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Character Inheritance

Dani Evar

Well-Known Member
Just a fun investigation of some sort.

How far do you guys think this statement is generally or personally correct? (Surely, it's not always multi-dimensionally correct, but that's not what I'm interested in here :rolleyes2: .)

"One inherits CHARACTER from the father, and INTELLIGENCE from the mother."

If I remember correctly, it was Marylin vos Savant (yes, an Aspie, with a fierce IQ) who said this, along with the probabilistic reasoning that naturally (that is, genetically) a male child (XY) is at least 50% and at most 99.9% (a genetic 'copy' of) his father (XY); while a female child (XX) is at least 66.6% and at most 99.9% her mother (XX).

So, in the social context, Marylin believes after all that a daughter should go with her mom's surname---not so for a son. (There are exceptions of course, involving free-will.)

It all goes down to saying: "If you (males) want intelligent kids, find smart females."

No, I don't think it's a sentimental feminist issue against patriarchy, just not yet :lol: .

(Oh, the title should read 'Character Inheritance', not 'Characeter Inheritance'---just can't edit it.)
 
Marylin vos Savant may have been an Aspie with a fierce IQ, but her logic was very flawed.

A male may have XY chromosones, but these do not represent the totality of our genetic inheritance. Far from it. In fact we have 23 pairs of chromosones, only 2 of which (the XY on which Ms Savant based her calculations) are sex chromosones.

// Why do I have the urge to use big words when I reply to one of Evar's posts? Is it because I have this fear that my posts will appear drab in comparison? I also have the urge to use colourful, artistic prose, but I lack a gift for that.
 
Hehe, this is very good for an initial response. Thanks for a quick critical eye-opener! :showoff:

I wish vos Savant was here. High IQ is not everything for sure. It's not necessarily the same as fluid intelligence and circumstantial correctness.

But still, what is your opinion on the Character and Intelligence issue? Even if only personal? :)

Or I guess the answer is there already. Good. :P


Marylin vos Savant may have been an Aspie with a fierce IQ, but her logic was very flawed.

A male may have XY chromosones, but these do not represent the totality of our genetic inheritance. Far from it. In fact we have 23 pairs of chromosones, only 2 of which (the XY on which Ms Savant based her calculations) are sex chromosones.

// Why do I have the urge to use big words when I reply to one of Evar's posts? Is it because I have this fear that my posts will appear drab in comparison? I also have the urge to use colourful, artistic prose, but I lack a gift for that.
 
Fixed the title for you. :)

Obviously there are genetic physical and mental (though technically that is down to physical development - the brain...) inheritances going on, but I think a lot of the persons character is derived from earlier learning experiences...?
 
I think that the research on identical twins is most telling. There are often incredible similarities between identical twins separated at birth in terms of character and life choices. Far more than would be expected if more conventional theories of character development are considered.

I don't think that one factor, genetic or environmental, can be said to be the dominant influence. Scientists who spend their lives studying this stuff are still arguing about it. I've read a few articles and watched some TV documentaries about it, so I won't be too offended if anyone tells me that I am talking a load of bollocks. A good friend of mine a few years ago had a father who was the 4th most evil man of the 20th century (by some measures). A rather infamous Central African dictator who used to keep the frozen heads of his enemies in his freezer. The son, my friend, was far from evil - he definitely seemed to have his heart in the right place, although his life was pretty directionless. He did suffer from serious depression and made one very gruesome suicide attempt in the time that I knew him.

One child growing up in an abusive environment might overcome this and say how strong it made him. Another child may grow up withdrawn, depressed and dysfunctional. Yet another may grow up and become a serial killer. Genetics and environment obviously both play a role, and I suspect that it varies a lot from person to person as to which is the most significant. Adolf Hitler was regularly beaten as a child by a father who believed in strong discipline, so much so that on one occasion his parents thought that he had died as a result of a beating. But when you live in a society that places few restrictions on how a child is disciplined, you run the risk of turning out a few monsters.
 
Thanks a great bunch of beans. :D


Fixed the title for you. :)

Obviously there are genetic physical and mental (though technically that is down to physical development - the brain...) inheritances going on, but I think a lot of the persons character is derived from earlier learning experiences...?
 
Wow.

