Conformity does more harm than good to society

[gl00m]

We all have to conform to some degree in order to be socially accepted or otherwise we would be ostracized from society.
For example a shameless man who wears a white tank top at a workplace is going to be socially rejected by coworkers and boss for completely disregarding social etiquette.

Every society needs at least some degree of conformity or otherwise it wouldn't function and it would be anarchical.

I'm not against conformity. I am against mindless/irrational/sheepish conformity or herd mentality that our contemporary society suffers from.

I am not a anti-conformist, I am a little conformist myself, we all in fact are.

I don't despise people who occasionally conform, I despise people who conform for the sake of conforming. People who choose conformity over reason, even in the presence of superior evidence to the contrary.

There is a quote from Rollo May:
"The opposite for courage is not cowardice, it is conformity. Even a dead fish can go with the flow".

Conformists are often insecure people because they fear social rejection if they don't conform. They are cowards because they are being society's slave, instead of being themselves.

Conformity isn't always a bad thing. For example I remember a classmate from High School who didn't take care of his hygiene and would wear the same clothes everyday. Naturally, peers mocked him for it. He became self-aware and started dressing better and didn't smell.

This is a positive example of conformity, but the truth is that there are much more negative examples in which conformity does more harm than good to society.

I'll give you some examples:

- if you don't listen to music or don't have favorite music, you're a weirdo.
- if you don't drink beer, you're not a real man, because real men drink beer!
- if you're a virgin, you are gay (nobody thinks of bisexual, asexual or involuntary celibate?)
- women and men can't be friends
- you never smoked??? Let me give you a cigarette (why do you want me to become a smoker too? That's bizzare.)
- virgin-shaming is okay (just another excuse for bullying)
- you really don't have facebook??? What a loser...

 

[Progster]

This is what I call "mindless copycat syndrome". People doing things just because other people are doing them, without thinking about what they are actually doing.

It bugs me when the fact that a majority of people are doing something becomes a justification to do something illogical. For example: listening to music that you don't really like, simply because most of the kids at your school listen to it. Or starting to smoke, even though you are aware of the danger to your health, just because your mates are all doing it. Or a kid writing graffiti on his desk, or on a wall, and then when s/he is caught, the excuse is "but so-and-so also did it" As if the fact that someone else is doing it somehow excuses his/her behaviour. People throwing litter in the street, because other people have also done the same.

 

[gl00m]

This is what I call "mindless copycat syndrome". People doing things just because other people are doing them, without thinking about what they are actually doing.

It bugs me when the fact that a majority of people are doing something becomes a justification to do something illogical. For example: listening to music that you don't really like, simply because most of the kids at your school listen to it. Or starting to smoke, even though you are aware of the danger to your health, just because your mates are all doing it. Or a kid writing graffiti on his desk, or on a wall, and then when s/he is caught, the excuse is "but so-and-so also did it" As if the fact that someone else is doing it somehow excuses his/her behaviour. People throwing litter in the street, because other people have also done the same.

To me this is irresponsible behavior.

 

[Autistamatic]

"I prefer people to sheeple" was the way I always used to put it.

I can certainly relate to what you describe and we see it all around us, from ridiculous fashions to the bigoted echo chambers online that reinforce negative stereotypes. I agree it is dangerous, especially to free thinkers such as ourselves.

I can't speak for ALL of us, but it's fairly typical for AS people to be relatively immune to peer pressure, so free thinking isn't so much a choice as a necessity of survival. I've learned my own form of conformity largely by keeping many of my opinions to myself in public. They may have logic and objective fact to back them up, but that can count for little against the onslaught of emotion and cognitive dissonance.
Personally I'm not keen on the term "normies" because it has opposite implications of abnormality for the rest of us and sounds too "them and us" if you get my meaning. I stopped saying "sheeple" for the same reason. However apt such terms may seem they serve to increase the divide.

 

[gl00m]

"I prefer people to sheeple" was the way I always used to put it.

