Disorder?

[danjustlovescoffee]

Why do we say that ASD is a disorder and NT is not a disorder?
What's so great about NT? I don't get it. Some of the NT people seem disorder to me but apparently the world wants NT people and no ASD people.
Anyway, my thinking is that NT people often focus on the "whole picture". Sometimes that's good but it can also lead to carelessness or not learning something good enough. I don't like group learning with a bunch of NT people as many of them might refuse to learn the fundamentals. NTs skip a lot of the fundamnetal details. They hyperfocus on the "whole picture". They look disodered to me. They say that I am disordered as I cannot skip a lot of the fundamentals when I learn something.
Why are they not disordered?

I don't know much about ASD and NT so please explain this to me.

 

[SDRSpark]

NT is considered "normal" because it's the majority. ASD is considered "disorder" because NT's said so, they're the ones that categorized us, there are more of them than there are of us.

 

[Progster]

One thing I don't get, how can one get the big picture without first knowing the details?

 

[danjustlovescoffee]

NT is considered "normal" because it's the majority. ASD is considered "disorder" because NT's said so, they're the ones that categorized us, there are more of them than there are of us.

"disordered" accordiong to most people or the DSM is just "not in the majority"?

 

[Progster]

I don't think anyone is 'disordered', neither NTs nor neurodiverse. It's a term coined as a descriptor for people who are different to the majority, to give a label, to pigeonhole. People just... are.

 

[danjustlovescoffee]

One thing I don't get, how can one get the big picture without first knowing the details?

you skip some of the details. you skip some of the fundamentals but not all. NTs are often very good at this. I suck at it!

 

[Aspychata]

Hate disorder word but it is just a word. NTs and NDs have issues. Our issues are just more noticeable and sadly, some of us are more easier to con due to our trusting type nature. But there are NTs who are duped also, there just isn't anybody reporting it.

So to me, it's strength of us to organize and present as one unified body with strategic ways to help us in employment, housing, abusive situations requiring counselling. The things we do wallow around in to some extent. Is this going to happen, probably not. It would be like bipolars getting together and finding unity but they are too busy in their own mind to do so.

We should be in areas that require detail because so many of us are great at that. The stigma of being on the spectrum still seems to exist and that is a great tool used by NT's to keep us powerless and marginalized. I have run into this with my own family and some friends.

There is always a tier of those who control and those who don't. This power balance shifts according to society's slant towards greed and power. Some on the spectrum are in that small elite group. It would be great if those types would contribute more funding and resources and bring our strengths foward to help society.

 

[Suzette]

One thing I don't get, how can one get the big picture without first knowing the details?

For me, I like to start with the overview because I can see how and why the details fit together better. But if you just hand me an udder, some hoofs and a tail, I struggle with figuring out what animal you are making. But if you say "today we are making a cow" then I can arrange the parts appropriately and will know if details are missing.

My experience with in world has been that most people just hand you a jumble of parts and expect you to just do what you are told without any basis for the "why" of it. And to me, the why or reason for those parts IS the fundamental information that is missing.

Regarding the designation "disorder", this annoys me too. It seems that there is more "disorder" amongst n.t.s in the form of mental illnesses and these things are considered a "normal" part of being human. So why single out those on the spectrum as "disordered"

 

[Judge]

Why do we say that ASD is a disorder and NT is not a disorder?

The short answer? "We" don't have any say over such protocols. They're entirely controlled by NT medical professionals from the DSM-V.

Yet the same body of medical professionals don't seem to have any terms I'm aware of that directly address Neurotypicals with various mental disorders themselves in quite the same manner and in multiple levels of deficiencies.

So at times I wonder if we should begin referring to those in charge as something less than "medical professionals". One thing that does come to mind would be "pervasive neurological prejudice". An unnecessary and unhelpful continuation of demonizing autism.

In essence that many of us may be "different", but not necessarily "deficient". Being unfairly judged and marginalized socially more than neurologically speaking. Or what philosopher Alexis de Toqueville would have likely considered as a form of "a tyranny of a majority".

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

I, like some here, look at the whole picture, work back through the events I see that need to be accomplished and define the specific deliverables. So much depends on the culture I am working in and the functions involved. Some, like in Costa Rica are more procedure oriented to get to completion, while some, as in America or Croatia are results oriented.