And yes... Nature is capable of such variations. Strange but familiar. That's pretty much the case with giftedness too. Mozart's Genius (or Einstein's) was descended from (a distant, past-parental ancestor)? Or... simply a bursting brightness of natural variation. Genius, for sure, is a philosophical category in itself, occupying pretty much its own Platonic space in metaphysics.

But that's interesting especially in the case of mental illness (abnormal psychology). The capacity for natural inheritance seems to be highly discrete here.

I guess the central issue here, besides potential (consequential) risk, is sublimation (not necessarily the sublimation of sexual energy/drives ala Freud). The hypothesis is that many abnormalities can be transformed into other forms of creativity and eccentricity. But when it can't (as there are exceptions), it takes a one-way manifestation only, such as an 'entirely evil' sedimentation of psychosis. Helpless saturation.

Of course, generally humans are more complex in countless ways, but it's still interesting to note that some wild primates definitely bear human-like psychotic traits but aren't 'necessarily psychopaths'; I remember this one case of a silver-back gorilla. There's also some logic that seems to be accepted by the entire animal kingdom when it comes to the killing of a 'male heir' (done by a lion to its own male cubs (sparing only the female), for example).

Whether relevant or not, I remember someone saying, "The insanities of Hitler are still wisdom compared to the 'Old Man of the Bible'."

Now that the topic has been stripped naked with our logical knives, with pending conclusions... what remains is whether or not this (vos Savant's stuff) is pretty much just another feminist issue. :D




I think that the research on identical twins is most telling. There are often incredible similarities between identical twins separated at birth in terms of character and life choices. Far more than would be expected if more conventional theories of character development are considered.

I don't think that one factor, genetic or environmental, can be said to be the dominant influence. Scientists who spend their lives studying this stuff are still arguing about it. I've read a few articles and watched some TV documentaries about it, so I won't be too offended if anyone tells me that I am talking a load of bollocks. A good friend of mine a few years ago had a father who was the 4th most evil man of the 20th century (by some measures). A rather infamous Central African dictator who used to keep the frozen heads of his enemies in his freezer. The son, my friend, was far from evil - he definitely seemed to have his heart in the right place, although his life was pretty directionless. He did suffer from serious depression and made one very gruesome suicide attempt in the time that I knew him.

One child growing up in an abusive environment might overcome this and say how strong it made him. Another child may grow up withdrawn, depressed and dysfunctional. Yet another may grow up and become a serial killer. Genetics and environment obviously both play a role, and I suspect that it varies a lot from person to person as to which is the most significant. Adolf Hitler was regularly beaten as a child by a father who believed in strong discipline, so much so that on one occasion his parents thought that he had died as a result of a beating. But when you live in a society that places few restrictions on how a child is disciplined, you run the risk of turning out a few monsters.
 
(1) And yes... Nature is capable of such variations. Strange but familiar. That's pretty much the case with giftedness too. Mozart's Genius (or Einstein's) was descended from (a distant, past-parental ancestor)? Or... simply a bursting brightness of natural variation. Genius, for sure, is a philosophical category in itself, occupying pretty much its own Platonic space in metaphysics.

(2) Now that the topic has been stripped naked with our logical knives, with pending conclusions... what remains is whether or not this (vos Savant's stuff) is pretty much just another feminist issue. :D

(1) In the case of someone like Mozart, perhaps you have a combination of an inherited genius for music and a "variation" like Aspergers or HFA to intensify it, to a point where you have a level of genius that is almost incomprehensible even to your average genius. Personally I rate Beethoven slightly ahead of Mozart, at least in terms of his legacy and in terms of the depth of some of his compositions. But Mozart would rate more highly purely in terms of "genius" and who knows what he may have achieved if he had lived at least another decade or 2?

(2) Vos Savant's stuff is bollocks.
 
Yes, I too rate Beethoven ahead of Mozart in that sense. Yes, in terms of depth and unique, unpredictable, pronounced presence. He was contrapuntal too :). Mozart was more glacial, elegant, and traditional. He was a lot of genius, untimely brilliance, and suffering, but not as eccentric and severely isolated as Beethoven's. Comparing them isn't exactly like comparing Caravaggio and Pinturicchio (who were teacher and student).