I can certainly relate to what you describe and we see it all around us, from ridiculous fashions to the bigoted echo chambers online that reinforce negative stereotypes. I agree it is dangerous, especially to free thinkers such as ourselves.

I can't speak for ALL of us, but it's fairly typical for AS people to be relatively immune to peer pressure, so free thinking isn't so much a choice as a necessity of survival. I've learned my own form of conformity largely by keeping many of my opinions to myself in public. They may have logic and objective fact to back them up, but that can count for little against the onslaught of emotion and cognitive dissonance.
Personally I'm not keen on the term "normies" because it has opposite implications of abnormality for the rest of us and sounds too "them and us" if you get my meaning. I stopped saying "sheeple" for the same reason. However apt such terms may seem they serve to increase the divide.

I needed a word to differentiate healthy conformists from unhealthy conformists (normies). Even if it sounds demeaning or pejorative.

 

[Autistamatic]

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not passing judgement, simply expressing a concern. I bore witness to a time when AS representation online was full of vitriol against the exact people you describe and "normies" or "norms" were exactly the words that were used.
It's a very real phenomenon and I've struggled to find a convenient word which DOESN'T sound pejorative myself. "Hyper Conformists" is the best I've managed or "Group Thinkers", neither of which trips off the tongue.

 

[Progster]

To me this is irresponsible behavior.

Yes, this is true, but I don't just mean things that are irresponsible. I also mean things like following a fashion, for example, jeans with holes ripped in them which, to my mind, makes no sense whatsoever. But if you ask them why they like this particular fashion, they have no answer, and that's because they don't really know - they only wear the jeans because they have seen lots of other people wearing them, or because the others in their friendship group are all wearing them. If they give another reason - perhaps because the jeans are cooler on a hot day, then this is logical and reasonable, but just to wear them because others are doing so or just to fit in doesn't seem like a good reason to me, I would never do that.

 

[Misery]

I tend to think there are some people that genuinely dont conform. Not many... but some.

I *might* be an example... it's hard to tell.

I've always had a tendancy to simply do whatever in the bloody hell I want, regardless of what the "norm" is... provided I even know what the "norm" is.

Examples:

Fashion? I dont have one. I generally only wear basic shirts and sweatpants. Why? They're comfortable, and as far as I'm concerned, that's the entire point. People tend to think wearing sweatpants all the time is weird (heck if I know why). Those people can go jump off a cliff (this kind of thinking is a running theme here).

My overall appearance isnt any more normal, really. I'm male, but I tend to look like a girl (to the point where I get mistaken for one sometimes). Why? Because I do, that's why. The fact that my clothing happens to be extremely neutral is part of it, but moreso my face, hair, & bodyshape are a big part of it. I do nothing to change this. Dont want to. In addition, I almost always have a 3-foot-long keychain wrapped around my arm (I'd have a hard time really explaining this one, just roll with it). This is the first thing most people seem to notice. If I'm at a convention (anime/gaming convention, mostly the gaming side in my case), I get even more strange. I do cosplay, because I like it, and absolutely will dress up as female characters if I bloody well feel like it. Why? Because I know I can pull it off, and it's fun, so I do it. Frankly the cosplay is the core reason I go to those. I like costumes and I tend to be extremely obsessive about characters I like... you do the math.

I dont drink. Ever. I see alchohol as... well, I often call it a "potion of stupidity", because that's exactly what it is to me. So I never, ever touch it. I dont care if that makes me less "cool" or something. Hell if I know why society thinks that making a damn fool of yourself is a good idea. Frankly, I really dont want to know. Baffling.

I dont watch movies. It's not that they're bad or anything. They're just long and I dont care enough. I'm not exactly big on patience. And really if I want a good story, I'll just read a book (which doesnt have to be done in a single sitting). I dont really watch TV either, because screw it.

I dont do relationships or have even the slightest interest in romance. I just... dont... care. And frankly most people are rather disgusting anyway.

I dont do parties or social events. Again, people are disgusting. Not too interested in interacting with them.

