communication issues

[harry]

Howdy folks!

I have a specific situation that is a bit problematic. As this an internet forum it is difficult to discuss every specific detail about each person but it is also not interesting for the question that I am asking.

We have a situation in which we are trying to record some improv sketches (voice acting?). The leaders are two people and they both have an asperger's diagnosis. I don't know how much the leaders actually know about doing improv sketches. They seem to be new to this thing called voice acting.

It is basically four people in the group right now. The leaders disagree with what the goal and the method should be for this project.
It's like they are very different and can't really meet each other where they are.

The big question is: is this actually an asperger's issue? It sounds a bit like something that even people with NT could experience. Some are better at being leaders than others and it has very little to do with whether a person is ASD or NT? Could it be that they don't know enough about the subject? Even NTs experience communication difficulties a lot.

I am not even sure that we should care about whether a person have ASD or NT in this case. It is better to focus on the person in my opinion. Thinking about ASD and NT can lead to thinking about stereotypes and generalizations.

I am aware that a specific situation might need a professional in communication but it is interesting to hear what you have to say.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

Its a good question.

ASD are more rigid than NT and less group oriented minds. So you can expect ASD to love their views and being very honest about them in sittuations where NT would adapt to the common group goals.

Also ASD are worst at predicting social issues, so their honesty may came from not knowing when the other person is done listening, when something is funny or offensive, what others boundaries are, so you can expect us to have childs maturity in many social aspects. Like you was talking with a 5 years old person who already knows how the world works and is already rigth in many things. You may need patience to expand their limited view scopes, and accept that they have black and white thinking and feeling. Of course there are different kind of ASD people in the world, but generally speaking they(we) all have some kind of unmaturity in human-social stuff.

On the other hand NT "please the group" focus make you to miss important points that ASD people will spot. As an example in an emergency sittuation all NT will try exitting a room througth the same emergency door. They will follow the group. Most ASD will spot that there is other emergency door over there that is free and not being used. Also ASD tend to learn way deeper in topics of their interest, to limits were NT dont reach. So you may feel impressed by how much ASD know about certain topics or how they see problems comming that you was not aware because of your group wired mind.

So yes, there are differences and I would not advise you to aproach ASDs ad they were NTs.

Best of luck.

 

[harry]

Its a good question.

ASD are more rigid than NT and less group oriented minds. So you can expect ASD to love their views and being very honest about them in sittuations where NT would adapt to the common group goals.

Also ASD are worst at predicting social issues, so their honesty may came from not knowing when the other person is done listening, when something is funny or offensive, what others boundaries are, so you can expect us to have childs maturity in many social aspects. Like you was talking with a 5 years old person who already knows how the world works and is already rigth in many things. You may need patience to expand their limited view scopes, and accept that they have black and white thinking and feeling. Of course there are different kind of ASD people in the world, but generally speaking they(we) all have some kind of unmaturity in human-social stuff.

On the other hand NT "please the group" focus make you to miss important points that ASD people will spot. As an example in an emergency sittuation all NT will try exitting a room througth the same emergency door. They will follow the group. Most ASD will spot that there is other emergency door over there that is free and not being used. Also ASD tend to learn way deeper in topics of their interest, to limits were NT dont reach. So you may feel impressed by how much ASD know about certain topics or how they see problems comming that you was not aware because of your group wired mind.

So yes, there are differences and I would not advise you to aproach ASDs ad they were NTs.

Best of luck.

I have been told by many people with ASD that people with NT can be very much "this method is the only real good method that we should follow!". I once asked an expert in ASD and he said that we can call this pride. Many people show black n white thinking for different reasons I think.
This would mean that black n white thinking is not really just an ASD issue.
What do you think?
I am actually wondering if starting the project without an expert in voice acting is the big issue here rather than ASD. Or if having two leaders is a bad idea? What do you think?

 

[Atrapa Almas]

I agree with you.

ASD have some common traits and mostly issues since the ASD deffinition was done from a "illness" perspective. You can find many NT who have some autists traits (like being introvert) whithout being autistic (what means here without having enougth issues/problems/traits to calify on the autism current deffinition).

We cant know if a leader is good just by knowing if that person is ASD or NT. Its like having a chinesse leader vs a USA leader. We can prepare to face some cultural differences that are there among most chinesse and USA people but migth be or not be there in chinesse and USA individuals.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

I am actually wondering if starting the project without an expert in voice acting is the big issue here rather than ASD.