What has allowed me to function in such teams is an ability to focus on deliverables that are required to be completed before other elements of the whole can move forward. That way I can focus as I want but contribute significantly to the effort. Working with engineers this way is easy. It is generally the managers (especially MBAs) who don't know what is going on, but for those who do, I offer significant support.

 

[Tom]

Teaching methods generally are designed for what works with the most students.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Why do we say that ASD is a disorder and NT is not a disorder?
What's so great about NT? I don't get it. Some of the NT people seem disorder to me but apparently the world wants NT people and no ASD people.
Anyway, my thinking is that NT people often focus on the "whole picture". Sometimes that's good but it can also lead to carelessness or not learning something good enough. I don't like group learning with a bunch of NT people as many of them might refuse to learn the fundamentals. NTs skip a lot of the fundamnetal details. They hyperfocus on the "whole picture". They look disodered to me. They say that I am disordered as I cannot skip a lot of the fundamentals when I learn something.
Why are they not disordered?

I don't know much about ASD and NT so please explain this to me.

The term "disorder" is, as others have suggested, is used to describe something that, within the context of psychology, is outside the norm. Having said that, the psychologist that did my diagnosis, used the language, "condition" or ASC,...not ASD. I generally do not get into politically correct language, but I can see where more severe deficits might be more in the "disordered" category, and those with less severe deficits may be more of the "condition" category,...but this whole concept is very nebulous to me.

I have said on these forums that neurotypical behaviors can be, in many ways, disordered. In fact, if you look at the identifying characteristics of someone with autism, one of them being something strict routines, repetitiveness, etc,...and this may be true to some extent with all of us, but it is more individualized. Whereas in neurotypical societies, these things are more large scale,...every law, policy & procedure, guideline, regulation, rule, and cultural norm, is put into place for fear that something "bad" might happen. They also tend to be tribal, fearing people who are different from them. Neurotypical societies, to a large extent, are governed around fear. It is often fear that motivates them to do things. The mainstream and social media platforms amply this effect. The A.I. computers manipulating your news feed,...they are specifically programmed to find things that grab your attention,...and for many neurotypicals, it is something fear based. Fear clouds the brain and overrides logic,...this is why once the brain's fear center has been activated, no amount of fact and logical explanation is going to change their minds. We can talk for days about "disordered" behavior and thinking of so-called neurotypicals. When I was young and inexperienced in the world,...I really just wanted to be normal,...and now,...I would NEVER want to be neurotypical knowing what I know now.

If you are sensing the bullying, the teasing, the sometimes physical violence of a few individuals,...this is fear-based behavior. At some level, I feel a bit of pity for them. They definitely do have a dysfunction in this respect.

As far as seeing the "whole picture" rather than the details,...as a university instructor, I could give you several examples of that NOT being true. Most students have a difficult time seeing the whole picture and may not understand why they are learning what they are learning. The Dunning-Kruger effect is on full display,...as instructors, we have time to give them just enough information that they think they know something,...but not enough for them to know when they are wrong,...and ask questions. The curriculum is not designed for holistic learning. Even when they enter the work force for the first time, they may have their "blinders" on for years before they learn the whole picture, settle in, and become functionally proficient at their job. As an instructor, both neurotypicals and autistics can have their difficulties in the current system for various reasons. However, more to your point,...and I don't know if this has ever been studied in a formal manner,...statistically speaking from 30 years of being an instructor,...most neurotypicals will also have a difficult time with the whole picture, but generally not disrupt the flow of information with persistent questions about the fundamentals and details the way an "typical" autistic student will. Many neurotypicals are perfectly willing to not ask questions and quietly fail to grasp concepts. In fact, to the contrary, it's these seemingly "annoying" and "disruptive" questions from the one or two in a class, that usually identify my autistic students.

 

[Streetwise]

NTs looooovvvvveeeee labels! to manipulate what is different, that's the whole premise of the labels high and low functioning ,strangely !if a NT child, acts in the way a non verbal child, with autistic neurology does, its just a child,God forbid! a child with autistic neurology doesn't mask! ,They'll send for the police and cuff that child ,NT child, they'll phone the parents" oh he's\shes naughty "

 

[Progster]

you skip some of the details. you skip some of the fundamentals but not all. NTs are often very good at this. I suck at it!

