life is full of small things.....you don't get the forest without each individual tree -- just because the forest as a whole is important doesn't mean that each tree is not also important.

Basically, if I look around here I do see people working to live good/meaningful/happy lives and be the best versions of themselves they can, and trying to help others to do the same.

When people seek validation of themselves or their experiences or their feelings (or offer that validation to others), I don't see that as a bad or useless thing -- not at all. It's meeting an emotional need that may be at least as important as finding a purpose in life (not everyone even has a purpose in life -- that doesn't mean they don't find meaning in life or don't contribute anything to the world or that they have no motivation or passion to do anything, it just means they don't think about their life as having some specific purpose other than to be lived). Sometimes people need that validation in order to move forward to wherever they want to move forward to -- sometimes people need that validation just to keep from sliding backwards/downwards. Sometimes people just need that validation to be okay, in whatever other way matters. It's not a shameful thing to need or want validation and seeking validation of self is not the opposite of finding purpose or being productive or solving problems or taking responsibility for your own life -- it doesn't automatically preclude any of those things, and may in fact be a part of doing them.

 

[Ragnahawk]

Disagree. Just look at any of the posts by Chance- he is striving constantly to improve himself and his functioning. So are others here. But if I misunderstood you, please forgive me.

Chance is a great guy I don't disagree on that. When I am looking from my perspective I am looking at progress on how we have developed as a whole. There are no groups, there's no projects, nothing that can use the potential that's here. I don't know maybe it is too mainstream? Odd saying that here. The unspoken policy people follow is don't take too many chances. Just get what I need and get out. If I were you I wouldn't disagree outright. Both sides are true to meet the truth.

 

[LucyPurrs]

Chance is a great guy I don't disagree on that. When I am looking from my perspective I am looking at progress on how we have developed as a whole. There are no groups, there's no projects, nothing that can use the potential that's here. I don't know maybe it is too mainstream? Odd saying that here. The unspoken policy people follow is don't take too many chances. Just get what I need and get out. If I were you I wouldn't disagree outright. Both sides are true to meet the truth.

OK then I guess I misunderstood you and can now understand your point. I was thinking you were talking about individuals on here not as a whole.

 

[Ragnahawk]

I see people here supporting one another with all kinds of problems by listening and offering support, sharing experiences, suggesting practical solutions and strategies to make things better.

I see people sharing hopes and dreams and ideas and accomplishments and goals, discussing things that are important/significant to them (doesn't matter if they aren't important/significant to me, doesn't diminish their important/significance to the other person), offering encouragement and alternative points of view.

If someone needs help, or feels helpless to change things in their life, that's not a failing in that person, in my opinion. Sometimes life beats the crap out of people, and sometimes people really are very limited in their ability to change things and that's just the way it is -- it doesn't mean they haven't tried or aren't still trying, that they aren't doing the best they can with what they have in life and facing whatever difficulties they face, that they aren't strong/capable/determined people..... it also doesn't mean they aren't actually successful and accomplishing a lot in their particular circumstances.

I also see people discuss what they or others might consider small things, but life is full of small things.....you don't get the forest without each individual tree -- just because the forest as a whole is important doesn't mean that each tree is not also important.

Basically, if I look around here I do see people working to live good/meaningful/happy lives and be the best versions of themselves they can, and trying to help others to do the same.

When people seek validation of themselves or their experiences or their feelings (or offer that validation to others), I don't see that as a bad or useless thing -- not at all. It's meeting an emotional need that may be at least as important as finding a purpose in life (not everyone even has a purpose in life -- that doesn't mean they don't find meaning in life or don't contribute anything to the world or that they have no motivation or passion to do anything, it just means they don't think about their life as having some specific purpose other than to be lived). Sometimes people need that validation in order to move forward to wherever they want to move forward to -- sometimes people need that validation just to keep from sliding backwards/downwards. Sometimes people just need that validation to be okay, in whatever other way matters. It's not a shameful thing to need or want validation and seeking validation of self is not the opposite of finding purpose or being productive or solving problems or taking responsibility for your own life -- it doesn't automatically preclude any of those things, and may in fact be a part of doing them.