This is a good example of black and white thinking. Either you start the project with or without an expert.

You may contact some expert to (as an example) give you some formation, or a way of weekly consulting, or just plain advice while you have some beers. You may find a course to further capacitate and you may share your fears with those leaders to see how they see it. There are probably many approachs in the middle of the two choices you wrote about.

 

[Callistemon]

Also ASD are worst at predicting social issues, so their honesty may came from not knowing when the other person is done listening, when something is funny or offensive, what others boundaries are, so you can expect us to have childs maturity in many social aspects. Like you was talking with a 5 years old person who already knows how the world works and is already rigth in many things. You may need patience to expand their limited view scopes, and accept that they have black and white thinking and feeling. Of course there are different kind of ASD people in the world, but generally speaking they(we) all have some kind of unmaturity in human-social stuff.

That's one view, and one I disagree with. I think it's a vast over-generalisation, and that NT to ND is a continuum, and that there is too much complexity in people and their brains to put them rigidly into boxes like that.

I've worked with NTs and NDs as an educator for nearly 20 years. There's immaturity right across the continuum, and it's not true that all or even most NDs are bad at predicting social issues or are like 5-year-olds in various respects, and also, plenty of NTs (ed.) have these traits, and emotional immaturity is more commonly associated with narcissism than with ASD. I personally find the above generalisations about NDs patronising and broad-brushing, not to mention incorrect.

I am married to someone who is probably ASD or close to it - many ASD traits, including that socialising drains him - but he's good at predicting how social situations will go, excellent at his face-to-face people work, and his view of the world is anything but limited, compared to typical NTs. The above generalisations mostly don't fit him - but standard ASD tests do bring him up as cusp ASD or ASD.

I have traits in common with ASD, but am a people person who connects easily with others and I love and am energised by interacting with others, plus I don't do particularly black-and-white thinking and I don't hold on to pet theories but am constantly modifying my ideas depending on incoming evidence (and that's the main ways I differ from my husband on that trait list). So that itself, from what I can gather, means I don't fit into ASD - and on the online tests I sit about halfway between a "typical" ASD and a "typical" NT. But - I'm also a trained scientist, and am therefore aware of a lot of limitations of the sorts of models of real-world phenomena that are made by science (models are asymptotic if you like - approach increasingly closely but don't actually ever 100% represent the reality of the thing being modelled) - and with psychological models and with things like the DSM, the models are on even shakier ground because of the complexities involved and the difficulty at achieving objectivity (and that explains why the DSM changes far more over time than our atomic models etc - remember that homosexuality used to be in it not that long ago, for example).

So while models are good for showing us various approximations of or ideas about reality, I think they shouldn't be confused with the reality itself, and we should keep in mind that reality is more complex than most of our brains can compute, and that people (NT or ND) are necessarily, by the limitations of their "computers", thinking in terms of pretty simplistic models of reality (with some using simpler models than others).

Human beings are a diverse lot in all sorts of ways - but also are all human. And I think you're onto something in your hunches, @harry.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

Of course its a generalisation, we are talking about NT and ASD differences. If we just say every human is different (which is correct), what are we going to talk about?

About Narcisists and anti social people, I think their emotional issues come more from "not feeling" than from "inmaturity", but thats another topic.

I also see (or think to see) that you use ND and ASD quite as they are the same.

I appreciate your experience and insigth on the topic.

 

[harry]

That's one view, and one I disagree with. I think it's a vast over-generalisation, and that NT to ND is a continuum, and that there is too much complexity in people and their brains to put them rigidly into boxes like that.

I've worked with NTs and NDs as an educator for nearly 20 years. There's immaturity right across the continuum, and it's not true that all or even most NDs are bad at predicting social issues or are like 5-year-olds in various respects, and also, plenty of NDs have these traits, and emotional immaturity is more commonly associated with narcissism than with ASD. I personally find the above generalisations about NDs patronising and broad-brushing, not to mention incorrect.

I am married to someone who is probably ASD or close to it - many ASD traits, including that socialising drains him - but he's good at predicting how social situations will go, excellent at his face-to-face people work, and his view of the world is anything but limited, compared to typical NTs. The above generalisations mostly don't fit him - but standard ASD tests do bring him up as cusp ASD or ASD.