It'a a theory of mind issue. They think that you have all that they have in their head. Or some things are assumed, taken as given, so they give you half of the information and leave you to make up the other half. Especially social or cultural stuff. They don't see or even imagine that you might not have all this information. Other people my be good at this, filling in this missing information, but I'm not. I need to have all the pieces, all the facts, to form a complete picture. Often misunderstandings come about because I'm missing some bit of information that they assume I have.

For me, I like to start with the overview because I can see how and why the details fit together better. But if you just hand me an udder, some hoofs and a tail, I struggle with figuring out what animal you are making. But if you say "today we are making a cow" then I can arrange the parts appropriately and will know if details are missing.

My experience with in world has been that most people just hand you a jumble of parts and expect you to just do what you are told without any basis for the "why" of it. And to me, the why or reason for those parts IS the fundamental information that is missing.

I agree with this. When people are explaining or giving intructions, they often tell you what they want you to do, but it's not clear what the end goal is. The end goal is indeed the most important piece of information. Perhaps they just assume that you know it or are able to figure it out from those jumbled pieces of cow.

 

[LadyS]

Disorder:

1. a state of confusion. (yea, I guess we definitely confuse NTs a lot. But hey vice versa as well)
2. disrupt the systematic functioning or neat arrangement of (since NTs are the majority and the current world is modelled for them, we are considered a disruption to that model, and again vice versa)

Being minority stinks but I don't think anything is wrong with us. Because NT people are still learning more about the world of an ND, it may take a while for them to catch up if they keep thinking of it has an incurable disease.

 

[Au Naturel]

Hate disorder word but it is just a word. NTs and NDs have issues. Our issues are just more noticeable and sadly, some of us are more easier to con due to our trusting type nature. But there are NTs who are duped also, there just isn't anybody reporting it.

So to me, it's strength of us to organize and present as one unified body with strategic ways to help us in employment, housing, abusive situations requiring counselling. The things we do wallow around in to some extent. Is this going to happen, probably not. It would be like bipolars getting together and finding unity but they are too busy in their own mind to do so.

We should be in areas that require detail because so many of us are great at that. The stigma of being on the spectrum still seems to exist and that is a great tool used by NT's to keep us powerless and marginalized. I have run into this with my own family and some friends.

There is always a tier of those who control and those who don't. This power balance shifts according to society's slant towards greed and power. Some on the spectrum are in that small elite group. It would be great if those types would contribute more funding and resources and bring our strengths foward to help society.

If you do not t

Why do we say that ASD is a disorder and NT is not a disorder?
What's so great about NT? I don't get it. Some of the NT people seem disorder to me but apparently the world wants NT people and no ASD people.
Anyway, my thinking is that NT people often focus on the "whole picture". Sometimes that's good but it can also lead to carelessness or not learning something good enough. I don't like group learning with a bunch of NT people as many of them might refuse to learn the fundamentals. NTs skip a lot of the fundamnetal details. They hyperfocus on the "whole picture". They look disodered to me. They say that I am disordered as I cannot skip a lot of the fundamentals when I learn something.
Why are they not disordered?

I don't know much about ASD and NT so please explain this to me.

Disorder is as disorder does.

According to the DSM IV and DSM-V, a disorder is a condition that has a profound negative impact on your life in terms of stress or disability. It has to be caused by dysfunction, something not going "right," an issue that a large majority of people do not experience.

Like it or not, how the large majority of people function is the definition of normal. It is the hump of the Bell curve. What is normal for you is an entirely different concept.

The world is designed around the preferences of the "hump." NTs are no more willing to adapt to the needs of people on the spectrum than most people on the spectrum are willing to adapt to the needs of NTs. There's just a LOT more of them, so a tiny minority does what it can to adapt while trying to educate the rest of the population.

The DSM-IV says:

"...each of the mental disorders is conceptualized as a clinically significant behavioral or psychological syndrome or pattern that occurs in an individual and that is associated with present distress (e.g., a painful symptom) or disability (i.e., impairment in one or more important areas of functioning) or with a significantly increased risk of suffering death, pain, disability, or an important loss of freedom. In addition, this syndrome or pattern must not be merely an expectable and culturally sanctioned response to a particular event, for example, the death of a loved one. Whatever its original cause, it must currently be considered a manifestation of a behavioral, psychological, or biological dysfunction in the individual. Neither deviant behavior (e.g., political, religious, or sexual) nor conflicts that are primarily between the individual and society are mental disorders unless the deviance or conflict is a symptom of a dysfunction in the individual, as described above."​

If there is something most people can do that you cannot, that's a disability. The very definition of a disability is inabilty to do something which most people can that seriously impacts life. What is normal v. disabled is a mathematical concept. Often, we say that 2 standard deviations below the mean of ability is a disability - but that varies upon how important the trait is for functionality. If you can correct the problem (like wearing glasses for severe myopia) it ceases to be a disability even though the disorder persists.