Self esteem sounds nice but it is inheritly feeble. It's better to accept your losses as a stepping stone than to have someone tell you, you are a good person. Someone who is afraid but willing to take on challenges if not desires them for fun.

 

[the_tortoise]

Self esteem sounds nice but it is inheritly feeble. It's better to accept your losses as a stepping stone than to have someone tell you, you are a good person. Someone who is afraid but willing to take on challenges if not desires them for fun.

I am very confused by this....

I don't understand what you're saying, or what you think I was saying, and I'm now pretty sure I didn't understand your OP, and that we are now having 2 different conversations as a result of a lot of misunderstanding (it seems we are "not on the same page".....to extend the metaphor: we might be in entirely different sections of the same book, or maybe even reading entirely different books....and possibly those books are written in different languages)

I am at a loss as to how to respond to the bit about self-esteem being feeble....

I don't understand why you think it's feeble and I don't understand why or how accepting losses is somehow different to / separate from self-esteem .....I don't even understand how they are comparable things and now need to ask: A stepping stone to what?

I didn't even mean to say anything specifically about self-esteem -- what I wrote was not about self-esteem.....was your original OP supposed to be about self-esteem compared to something else?

I think you and I have different definitions of "validation" ....or if we have the same definition, I think I imagined something very different from what you actually meant when you used the word "validation" in your OP (did you mean telling someone they are a good person?)....

The way I see validation, you can validate anything -- good things, neutral things, and bad things; You can validate someone's losses and flaws and weaknesses/limitations; You can validate someone's perspective that they screwed up, made huge mistakes, acted like a jerk and hurt someone; You can validate that someone's life situation sucks. Validation, to me, means affirming something as real or affirming the nature of it -- fundamentally communicating something along the lines of, "yes I see it, too, you are not just crazy or making up nonsense"....it is part of showing people understanding, which is something that people (maybe not everyone) can need and benefit from whether they have any self-esteem or not. Putting a positive spin on things or showing someone a positive reflective of themselves can be part of offering someone validation (and I think it can be a very helpful thing to do), but it doesn't have to be.

 

[Ragnahawk]

I am very confused by this....

I don't understand what you're saying, or what you think I was saying, and I'm now pretty sure I didn't understand your OP, and that we are now having 2 different conversations as a result of a lot of misunderstanding (it seems we are "not on the same page".....to extend the metaphor: we might be in entirely different sections of the same book, or maybe even reading entirely different books....and possibly those books are written in different languages)

I am at a loss as to how to respond to the bit about self-esteem being feeble....

I don't understand why you think it's feeble and I don't understand why or how accepting losses is somehow different to / separate from self-esteem .....I don't even understand how they are comparable things and now need to ask: A stepping stone to what?

I didn't even mean to say anything specifically about self-esteem -- what I wrote was not about self-esteem.....was your original OP supposed to be about self-esteem compared to something else?

I think you and I have different definitions of "validation" ....or if we have the same definition, I think I imagined something very different from what you actually meant when you used the word "validation" in your OP (did you mean telling someone they are a good person?)....

The way I see validation, you can validate anything -- good things, neutral things, and bad things; You can validate someone's losses and flaws and weaknesses/limitations; You can validate someone's perspective that they screwed up, made huge mistakes, acted like a jerk and hurt someone; You can validate that someone's life situation sucks. Validation, to me, means affirming something as real or affirming the nature of it -- fundamentally communicating something along the lines of, "yes I see it, too, you are not just crazy or making up nonsense"....it is part of showing people understanding, which is something that people (maybe not everyone) can need and benefit from whether they have any self-esteem or not. Putting a positive spin on things or showing someone a positive reflective of themselves can be part of offering someone validation (and I think it can be a very helpful thing to do), but it doesn't have to be.