I have traits in common with ASD, but am a people person who connects easily with others and I love and am energised by interacting with others, plus I don't do particularly black-and-white thinking and I don't hold on to pet theories but am constantly modifying my ideas depending on incoming evidence (and that's the main ways I differ from my husband on that trait list). So that itself, from what I can gather, means I don't fit into ASD - and on the online tests I sit about halfway between a "typical" ASD and a "typical" NT. But - I'm also a trained scientist, and am therefore aware of a lot of limitations of the sorts of models of real-world phenomena that are made by science (models are asymptotic if you like - approach increasingly closely but don't actually ever 100% represent the reality of the thing being modelled) - and with psychological models and with things like the DSM, the models are on even shakier ground because of the complexities involved and the difficulty at achieving objectivity (and that explains why the DSM changes far more over time than our atomic models etc - remember that homosexuality used to be in it not that long ago, for example).

So while models are good for showing us various approximations of or ideas about reality, I think they shouldn't be confused with the reality itself, and we should keep in mind that reality is more complex than most of our brains can compute, and that people (NT or ND) are necessarily, by the limitations of their "computers", thinking in terms of pretty simplistic models of reality (with some using simpler models than others).

Human beings are a diverse lot in all sorts of ways - but also are all human. And I think you're onto something in your hunches, @harry.

I am not really a fan of psychiatry's focus on labeling people. Nowadays I am wondering if perhaps this thing can even be a bit dangerous. I wish more people would say that asperger's (or similar diagnoses) can be a bit controversial and even bad.
Many people say that they only want to talk about their issues/problems and not labeling themselves.
It's better, in my opinion, to mention the specific problems a person has rather than focusing on a label.
I once thought that just by knowing that someone has an ASD diagnosis I would know a lot about the person. It turned out that it made thing worse as I focused on stereotypes.
More people should question psychiatry.
It is understandable that you may want to see connection between some behaviours a person has and see an underlying cause or something but perhaps a diagnosis or label won't be of much help.
In voice pedagogy we have the label tenor but it does not say enough about a persons range or way of singing. Even if we have different kinds of tenors, sub-categories, like they have in opera we still can't put people into specific categories. We are unique human beings.
People seem to treat psychiatric diagnoses like if they were very similar to medical diagnoses. They are not. Medical diagnoses might also be problematic (I don't know much about it) but psychiatry is not like medicine.

 

[Callistemon]

I also see (or think to see) that you use ND and ASD quite as they are the same.

I do not. Why would I? ASD is one direction in which ND can go, but not the only one by far. People are complex and neurodiversity is complex. I'm not NT but I don't fit into ASD despite sharing some traits. I've taught a fair few NDs who don't fall into ASD nor are "disabled" by their neurodiversity - there's pros and cons generally, and cases where there's far more advantage than disadvantage from the different setting. Indeed, a fair few ASD-category people in the public spotlight are saying they don't see their "condition" as a disability, even though that's how it is commonly classified. Just as many homosexuals rightly don't view themselves as defective, even though they used to be officially classified as such by psychiatry and are still treated as such by less personally evolved sections of the community.

Everyone has strengths and weaknesses and everyone can work on picking up skills. The problem here I think is the idealisation of the norm, which is a bit like assumed cultural superiority by colonists versus indigenous etc. That in itself creates disadvantage for the people thus labelled lesser-than and is usually a bigger problem than anything else.

In nature, diversity is ultra important for the continued adaptation of species to a changing environment. It is the lifeblood of adaptability and innovation. If we were all the same, that would be severely limiting for us as a species, unhelpful for us as a society, and dull for us as individuals (although some people might feel safer that way - usually the ones who have the biggest personal issues with anyone being different from them).

 

[Callistemon]

Erratum: I made a typo in my post last night which I have now fixed for clarification. I used ND where I meant to use NT in one instance, and I've bold-faced the correction. Sorry about any confusion!

 

[Callistemon]

Of course its a generalisation, we are talking about NT and ASD differences. If we just say every human is different (which is correct), what are we going to talk about?
.

You are talking about the differences, Harry was commenting on similarities. And there's ways of talking about differences that are neither patronising, nor deeply factually incorrect because vastly over-generalised. The use of qualifiers when writing is a good start.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

And there's ways of talking about differences that are neither patronising, nor deeply factually incorrect because vastly over-generalised. The use of qualifiers when writing is a good start.

Deeply factually incorrect?

Could you elaborate on what did I say that is deeply factually incorrect?

I think I will save that word construct for the future, never read it and sounds funny.

 

[Stuttermabolur]

I feel like this thread is getting slightly off topic (though it is an interesting discussion).

