Christian view of God, Heaven & Salvation opinions

[Magna]

I like to ponder theology among other things.

Lately I've been thinking about the Christian belief in God, Heaven, Salvation, life on Earth, etc. Specifically related to human suffering on Earth and how that figures into Salvation.

For this thread, I'm thinking of two categories of suffering:

1) Suffering which is a direct or indirect consequence of one's own choices based on one's own free will. Direct consequence suffering example could be, choosing to ignore traffic signals and getting hit by a car as a result and sustaining painful lasting repercussions. Indirect consequence suffering example could be, choosing to smoke cigarettes for decades and developing lung cancer as a result.

2) Suffering which is NOT related to a person's actions or choices. Innocent victims who suffer. Examples could be: Children who suffer from painful diseases, human hunger, starvation, war, random acts of violence, random accidents, etc.

For the sake of my ponderance, the first kind of suffering isn't relevant to the discussion.

However, the second kind of suffering: It seems the Christian view is: The Earth is an imperfect place and is rife with suffering. God offers a better alternative in the afterlife (e.g. Heaven) in which there is NO suffering. All you need to do is [ whatever the specific Christian denomination espouses to be the "roadmap" to Heaven ].

^ This perplexes me. I get that the counterbalance, the alternative, the remedy, the "reward" for earthly suffering is taught to be Heaven. However, why does their even need to be the innocent suffering on Earth in order for there to be salvation?

Would the following scenario result in less or no believers going to Heaven?

What if God created Earth as a miniature version of Heaven? No innocent suffering (free will and suffering based on one's own choices still apply as does death). The Christian message being: "Isn't it like "heaven" living on Earth? Do you want to live forever in similar wonderful ways (ie free of suffering)? All you need to do is [ whatever the specific Christian denomination espouses to be the "roadmap" to Heaven ].

Innocent suffering doesn't need to be a requirement at all. An omnipotent God can eliminate innocent suffering. It doesn't have to exist.

It's difficult to square the idea that God is benevolent when unnecessary innocent suffering chosen by God to be in the equation seems malevolent.

 

[FayetheAspie]

Even that suffering is the result of someone's choices even though an innocent person was affected. Due to free will, the other individual has to make their own choices too and sometimes someone's bad choices affect other people.

 

[Magna]

Even that suffering is the result of someone's choices even though an innocent person was affected. Due to free will, the other individual has to make their own choices too and sometimes someone's bad choices affect other people.

^ Very true. There are many examples that would apply here.

Environmental contaminants purposely created (someone's choice) through the manufacture of certain things, past or present can result in certain innocent children contracting terminal illnesses and dying from them. In relation to my ponderance on this topic, God could absolutely prevent such children from contracting such illnesses but still allow people to make choices to create such contaminants.

I agree with your point that the actions and choices of others can have very far reaching effects on innocent people. However, there are many forms of suffering that are not a result of human action/choice.

It could be debated in another thread whether "climate change" as a direct result of human choices results in natural disasters (that can cause an incredible amount of suffering), but natural disasters have been a constant occurrence on this planet for as long as humans have been around and LONG before the concept of human created "climate change". Floods, volcanic eruption, earthquake, famine, disease, naturally created wildfires, extremes in climate (e.g. scorching heat or sub-zero cold), etc. An omnipotent God can choose to simply eliminate such things from the equation.

The idea of: "Life on Earth is full of suffering. Worship me and I'll welcome you to a place that has no suffering." seems like a very human construct/invention, IMO.

 

[Judge]

Good things happen to bad people because they're supposed to. That we reincarnate here as mortal souls to learn lessons not learnable on our primary plane of existence as the eternal souls we actually are.

The good news is that when we have learned whatever lessons we're supposed to learn, we "go home" with the knowledge of such experiences, but not the pain. That our reality as eternal souls that we are magnanimous beings. Willing to continually suffer, but only temporarily as mortals to enlighten our immortal souls.

For me, it's easy to conclude that God is benevolent when it's known that none of our suffering exists on our primary plane of existence. Only here on this primary plane of existence is it meant for us to suffer in spiritual enlightenment. A massive part spiritual enlightenment.

Long ago I removed the yoke of religious dogma created by mortals for mortals. After all, when I die I am no longer mortal. It's not complicated. That suffering truly does exist on this temporary plane of existence only because it's supposed to.

IMO there is no "reward". Just a matter of making a "round trip". Though at times some souls may encounter difficulties making that return trip of their own making. After all, some are so wrapped up in their mortal lives they aren't prepared to give them up. Sad, but it sometimes happens. When such souls need "help" in making it home again.

For clarity, take a step back from the perception of the mortal soul you are on this plane of existence. After all, it won't last forever. And most assuredly, this isn't a "Christian" view at all.