I do have friends, but very, very few, and they're all the sort that just tend to go along with my general weirdness. So there's no pressure to fit into some stupid clique or anything. I dunno why people do that anyway.

No social media. Again, dont care enough.

My main hobby is gaming, but I tend not to play the biggest games. Like Call of Halos or whatever damn shooter it is currently. Fortnite, I think? Feh. It's not BECAUSE they're popular. It's because I simply dont like them. So I tend to stick to indie games. Those devs make the stuff I like, and I dont want to play games I DONT like, so... seems logical to me. And there are some exceptions too... a very few "big" games that I will play. Just very, very few. The way I see it... if it's good and I like it, that's all I need.

Also, I dont listen to music. Well, to be more specific: I dont listen to music with lyrics in it. Aside from the fact that I have trouble even understanding what they're saying, it just interferes with the actual notes. And on top of that, most songs are about one of three things: love, relationships, or how great some guy's girlfriend is. YAWN. Someone could make a song about freaking carpentry and it'd be more interesting. What I actually end up listening to is music ripped straight out of games that I'm into at the time. And to be even more specific, this is typically only done via my car's music player or whatever it is. I dont listen to a darned thing if I'm not in the car.

No restaurants, either. They take too long. When I'm ready to have my meal, I'm ready RIGHT THE HELL NOW. I also only ever eat alone. I like to watch things on Youtube while having my meal, so I'm always here at this funky table that passes for a desk when it's meal time.

And lastly, I dont even TRY to hide any of this. Again, just dont care. If someone I meet has a problem with any of it? Well, freaking tough. For them, that is... it's not MY problem.


So, there... that's that. And I know I'm far from the only one that is like this. But it is unfortunate that it is so rare, yeah? When I think about it, it's actually something I like about the conventions I go to: an anime/gaming con is REALLY bizarre by default... I could tell stories here, and frankly nobody would believe me. But the point is, at these places, I tend to observe that alot of people are WAY more likely to truly be themselves, no matter how "strange" that might make them seem. It's just so much more INTERESTING that way, and thus, much more fun. As compared to the bland boredom of "normal" society. And I dont deal well with boredom.

And I'm going to take a guess and say that this forum, moreso than most, is a magnet for people that think in a similar way to myself. I've noticed that quite a few that I've met who are on the spectrum tend to simply not give a fart.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not passing judgement, simply expressing a concern. I bore witness to a time when AS representation online was full of vitriol against the exact people you describe and "normies" or "norms" were exactly the words that were used.

Yeah, I'm going to agree to this, but not for quite the same reason.

My reason is: It makes it immediately harder to take someone seriously, the moment they use the word "normie". It's not that it's "insulting" or something. It's that it sounds like something some jerk on 4chan came up with. One of those internet terms that causes people to just stop listening/reading right away. Even I tend to do exactly that as soon as I see that word. Were it any forum other than this one, I would have in fact done that.

There, I'm done rambling now. I've likely accomplished nothing at all with this post. You're welcome.

 

[gl00m]

I tend to think there are some people that genuinely dont conform. Not many... but some.

I *might* be an example... it's hard to tell.

I've always had a tendancy to simply do whatever in the bloody hell I want, regardless of what the "norm" is... provided I even know what the "norm" is.

Examples:

Fashion? I dont have one. I generally only wear basic shirts and sweatpants. Why? They're comfortable, and as far as I'm concerned, that's the entire point. People tend to think wearing sweatpants all the time is weird (heck if I know why). Those people can go jump off a cliff (this kind of thinking is a running theme here).

My overall appearance isnt any more normal, really. I'm male, but I tend to look like a girl (to the point where I get mistaken for one sometimes). Why? Because I do, that's why. The fact that my clothing happens to be extremely neutral is part of it, but moreso my face, hair, & bodyshape are a big part of it. I do nothing to change this. Dont want to. In addition, I almost always have a 3-foot-long keychain wrapped around my arm (I'd have a hard time really explaining this one, just roll with it). This is the first thing most people seem to notice. If I'm at a convention (anime/gaming convention, mostly the gaming side in my case), I get even more strange. I do cosplay, because I like it, and absolutely will dress up as female characters if I bloody well feel like it. Why? Because I know I can pull it off, and it's fun, so I do it. Frankly the cosplay is the core reason I go to those. I like costumes and I tend to be extremely obsessive about characters I like... you do the math.

