Dunning-Kruger and Imposter Syndrome are not opposites

[Nervous Rex]

People who suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect think they're smart or great at something, when they're actually terrible.

People who suffer from Imposter Syndrome think they're not as smart, accomplished, or deserving as their peers.

For some time, I've had a fascination with these two behaviors. I've always viewed them as opposites, and during times of anxiety and insecurity, thought, "Well, maybe I suffer from Imposter Syndrome, but at least that means I don't suffer from Dunning-Kruger effect, and I can improve."

This weekend, as I was thinking about my tendency to invalidate any good feedback I get (because, obviously, they don't know the whole story, and they wouldn't say such good things if they knew as much about me as I knew!), I realized that Dunning-Kruger and Imposter Syndrome both stem from the same problem: An inability to accept and internalize external feedback.

I don't know if this is typical of autism, but it is definitely a very firmly rooted trait in me - I don't get that part of social behavior where I'm supposed to incorporate others' evaluations of me into my own self image.

Another thing that helped me put this together is this article I heard on the radio: How one shady employee can poison the workplace. Apparently, the reflex to internalize social acceptance is so strong that a majority of NTs will adjust their definition of what's right and wrong based on feedback from others. If someone gets away with a bad behavior at work, the reaction isn't to condemn it and make that person change - often the reaction is to accept and adopt it, because someone else says it's okay.

So, you can incorporate absolutely no external input and be left with either Dunning-Kruger or Imposter Syndrome. Or you can incorporate too much external input and have absolutely no internal moral compass.

There has to be a proper balance somewhere between those extremes. I don't know yet how to find that balance. This realization is as far as I've gotten right now, and I'm working on figuring out what to do with it.

 

[LucyPurrs]

Wow, I can relate to this. I always discount positive feedback thinking the person giving it is prejudiced in my favor. And I've been wondering why my positive feedback to a friend has not impacted him- now I understand- some people can't internalize feedback. Thank you for this insight. If you find the answer to the happy balance thing please post it.

 

[Thinx]

Maybe you could be a bit like these syndromes without actually having a syndrome? It could be personality aswell as autistic traits. Yes i agree, taking feedback is confusing and for auts and asps that's maybe worse partly because no one understands autism or Aspergers much. Hence they can't incorporate it into their feedback and the feedback doesn't quite hit the spot?

 

[tducey]

Both sound interesting. To me getting positive feedback is always welcome but I don't like when people go overboard with complementing me.

 

[Katleya]

Sometimes I strongly relate to Imposter's syndrome, other times, not at all. It's tricky to explain, in that I don't usually feel I'm not as smart as my colleagues (factually far from that), but I definitely feel less accomplished, which I have my social difficulties to thank for, because I am, in fact, less accomplished than other people my age with similar education.

I feel I've gotten over my imposter's syndrome for the most part, but that's easy to think when I'm not in a place where I could feel like an imposter, since I'm not currently holding a job. That being said, what triggered the feelings that I wasn't in my place was realizing how much I struggled with completing my tasks, and the time it would take me to do so. These could easily be explained by my poor executive functions, which is why I've been working on improving those. But it was really a lose-lose situation: either I struggled with my task, but succeeded, and ultimately felt like an imposter for making it look like I had my stuff together, or I struggled with the task, didn't complete it as I was expected to, and then I would be thought of as not capable, hence an imposter from an outsider's perspective.

That being said, I'd never factored in that maybe I wasn't taking positive feedback into account to the same extent that I might take negative feedback. I really like how you're linking this incomplete processing of feedback to a possible cause of either syndromes, thank you for this thread.

 

[Nervous Rex]

Maybe you could be a bit like these syndromes without actually having a syndrome? It could be personality aswell as autistic traits. Yes i agree, taking feedback is confusing and for auts and asps that's maybe worse partly because no one understands autism or Aspergers much. Hence they can't incorporate it into their feedback and the feedback doesn't quite hit the spot?

I think you're right. One can have tendencies toward a behavior without having the full-blown syndrome.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

I think you're right. One can have tendencies toward a behavior without having the full-blown syndrome.

I would mix in a sprinkle of cyclothmia, just for fun.

Almost like not having a consistent personality, identifying with one thing...
Then shortly after identifying with another.

I also think of personality development in the early years.

In terms of aspergers,perhaps, part of you is almost born as an adult
The other part,as a child, but without that social learning develops differently.

This weekend, as I was thinking about my tendency to invalidate any good feedback I get (because, obviously, they don't know the whole story, and they wouldn't say such good things if they knew as much about me as I knew!), I realized that Dunning-Kruger and Imposter Syndrome both stem from the same problem: An inability to accept and internalize external feedback.

From your bold type - any response is therefore invalid.

But I think it can be a central development across the spectrum. We can be self-centric but we can learn.
That involves pain and acceptance of mistakes.
Personality theory is a good place to try and fill in these gaps.