I tend to understand the meaning of words wrong. So in a literal sense yes you are correct. My interpretation of the word is based on what I used to do which was to get people to tell me I am worth something or that my existence has value. I didn't like to stumble and look like a fool so I tended to see people as a burden. I've since seen past my old failures looking at it as a increase in my wisdom and a necessary step.

 

[the_tortoise]

I tend to understand the meaning of words wrong. So in a literal sense yes you are correct. My interpretation of the word is based on what I used to do which was to get people to tell me I am worth something or that my existence has value. I didn't like to stumble and look like a fool so I tended to see people as a burden. I've since seen past my old failures looking at it as a increase in my wisdom and a necessary step.

Thank you for clarifying to help me understand what you meant! (I can be extremely literal, and get easily confused about what people are saying when the conversation is about big/complex concepts with lots of social connotations that are being discussed without specific examples.)

So when you spoke of validation, you specifically meant validation of a persons worth/value, or the value of a person's life?

I still don't understand the bigger message you are trying to communicate, though....

Are you saying that validation of a person's worth or the worth of their life somehow prevents them learning from mistakes? (Or prevents them from trying things? Or prevents them from being/connecting/working with others? Or that it prevents them from doing something else?) If "yes" to any of these questions, how does it get in the way?

Or are you saying that seeking validation of self worth gets in the way/prevents a person from learning from mistakes? (Or gets in the way of something else?) If yes, how does that work?

Or are you saying that people ultimately need to find self worth from within -- that hearing people tell you how you are valuable or that you are a good person does not magically give a person self-worth, that you need your own reasons to value yourself and to value your life? (I agree, but I don't think it usually hurts anybody to tell them that they have value and/or that their life has value -- and I think that sometimes it can support a person in finding their own reasons to value themselves or in finding meaning in their life.....it did for me, in my own life....it's just like views on anything else, for me; I will listen to what other people say, adopt ideas that make sense to me and reserve judgement or just leave/disagree with ideas that doesn't make sense to me.)

If I'm way off here and seem hopeless, all I can say is I'm sorry and I understand if you don't want to spend a lot more time and effort trying to help me to get it. (I will keep thinking on it, in any case )

 

[Ragnahawk]

Thank you for clarifying to help me understand what you meant! (I can be extremely literal, and get easily confused about what people are saying when the conversation is about big/complex concepts with lots of social connotations that are being discussed without specific examples.)

So when you spoke of validation, you specifically meant validation of a persons worth/value, or the value of a person's life?

I still don't understand the bigger message you are trying to communicate, though....

Are you saying that validation of a person's worth or the worth of their life somehow prevents them learning from mistakes? (Or prevents them from trying things? Or prevents them from being/connecting/working with others? Or that it prevents them from doing something else?) If "yes" to any of these questions, how does it get in the way?

Or are you saying that seeking validation of self worth gets in the way/prevents a person from learning from mistakes? (Or gets in the way of something else?) If yes, how does that work?

Or are you saying that people ultimately need to find self worth from within -- that hearing people tell you how you are valuable or that you are a good person does not magically give a person self-worth, that you need your own reasons to value yourself and to value your life? (I agree, but I don't think it usually hurts anybody to tell them that they have value and/or that their life has value -- and I think that sometimes it can support a person in finding their own reasons to value themselves or in finding meaning in their life.....it did for me, in my own life....it's just like views on anything else, for me; I will listen to what other people say, adopt ideas that make sense to me and reserve judgement or just leave/disagree with ideas that doesn't make sense to me.)

If I'm way off here and seem hopeless, all I can say is I'm sorry and I understand if you don't want to spend a lot more time and effort trying to help me to get it. (I will keep thinking on it, in any case )

It is okay. I understand through concepts which can confuse people even more.