I dont drink. Ever. I see alchohol as... well, I often call it a "potion of stupidity", because that's exactly what it is to me. So I never, ever touch it. I dont care if that makes me less "cool" or something. Hell if I know why society thinks that making a damn fool of yourself is a good idea. Frankly, I really dont want to know. Baffling.

I dont watch movies. It's not that they're bad or anything. They're just long and I dont care enough. I'm not exactly big on patience. And really if I want a good story, I'll just read a book (which doesnt have to be done in a single sitting). I dont really watch TV either, because screw it.

I dont do relationships or have even the slightest interest in romance. I just... dont... care. And frankly most people are rather disgusting anyway.

I dont do parties or social events. Again, people are disgusting. Not too interested in interacting with them.

I do have friends, but very, very few, and they're all the sort that just tend to go along with my general weirdness. So there's no pressure to fit into some stupid clique or anything. I dunno why people do that anyway.

No social media. Again, dont care enough.

My main hobby is gaming, but I tend not to play the biggest games. Like Call of Halos or whatever damn shooter it is currently. Fortnite, I think? Feh. It's not BECAUSE they're popular. It's because I simply dont like them. So I tend to stick to indie games. Those devs make the stuff I like, and I dont want to play games I DONT like, so... seems logical to me. And there are some exceptions too... a very few "big" games that I will play. Just very, very few. The way I see it... if it's good and I like it, that's all I need.

Also, I dont listen to music. Well, to be more specific: I dont listen to music with lyrics in it. Aside from the fact that I have trouble even understanding what they're saying, it just interferes with the actual notes. And on top of that, most songs are about one of three things: love, relationships, or how great some guy's girlfriend is. YAWN. Someone could make a song about freaking carpentry and it'd be more interesting. What I actually end up listening to is music ripped straight out of games that I'm into at the time. And to be even more specific, this is typically only done via my car's music player or whatever it is. I dont listen to a darned thing if I'm not in the car.

No restaurants, either. They take too long. When I'm ready to have my meal, I'm ready RIGHT THE HELL NOW. I also only ever eat alone. I like to watch things on Youtube while having my meal, so I'm always here at this funky table that passes for a desk when it's meal time.

And lastly, I dont even TRY to hide any of this. Again, just dont care. If someone I meet has a problem with any of it? Well, freaking tough. For them, that is... it's not MY problem.


So, there... that's that. And I know I'm far from the only one that is like this. But it is unfortunate that it is so rare, yeah? When I think about it, it's actually something I like about the conventions I go to: an anime/gaming con is REALLY bizarre by default... I could tell stories here, and frankly nobody would believe me. But the point is, at these places, I tend to observe that alot of people are WAY more likely to truly be themselves, no matter how "strange" that might make them seem. It's just so much more INTERESTING that way, and thus, much more fun. As compared to the bland boredom of "normal" society. And I dont deal well with boredom.

And I'm going to take a guess and say that this forum, moreso than most, is a magnet for people that think in a similar way to myself. I've noticed that quite a few that I've met who are on the spectrum tend to simply not give a fart.



Yeah, I'm going to agree to this, but not for quite the same reason.

My reason is: It makes it immediately harder to take someone seriously, the moment they use the word "normie". It's not that it's "insulting" or something. It's that it sounds like something some jerk on 4chan came up with. One of those internet terms that causes people to just stop listening/reading right away. Even I tend to do exactly that as soon as I see that word. Were it any forum other than this one, I would have in fact done that.

There, I'm done rambling now. I've likely accomplished nothing at all with this post. You're welcome.

Thank you for pointing this out. I edited the thread and removed the word normie from sentences. I will no longer use the word normie.