(1) In the case of someone like Mozart, perhaps you have a combination of an inherited genius for music and a "variation" like Aspergers or HFA to intensify it, to a point where you have a level of genius that is almost incomprehensible even to your average genius. Personally I rate Beethoven slightly ahead of Mozart, at least in terms of his legacy and in terms of the depth of some of his compositions. But Mozart would rate more highly purely in terms of "genius" and who knows what he may have achieved if he had lived at least another decade or 2?

(2) Vos Savant's stuff is bollocks.
 
Several people have already made some of the points that I was going to make, so to recap (recap is bolded, I have added expansions in regular text):

1.In the most physical, empirical way, we have exactly 50% of our mother's genes and 50% of our father's genes. the why of it--you don't really have to read all of this... This is because gametes (the ovum cells in women and the sperm cells in men) undergo a different division process than somatic (other body) cells do. Somatic cells undergo mitosis, which is basically a doubling of the DNA and then a splitting of the cell into two identical daughter cells. Gametes, however, undgergo meiosis, which basically divides the cell four times. In somatic cells, chromosomes are double-structured and are paired: in human beings, there are 23 pairs, making 46 chromosomes (47 if a person has Down's Syndrome or another disorder caused by nondysjunction). When a cell undergoes meiosis, the cell divides twice, one meiotic stage right after the other. During the first meiotic stage, the cell divides without first doubling the number of chromosomes--each pair of chromosomes basically pairs up and then when the cell divides, one chromosome from each pair becomes part of each new cell, resulting in haploid cells with double-structured chromosomes. Immediately following this division, a second meiotic devision begins, this time "pulling apart" the double structured chromosomes, such that the four cells formed (two cells from each of the two produced by the previous division) each contain a unique set of haploid (23 chromosomes), single-structured chromosomes. When the male and female gametes meet, the original number of 46 chromosomes is restored.

2. One cannot say that a particular trait is solely due to "nature" or solely due to "nurture". Who each person is depends upon a very complex interaction of the two. The "diathesis-stress" model is an accurate one; a person's genes tend to determine the range of a particular trait that the person is capable of showing (for example, height--two tall parents means several genes may be contributed that contain an allele for height), but the environment may determine how much that trait is expressed (to continue the example, the child does not receive enough nutrition throughout his or her life and therefore ends up reaching a height at the low end of his or her potential, which may be significantly shorter than the parents).

Going beyond these two points, I want to bring up the idea that personality and intelligence might be fluid, and not fixed. This is due in part to the explanation in #2, our intelligence and personality reflect our ever-changing experience with our environment, combined with all of our past experiences with our environment and the ranges of different traits that are expressed in our genes. Intelligence comes largely from having the genetic potential and continuously interacting with material that is slightly above one's current level of functioning. This is not the only form of intelligence, though. Part of intelligence, and expanding one's intelligence, is learning new procedures, which is a different kind of intelligence altogether. We could also go into the theory of multiple intelligences.

In short, I definitely disagree with all parts of the statement proposed in the first post.
 
Krisi, just out of interest, when you talk to people are your conversations structured at all similarly to the way you structure your posts?

I find that the way you write helps me process the information. Evar writes with a similar level of intelligence but I find that I have to read his posts a couple of times and reach down deep into my vocab (and occasionally look up a word) to understand them.

Both points above excellently made and expanded upon. I'm interested in any theories that you have or know of regarding multiple intelligences. I score ridiculously well on any IQ or aptitude tests I take, but in real life situations I often feel a bit dimwitted. My theory is that IQ tests and aptitude tests are probably quite good at estimating the actual intelligence of "NT" types. But because they often depend on one's ability to recognize patterns and variations in shapes and numbers this plays right into my special interests and abilities, so I get a misleadingly high score.
 
Off the top of my head, I think the simplest (and crudest) way to put my thoughts in this are that a child's intelligence = (character = (mom + dad biologically) / 1 part environment) * 3 / (early childhood guardians / role models / other people influencing) * x (self)

So crude, someone want to make English out of that? lol
 
Thanks, Krisi, for the fresh exposition of velvet fullness.

La semplicità colla geometria...

"Intelligence comes largely from having the genetic potential and continuously interacting with material that is slightly above one's current level of functioning."

That's quite a pinoneering thought with a lot of potential dominance. Never muffle that sort of fluid intelligence :). You shall tell us how this might work in the near future. Soon enough hopefully.