People need to find self worth in themselves and know that they have the potential to do so. See there is a trap in telling someone they are a smart person or other compliment versus telling them that if they apply themselves with hard work they will be much smarter.

The reason for this being that this person develops a mental bar, that this is the limit. If I am told I am a genius then I fail the entry exam into a college - I would think that I could not be any smarter (assuming I was a different person). The same falls under negative labels. I am a piece of trash. I will never amount to anything in life.

Then there is flattery. "Hey tim you are a really good basketball player" versus "If you keep working at it Tim you are going to get a lot better." Seeing Potential > Self Esteem

I am using examples to convey the concepts in my head. They don't always come out coherent. I hope some of it makes sense.

 

[the_tortoise]

See there is a trap in telling someone they are a smart person or other compliment versus telling them that if they apply themselves with hard work they will be much smarter.

The reason for this being that this person develops a mental bar, that this is the limit. If I am told I am a genius then I fail the entry exam into a college - I would think that I could not be any smarter (assuming I was a different person).

Interesting, and thank you very much for the explanation, as this would never have occured to me.

I do not think this way at all, have never experienced such a thought process... I wonder how many people do?

I am also curious about how it works -- why would you think that if others say you are smart, you cannot be any smarter?

For me, I was told I was smart a lot growing up and I still am occasionally. It never meant very much to me, though, (literal meaning, not emotional/social meaning -- in emotional/social terms it meant quite a bit; It was a nice thing to say, and I did appreciate that others regarded my ideas/cognitive abilities positively) and it still doesn't because "smart" is very abstract, very complex, and also a very relative thing.

]The same falls under negative labels. I am a piece of trash. I will never amount to anything in life.

I have definitely seen the mental bar happen with negative labels, but in the case of negative labels or comments that put people down I understand how it works (or, at least, I understand some of the ways it works -- probably not all of the ways).

Then there is flattery. "Hey tim you are a really good basketball player" versus "If you keep working at it Tim you are going to get a lot better." Seeing Potential > Self Esteem

This is a very helpful example, but flattery is more than just giving compliments. Flattery involves using compliments (usually fake/insincere and/or excessive) as selfish/under-handed social manipulation -- basically you compliment someone to make them like and trust you in order to take advantage of them and make them do things that they wouldn't do otherwise.

There is also a trap in always telling someone they can do better while never telling them that they are doing a good job now, or acknowledging the things they have achieved or the level of skill they demonstrate already; Many people would start to think that their best has never been good enough, is currently not good enough, and that maybe their best never will be good enough because no matter how hard they try, all they ever hear is "you can do better".

Part of why this happens is that usually when people say "you can do better" they are implying that you didn't do a good or satisfactory job. At least in the culture I'm from, most people would not say, "That was bad, but I know you are going to get a lot better" -- they would just say, "I know you're going to get a lot better".

But even if it "you didn't do a good job" was never implied, "I know you're going to get a lot better" is not actually feedback about past or current performance/ability. A person may want and/or need to know how they are doing right now, benefit in some way from getting feedback on what's happening now or has already happened, rather than only getting feedback about what someone thinks is possible in the future.

Why not say, "You're a really great basketball player, Tim. I know that with hard work you'll be even better" ? That way I think you would avoid both potential traps.

I am using examples to convey the concepts in my head. They don't always come out coherent. I hope some of it makes sense.

I really appreciate the examples, I found them coherent and very helpful!

 

[Progster]

Part of why this happens is that usually when people say "you can do better" they are implying that you didn't do a good or satisfactory job. At least in the culture I'm from, most people would not say, "That was bad, but I know you are going to get a lot better" -- they would just say, "I know you're going to get a lot better".

I teach children and I am very honest about their performance and potential. Normally I would say something like "that was a good job, but you can improve. If you keep working at it, you will improve further" or "Not so good this time. Do some more revision, spend a bit more time studying and practising, and you will do better next time."