I was self-aware before I made this thread, that the word normie is used by toxic people from Reddit and 4Chan and that it sounds immature and something a 14 year old would say.
Your post confirmed my beliefs.

But for the lack of a better word to describe those who unhealthily conform and without thinking, I used the word normie.

And its better to say herd mentality than sheeple.

 

[HidinginPlainSight]

It has its evolutionary advantages and is not going away. The ability to mimic, and the willingness to do so, is a form of behavioral learning.

On a granular level it's easy to point at things you don't like, but overall people, for better or worse, have relied on the cohesiveness of the social unit. Humans are not the faster or strongest animal out there. We are likely the most fierce and violent animal out there, but even in that we rely on conformity to be really good at it. Think of a lone gunman against a well trained and completely conformed army.

 

[Pats]

My lack of conformity is why everyone just took all my quirks as just being me. I like the music and tv shows that I like and not going to watch your shows just so we can talk about it. I'm the one wearing a white peasant skirt to a drag race and pants to church. My taste has not changed in 45 years and if you have a problem with that, I won't lose sleep over it. I want to be who I am, not just another in the follow the leader line.

 

[LearnedCoward]

- if you don't listen to music or don't have favorite music, you're a weirdo.

I listen to music, but there's so much music out there that I don't have a favorite. I don't even have a favorite genre, and if I did, it would almost certainly be something most people don't listen to.

- if you don't drink beer, you're not a real man, because real men drink beer!

I've come to the conclusion that I hate beer. I hate the low-grade dive-bar stuff, I hate the prissy microbrew IPAs that all taste the same, I hate pretty much everything in between. I've had enough beer to realize that I hate beer.

- women and men can't be friends

I would say yes, men and women can be friends, but that really works on a case-by-case basis. Generally, men and women can't be friends, especially in the NT world, but if a man and a woman are just friends I'm not going to begrudge them their friendship. Possible, but not likely.

See also, "friends with your ex". On a scale from zero to impossible, being friends with your ex falls somewhere between men and women being friends, and peace in the Middle East.

- you never smoked??? Let me give you a cigarette (why do you want me to become a smoker too? That's bizzare.)

Their logic is, "don't knock it until you've tried it".

But once I try it, I knock it all I want.

Sometimes I don't even need to try it to knock it

- you really don't have facebook??? What a loser..

I think people are losers if they do use Bookface. Facebook is for people who spend way too much time online but aren't hip to the social networks that the "cool kids"* are using. In other words, 40-something divorced people who live in the same town they grew up in.

*well, at least they think their cool

 

[Nervous Rex]

If we were all 100% conformist, I agree with Ms. Grandin - we'd all still be living in caves. If we were 100% nonconformist, no effective knowledge or behavior would endure past the life of the person who found it ... and we'd all still be living in caves.

We need both.

Conformity is an easy way to preserve useful knowledge and behaviors without having to teach the general population why they're useful. It means that just by copying those around me, I can have a more effective, useful, safe, etc., life than without copying. It propagates useful traits with the bare minimum amount of effort and learning.

We need diversity to find improvements. We need a few guinea pigs to question old ways (or be incapable of recognizing and emulating old ways) and try something new once in a while.

Congratulations, AutismForums. You're the guinea pigs.

 

[pamelaperejil]

...I despise people who conform for the sake of conforming.

I would argue that that's what conforming is, by definition. "Conforming" for any other reason isn't really conforming (in the negative sense of the word), it's just making a choice.

 

[George Newman]

I needed a word to differentiate healthy conformists from unhealthy conformists (normies). Even if it sounds demeaning or pejorative.

Definition of pejorative
: a word or phrase that has negative connotations (see connotation 1) or that is intended to disparage or belittle : a pejorative word or phrase

If I had to look it up others may have as well.

 

[FreeDiver]

It boils down to a balance. Too much is just as bad as not having enough.

 

[tducey]

To me it's good to have differences. To much of the same thing is not good.