Continuity here does not have to be that monotonous, of course. It can be highly twisted or discrete too (for some), especially for more abstract forms of reflexive, bicameral thinking. That involves more spontaneity, glimpsing at a certain threshold of computation, representation, and manipulation.

Also, I strongly remember one case of self-learning other than that. It's highly exceptional and withdrawn, and has something to do with cognitive-verbal dissociation, as opposed to the prevalent system of learning/reading: LOGOCENTRISM (such as in the typical classroom learning, through reading books). I must say that I learned language and mathematics this way too, as a child, through such 'mental ruining' (with rather severe deconstruction and fuzzy, neutrosophic denial, never with simple logical acceptance).

Also, when it comes to intelligence, people still need to consider whether consciousness is an emergent, self-organizing property of the prehistoric 'naked neuron' of evolution theory or not. There are also ideas from Artificial Intelligence about a possible mechatronic equivalent of the cerebral cortex. These might rather be narrow as AI experts tend to easily equate intelligence with computation. The banal part of this, as some say, is that if consciousness is indeed emergent, past a certain classical threshold, then it doesn't even take the polymeric DNA to arrive at Thinking.

I also remember reading Jaynes' recreational book (quite long ago): The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. Consider that case too.

That's mostly about intelligence... what about character? Ancestor worship? :P

But still, I'm tempted to say that life is 'basically female' (remember Jurassic Park): a few species of lizards (even mammals) can actually (in the wild, not just in the lab) have offspring without the male (Y) chromosome (chromosomal trans-location) at all, and certainly without being hermaphrodites. In other words, simply through the self-replication and enzymal self-stimulation of the mt-DNA. (Sure, all the offspring will be female.)

My crude theory is this:

Genetics can be represented as a constitutive matrix with diagonal maternal unitary elements (basically 'expansive' and 'receptive'), and off-diagonal paternal elements and residual maternal elements (acquired from the 'contractive' paternal line of the mother). This is such that evolution, whether micro or macro, isn't possible without the off-diagonal elements.

Anyway, a bit far off, the number four is interesting when it comes to the parallels between biology and physics: the four nucleobases of the DNA (A, G, C, T) and the RNA (A, G, C, U), and the four fundamental forces/fields of physical interaction: gravity, electromagnetism, and the weak and strong nuclear interactions (chromodynamics).

142857's theory:

"My theory is that IQ tests and aptitude tests are probably quite good at estimating the actual intelligence of "NT" types."

That's one globe of a nice conjecture, too. That's also my belief. With all intellectual honesty and independence, plus a little bluntness, I don't easily take any of the present methods for measuring IQ seriously. It is overly pedantic (in the NT sense) and can be grossly misleading especially for non-NT's, and especially when Human Cognition hasn't been entirely mapped out. We don't even know how to test the 'IQ' of a savant yet: they're still studying the architectural circuitry and cognition of the autistic mind, with incremental progress at best. I don't mean how to get the actual number based on a certain method, but how as in 'how to make one genuinely, readily testable'.

To be less serious and threatening, we have even just begun to study how human cognition works in case of mental rotation. Like rotating the YAH (You Are Here) map: it has been recently discovered that the S-N (South-North) representation (orientation) could be more amiable to the general cognition than the usual N-S (North-South) representation. Especially in EMERGENCY situations, for instance when a building is on fire and immediate evacuation is needed. We could even revolutionize aviation this way too (through cognitively amiable gadgets). (That was in my mother's dissertation, some time back.)

Do forgive my dyspraxia, I cannot write the way Krisi architecturally does :lol:. Different geometries. Thank neuronal evolution for her.
 
Do forgive my dyspraxia, I cannot write the way Krisi architecturally does :lol: . Different geometries. Thank evolution for her.
Evar, don't ever change your style. Your posts are one of the best things about this forum. I love the way you write, it just takes my mind a little while to process the information and put it into an order where I can understand it.

Nobody ever said that TS Elliott was a bad poet just because most people couldn't understand his work the first time they read it.
 
Whew... I'm relieved that it's different from the thick darkness of mud to you.

Thanks for being cool! Your posts (and Krisi's) are among the most fun here, certainly. :)


Evar, don't ever change your style. Your posts are one of the best things about this forum. I love the way you write, it just takes my mind a little while to process the information and put it into an order where I can understand it.

Nobody ever said that TS Elliott was a bad poet just because most people couldn't understand his work the first time they read it.
 

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