@harry, I don't think the best approach is to ignore the ASD diagnosis. It gives you information that could prove useful, just like knowing they have a deep voice, suffer from stage fright or use a wheelchair (none of those comparisons are meant to be disparaging in any way). In terms of personality and behaviour, it is absolutely correct that people on the spectrum are very diverse and it's impossible to generalize. I understand your reticence to "label" people (I dislike it myself), but there are a few traits which are quite common and you can leverage or work around. My no. 1 advice would always be to get to know them personally and adapt accordingly.

People on the spectrum are often bad at taking hints or reading into things. I recommend giving them as clear instructions as you possibly can as that will reduce frustrations for everyone (I went to a singing coach once, and did much better when she told me which muscles to tense rather than telling me to imagine eating an apple).

People can also be very stubborn (I often am). I recommend that if there is some discomfort, or they are behaving irrationally/not doing what you ask of them, to hear them out, and not get impatient. They might have some good points or there might be a misunderstanding.

Finally, people can be very different, so it's up to you to judge, but try to keep the environment low stress in general if you can. Look at their body language to see if they are stressed or worried. They might not be if they enjoy doing this and everything is going smoothly, but just something to keep in mind. Personally, I really like it when I can get on with work without outside interference or disturbance with clear instructions, but that might be difficult for this type of work.

I wish you well!

 

[harry]

I feel like this thread is getting slightly off topic (though it is an interesting discussion).

@harry, I don't think the best approach is to ignore the ASD diagnosis. It gives you information that could prove useful, just like knowing they have a deep voice, suffer from stage fright or use a wheelchair (none of those comparisons are meant to be disparaging in any way). In terms of personality and behaviour, it is absolutely correct that people on the spectrum are very diverse and it's impossible to generalize. I understand your reticence to "label" people (I dislike it myself), but there are a few traits which are quite common and you can leverage or work around. My no. 1 advice would always be to get to know them personally and adapt accordingly.

People on the spectrum are often bad at taking hints or reading into things. I recommend giving them as clear instructions as you possibly can as that will reduce frustrations for everyone (I went to a singing coach once, and did much better when she told me which muscles to tense rather than telling me to imagine eating an apple).

People can also be very stubborn (I often am). I recommend that if there is some discomfort, or they are behaving irrationally/not doing what you ask of them, to hear them out, and not get impatient. They might have some good points or there might be a misunderstanding.

Finally, people can be very different, so it's up to you to judge, but try to keep the environment low stress in general if you can. Look at their body language to see if they are stressed or worried. They might not be if they enjoy doing this and everything is going smoothly, but just something to keep in mind. Personally, I really like it when I can get on with work without outside interference or disturbance with clear instructions, but that might be difficult for this type of work.

I wish you well!

A deep voice? Doesn't say me much even if I know a bit about voice types. It can mean different things to different people.

 

[harry]

People on the spectrum are often bad at taking hints or reading into things. I recommend giving them as clear instructions as you possibly can as that will reduce frustrations for everyone (I went to a singing coach once, and did much better when she told me which muscles to tense rather than telling me to imagine eating an apple).

Are you sure NT people don't need this as well?
Most singing teachers don't really know how to help people with the basics. Most of them are never trained in helping beginners. I had a singing teacher who was a spewch therapist so she knew all of it. I never needed speech therapy but I needed the basics.
I am aware that more procent of the people with ASD than NT might need more "going through the basics" but I don't think an ASD will help much in this case. You analyse a person.
How would an ASD tell a teacher what a person needs?

I hear you saying "it takes time to analyse a person so just look at the diagnosis as that won't take as long'
What do you say?
I am not a fan of categorizing.

 

[Stuttermabolur]

Are you sure NT people don't need this as well?
Most singing teachers don't really know how to help people with the basics. Most of them are never trained in helping beginners. I had a singing teacher who was a spewch therapist so she knew all of it. I never needed speech therapy but I needed the basics.
I am aware that more procent of the people with ASD than NT might need more "going through the basics" but I don't think an ASD will help much in this case. You analyse a person.
How would an ASD tell a teacher what a person needs?

I hear you saying "it takes time to analyse a person so just look at the diagnosis as that won't take as long'
What do you say?
I am not a fan of categorizing.

You asked for advice, and I gave you advice which I consider practical and would have helped me. You are free to use it or not, but I'm not really sure what you are after since it seems like you have already decided that the diagnosis doesn't matter or won't change anything. The categorization and diagnosis topic is a much larger discussions there already are numerous threads about.