 

[Tesseract]

I'll give you some examples:

- if you don't listen to music or don't have favorite music, you're a weirdo.
- if you don't drink beer, you're not a real man, because real men drink beer!
- if you're a virgin, you are gay (nobody thinks of bisexual, asexual or involuntary celibate?)
- women and men can't be friends
- you never smoked??? Let me give you a cigarette (why do you want me to become a smoker too? That's bizzare.)
- virgin-shaming is okay (just another excuse for bullying)
- you really don't have facebook??? What a loser...

Hmm, let's see how many of these I have.
1. I do listen to music, but I don't know what kind of music I would prefer above all other kinds. I don't like doof-doof though. Or classical. Or jazz. Or heavy metal. Anything other than those is okay.
2. I don't drink beer, because it's disgusting. I don't like scotch either, that's even worse. Not a "real man"? Tell someone who actually cares. What do "real men" do anyway (other than drink beer)? Drag their knuckles along the ground and beat their wives? Grunt instead of speak? Watch football?
3. Nope, not "gay". There's nothing wrong with being a virgin. Sex is grossly over-rated (or maybe it's just gross - I wouldn't know, I've never done it).
4. Men and women can be friends! Why not?
5. Never smoked. It's a disgusting habit that wrecks your health. Plus it's a complete waste of money to purchase cigarettes. Some people just need to keep their mouths busy for some strange reason.
6. "Virgin-shaming". Well, it goes without saying that people who engage in this kind of behaviour are, in my not-so-humble opinion, lower than cockroaches. People like that need to be squashed.
7. Never had Fakebook! People who do are the true losers, because (among other reasons) they actually believe those they meet online deserve to be called "friends". How pathetic is that!?

 

[Mattymatt]

We all have to conform to some degree in order to be socially accepted or otherwise we would be ostracized from society.
For example a shameless man who wears a white tank top at a workplace is going to be socially rejected by coworkers and boss for completely disregarding social etiquette.

Every society needs at least some degree of conformity or otherwise it wouldn't function and it would be anarchical.

I'm not against conformity. I am against mindless/irrational/sheepish conformity or herd mentality that our contemporary society suffers from.

I am not a anti-conformist, I am a little conformist myself, we all in fact are.

I don't despise people who occasionally conform, I despise people who conform for the sake of conforming. People who choose conformity over reason, even in the presence of superior evidence to the contrary.

There is a quote from Rollo May:
"The opposite for courage is not cowardice, it is conformity. Even a dead fish can go with the flow".

Conformists are often insecure people because they fear social rejection if they don't conform. They are cowards because they are being society's slave, instead of being themselves.

Conformity isn't always a bad thing. For example I remember a classmate from High School who didn't take care of his hygiene and would wear the same clothes everyday. Naturally, peers mocked him for it. He became self-aware and started dressing better and didn't smell.

This is a positive example of conformity, but the truth is that there are much more negative examples in which conformity does more harm than good to society.

I'll give you some examples:

- if you don't listen to music or don't have favorite music, you're a weirdo.
- if you don't drink beer, you're not a real man, because real men drink beer!
- if you're a virgin, you are gay (nobody thinks of bisexual, asexual or involuntary celibate?)
- women and men can't be friends
- you never smoked??? Let me give you a cigarette (why do you want me to become a smoker too? That's bizzare.)
- virgin-shaming is okay (just another excuse for bullying)
- you really don't have facebook??? What a loser...

This is why I am becoming an Anarcho-Communist in my old age. I've had it with capitalism and the whole conformity expectations that go along with it.

 

[Adora]

I believe that not wanting to conform or maybe a better way of saying it is I didn’t want to do something just because everyone was doing or it was in “Trend” was a factor in why I was badly bullied in school,I never got into a band just because they were popular and tend to like older music more than what is current,but because at the time I couldn’t understand why people do things just because it’s popular it didn’t help me while in school,even now I don’t like just following trends and like things simply because I enjoy them,I cannot force myself to even pretend to like something just to fit in it’s something I cannot do and also saying something is good because everyone is into it is a instant turn off for me.