I think you're completely wrong.

Now ,how did you feel when you read that sentence, or when someone says that generally?

 

[Thinx]

I wish we could get to the point where we could just rethink psychology as not being all about how NTs are, and write the book of asp and aut psychology in positive terms and not as malfunctions of neurotypicality. We have plenty of positive strengths and aspects and the world needs us. Bet we can do more than anyone has dreamed.

 

[Nervous Rex]

We have plenty of positive strengths and aspects and the world needs us. Bet we can do more than anyone has dreamed.

I was thinking about that in terms of the social mimicry that is so prevalent in NTs and at least somewhat lacking in NDs. Social mimicry leads one to do things the way they see others do them - the way things have always been done. Those who don't mimic find other ways of doing things - and sometimes those ways are better. How much progress in our world can be attributed to this?

 

[Nervous Rex]

I would mix in a sprinkle of cyclothmia, just for fun.

Where's the "thanks for teaching me a new word" emoji? Cyclothmia reminds me that I once heard a recovering alcoholic describe himself as "an egomaniac with an inferiority complex." I totally get that - it seems like I live in the extremes, and finding the balance is hard.

I think you're completely wrong.

Now, how did you feel when you read that sentence, or when someone says that generally?

Depends on the topic. If it's math, I'll go toe-to-toe with anyone because I know when I'm right. If it's politics, I'll say whatever ends the conversation the quickest - usually that means agreeing with them. Anything else, I'll want you to tell me why I'm wrong, but I might believe you even if you don't.

 

[LucyPurrs]

Below has always been my understanding of cyclothymia:

cy·clo·thy·mi·aˌ
noun: cyclothymia
Definition. Cyclothymic disorder, a mild form of bipolar disorder, is characterized by chronic, fluctuating mood swings—from symptoms of depression to symptoms of hypomania. These symptoms are not sufficient in number, severity, or duration to meet the full criteria for a manic or depressive episode.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

Below has always been my understanding of cyclothymia:

cy·clo·thy·mi·aˌ
noun: cyclothymia
Definition. Cyclothymic disorder, a mild form of bipolar disorder, is characterized by chronic, fluctuating mood swings—from symptoms of depression to symptoms of hypomania. These symptoms are not sufficient in number, severity, or duration to meet the full criteria for a manic or depressive episode.

In terms of an undeveloped personality, (deveolped in a diifferent way to normal)not cohesive, I was kind of using the word to rhyme with my meaning.
So not having strong identification with you are means you could be bouncing around like a flibbertigibbet when asked to make some sort of sense.

It's also different to separate what is you versus what is attributed to you and you internalise.

Imagine 2 year old in a pushchair.
Adults talk a cdrtaim way, elevated happy voice 'isnt he a good boy'
Enthusiasm,happy internalised and becomes part of the young ones personality.

Imagine aspergers -happy voice
Kid thinks - why are they patronising me?
Hence unusual development, and unusual internal self develops.

 

[LucyPurrs]

N.Rex said: " An inability to accept and internalize external feedback.
I don't know if this is typical of autism, but it is definitely a very firmly rooted trait in me - I don't get that part of social behavior where I'm supposed to incorporate others' evaluations of me into my own self image."

Well, if you consider that people with autism are not going to get feedback based on an understanding of their differences, this further mucks things up, further leading to "unusual development" as Fridge describes. And if there's an inability to accept and internalize any feedback how does this affect childhood development? Does it benefit someone with ASD not to accept external feedback if that feedback is based on fundamental misunderstanding of the condition?

(This is hurting my head, LOL)

 

[Aeolienne]

But what if you genuinely *have* underachieved? If I state that I have been dismissed on performance grounds three times, have never risen above an entry-level position and now earn less than what my mother did over 20 years ago (all of which are objectively verifiable facts) am I displaying impostor syndrome?

 

[Tom]

...means you could be bouncing around like a flibbertigibbet when asked to make some sort of sense...

Italics mine all mine. Never heard that word before so went off in search of the Flibbertigibbet and found it meant 'Chatterbox' more or less.

My favorite Flibberigibbet image.

This was posted by a lady Flickr photographer and titled Flibbertigibbet (italics still mine) likely as a put down to the girl pictured. But the responses are all like 'what a pretty girl' and 'what a lovely smile' or 'outfit', 'what a natural photo' etc. I'd say that backfired.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

Italics mine all mine. Never heard that word before so went off in search of the Flibbertigibbet and found it meant 'Chatterbox' more or less.

My favorite Flibberigibbet image.
View attachment 45099
This was posted by a lady Flickr photographer and titled Flibbertigibbet (italics still mine) likely as a put down to the girl pictured. But the responses are all like 'what a pretty girl' and 'what a lovely smile' or 'outfit', 'what a natural photo' etc. I'd say that backfired.

Also someone who's a bit stupid.

 

[Tom]

Dunning and Kruger obviously have the Imposter Syndrome.