I'm sure some of the advice I recommend for helping people with ASD adapt to their environment and optimize their performance would be useful for those not on the spectrum as well, but I consider the advice I mentioned particularly useful for people on the spectrum since they often have some traits in common as I mentioned. A diagnosis is absolutely a shortcut (which is why I specifically mentioned that the best things to do would be to get to know them personally), but I don't think there is anything wrong with using a shortcut occasionally, especially in employment when you are on schedule. The "deep voice" is a reference to how a voice coach or director would place people in roles that best fit their characteristics or adapt to them when needed. I don't really understand what you mean by your comment there. It was meant to explain the framework of my advice, but it might just have made it more confusing.

I wish you luck. I tend to look at the practical side of things and sometimes overexplain (you can look at the rest of my comments for confirmation) so don't read too much into my replies or draw conclusions about my personal opinions from them (since it's irrelevant to the usefulness of the advice, which is why I tried to steer away from the debate happening).

 

[Atrapa Almas]

Mmmm, there is a very nice free university course about autism in the work place
that @VictorR recomends: Autism and Neurodiversity in the Workplace | Centre for Interdisciplinary Research and Collaboration in Autism

You can also learn about the differences in ASD brains, and maturity issues reading Temple Grandin book: "The autistic brain"

There is much to learn about the general category of ASD, and on the other hand you can use that time to better know the ASD individuals you are going to work by talking with them.

I think either aproach is valid, and a mixed one is also valid. You could learn general stuff about ASD and also spend time knowing the individuals.

Learning doesnt hurt, neither do knowing people better.

 

[harry]

You asked for advice, and I gave you advice which I consider practical and would have helped me. You are free to use it or not, but I'm not really sure what you are after since it seems like you have already decided that the diagnosis doesn't matter or won't change anything. The categorization and diagnosis topic is a much larger discussions there already are numerous threads about.

I'm sure some of the advice I recommend for helping people with ASD adapt to their environment and optimize their performance would be useful for those not on the spectrum as well, but I consider the advice I mentioned particularly useful for people on the spectrum since they often have some traits in common as I mentioned. A diagnosis is absolutely a shortcut (which is why I specifically mentioned that the best things to do would be to get to know them personally), but I don't think there is anything wrong with using a shortcut occasionally, especially in employment when you are on schedule. The "deep voice" is a reference to how a voice coach or director would place people in roles that best fit their characteristics or adapt to them when needed. I don't really understand what you mean by your comment there. It was meant to explain the framework of my advice, but it might just have made it more confusing.

I wish you luck. I tend to look at the practical side of things and sometimes overexplain (you can look at the rest of my comments for confirmation) so don't read too much into my replies or draw conclusions about my personal opinions from them (since it's irrelevant to the usefulness of the advice, which is why I tried to steer away from the debate happening).

I'm not saying that you are wrong.
My experience is that things might be more common in people with ASD but it is not a specific ASD issue.
Motor skills or coordination issues are probably more common for people with ASD but many people with NT can have issues with it as well.
I am not sure what difficulties are very much ASD problems.
Please tell me what you people think are very much ASD problems/difficulties in the situation that I mentioned. I am willing to learn.

I say that people with ASD need much more time processing information. It takes much longer to process information. This is very common in asperger's. I have never met a pwrson with asperger's for whom this wasn't a big thing. I am refering to processing new info.
Sure, other diagnoses also include this but for other reasons.
People with NT do have problems with processing information at times but it seems to be for other reasons such as thinking that they are better at it than what they are or too much going on in a day.
What do you say?

 

[Stuttermabolur]

I'm not saying that you are wrong.
My experience is that things might be more common in people with ASD but it is not a specific ASD issue.
Motor skills or coordination issues are probably more common for people with ASD but many people with NT can have issues with it as well.
I am not sure what difficulties are very much ASD problems.
Please tell me what you people think are very much ASD problems/difficulties in the situation that I mentioned. I am willing to learn.

I gave you three examples in my first comment. I don't think many issues are exclusively problems people on the spectrum deal with, and I don't claim they are, but some traits (needing specific instructions/taking things literally, overstimulation/anxiety, stubbornness) are more common, and I think it's good to be cognizant about them and perhaps work around them. Also, as @Atrapas Almas mentioned, ultimately it's best to get to know them personally, I just don't have overview over your entire workplace situation and dynamics within the team and I think information (like an ASD diagnosis) could be of use. His link will probably be more useful than any advice I can give, so I recommend checking it out.