So yeah. I have a disability in that I cannot relate socially in the same way most people can. It causes me distress. It has limited my life choices. I cannot function smoothly in society, so it is a social dysfunction I have to compensate for or I'll get nowhere. That which causes a disability is defined as a "disorder" even though relative to myself, I'm running normally.

Getting hung up on labels only makes life more difficult. Using a different word to describe a condition (i.e. "differently abled") changes nothing.

 

[Ken]

I don't like group learning with a bunch of NT people as many of them might refuse to learn the fundamentals. NTs skip a lot of the fundamnetal details. They hyperfocus on the "whole picture". They look disodered to me. They say that I am disordered as I cannot skip a lot of the fundamentals when I learn something.

I'm not sure if this is what is being discussed, but my wife drives me crazy speaking in incomplete sentences. I often have to ask her to please finish a sentence. Otherwise it is all gibberish to me. Even worse she will start a sentence and then change the topic in mid-sentence. Leaves me totally befuddled. I call that low resolution communication.

We have a neighbor that she talks to a lot in the same manner. It "appears" the neighbor gets "the picture", but she never really does. My wife says the neighbor never listens. I think she listens just fine, she is just "polite" in not asking for clarification or at least the rest of the sentence. Both are very NT.

 

[Au Naturel]

I'm not sure if this is what is being discussed, but my wife drives me crazy speaking in incomplete sentences. I often have to ask her to please finish a sentence. Otherwise it is all gibberish to me. Even worse she will start a sentence and then change the topic in mid-sentence. Leaves me totally befuddled. I call that low resolution communication.

We have a neighbor that she talks to a lot in the same manner. It "appears" the neighbor gets "the picture", but she never really does. My wife says the neighbor never listens. I think she listens just fine, she is just "polite" in not asking for clarification or at least the rest of the sentence. Both are very NT.

I'll start to say something, hesitate for second and then complete my thought. My wife hates that in me. She'll jump right in that hesitation as if I'd stopped speaking and turned away. She knows that's how I speak, thinking as I formulate the words, but it is almost reflexive in her.

I suppose I could get my shorts all twisted up and demand that she adapt to my way of speaking. Then she would get all heated up over what she considers my annoyingly slow delivery and insist I change. And that's how Aspies end up hating NTs and NTs decide Aspies are a PITA to deal with. It is what it is and there's no point in getting upset or making demands.

Going from general to specific is the more common method of understanding something. To me, the alternative to not having that broad overview is like wandering through a strange city or an unknown wilderness without a map. You get lost in the bushes. Once you are in the jungle; green, asphalt, or blackboard, you need that overview to figure out how the little parcel you are looking at fits into the grand scheme of things. In the wilderness it is the difference between an enjoyable hike and being paranoid about getting lost.

Or solving a puzzle. You'll get it done with much less effort if you see a picture of what you're assembling before you begin.

If I am in a group, it isn't my place to judge the learning styles of other people. However, I hate groups when it comes to academic projects. Someone always gets lazy and the rest of the group has to carry them. I've been in groups where I was literally the only one who knew the subject matter and a majority of the group didn't even care about the subject matter.

 

[Suzette]

I'm not sure if this is what is being discussed, but my wife drives me crazy speaking in incomplete sentences. I often have to ask her to please finish a sentence. Otherwise it is all gibberish to me. Even worse she will start a sentence and then change the topic in mid-sentence. Leaves me totally befuddled. I call that low resolution communication.

We have a neighbor that she talks to a lot in the same manner. It "appears" the neighbor gets "the picture", but she never really does. My wife says the neighbor never listens. I think she listens just fine, she is just "polite" in not asking for clarification or at least the rest of the sentence. Both are very NT.

Are you married to my mother?

 

[Suzette]

Might be socially stunted, but atleast not mathematically stunted like most of the population .

I think maths is more useful!