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Empathy and Autism vs. Aspergers

Varzar

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
So, in Hans Asperger's original study of the group of young boys, he identified them all as "lacking in empathy". He originally referred to the condition as autistic psychopathy (before they decided Asperger's sounded nicer), the psychopathy part presumably referring to that lack of normal emotional content..

In this thread: Is Autism A Combination Of Conditions/Traits???
A definition of Autism was posted that doesn't at all include a lack of empathy with the exception of maybe this part, "reduced sharing of interests or emotions".

And in the thread "Higher Empathy towards animals": Higher empathy for animals?
The overwhelming majority seem to feel more towards animals than I guess people, or plants. ;)

So.. My questions...
Is lack of empathy something that differentiates Autism and Asperger's?
Do people who identify as Aspergers here all have limited/no empathy?
Do people who identify as Autistic here have empathy across the board? Or is it mixed levels of empathy?

Maybe I should just ask this way (if people feel like sharing):
1) Do you identify more as Aspergers or Autistic?
2) On a scale of 1-10, how empathetic do you think you are (in your head, not with whatever mask you might use to get by in the world)?

For myself, Aspergers and probably 1 or 2 out of 10.
 
Empathy gets discussed a lot in this forum, spanning over many different threads and posts.

For me, the most critical issue over this question is a misconception of many Neurotypicals. That it isn't that we necessarily lack empathy outright, but rather that as autistic people we don't project and communicate it in an overt and meaningful way in which NTs are accustomed to.

Conversely we probably are more apt to be directly empathetic towards animals, without any fear that our sentiments will be misinterpreted.
 
That it isn't that we necessarily lack empathy outright, but rather that as autistic people we don't project and communicate it in an overt and meaningful way in which NTs are accustomed to

That's it.

Lack of socially expected conversation translated as lack of empathy as a result.
 
That's it.

Lack of socially expected conversation translated as lack of empathy as a result.

Ok, so maybe it's just me then... I quite literally don't empathize with most things other people do.. Or if I do, it's at a VERY low level.. Any outward "empathizing" I do is part of masks I've built since I was a teenager..

I remember a notable incident when I was a teenager and hadn't developed my masking much yet.. Princess Diana died in a car crash. My parent's were watching TV and were very upset about the news.. I walked in, they told me what happened, and my response was along the lines of, "So? It's not like you knew her. She's just another person, and people die in car crashes all the time. You don't get upset about the other people..."
It didn't go over so well, as I'm sure you can imagine..
 
Ok, so maybe it's just me then... I quite literally don't empathize with most things other people do.. Or if I do, it's at a VERY low level.. Any outward "empathizing" I do is part of masks I've built since I was a teenager..

I remember a notable incident when I was a teenager and hadn't developed my masking much yet.. Princess Diana died in a car crash. My parent's were watching TV and were very upset about the news.. I walked in, they told me what happened, and my response was along the lines of, "So? It's not like you knew her. She's just another person, and people die in car crashes all the time. You don't get upset about the other people..."
It didn't go over so well, as I'm sure you can imagine..

That said. I had a very similar reaction to that event.
And have said the same thing many times.

Not sure it disproved empathy though.
Just highlights hypocrisy :)
 
Ok, so maybe it's just me then... I quite literally don't empathize with most things other people do..

It's entirely possible for some. Just another example of how autism is manifested on a spectrum of traits, behaviors and their respective amplitudes. One thing for sure, we on the spectrum are not in lockstep about much of anything. A consideration that sometimes eludes the mindsets of non-autistic people.

Or as we like to quote here, "If you've seen one Aspie, you've seen one Aspie". ;)

Or perhaps you simply don't relate to celebrities- or royals. Just because someone attains a sense of notoriety for whatever reason doesn't necessarily dictate an elevated sense of concern or respect either. IMO empathy can be expressed in degrees and circumstances...not always requiring a conditional response. Frankly I'd be a tad suspicious of much of anyone who demanded empathy to anyone and everyone. Where that specter of hypocrisy is likely to rear its ugly head.

I just see empathy as something more often than not judged by how it is perceived rather than if it actually exists. Which for people on the spectrum more often than not remains an "uphill battle".
 
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@Judge - I guess I was going more with the dictionary definition of empathy: "the ability to understand and share the feelings of another."
I feel like you are more describing perception of empathy. Which I also agree with.. Even if I happen to actually empathize with someone about something, I still wouldn't convey it the way an NT would.

Take another example that's closer to home.. My neighbours, I am very close with (they actually asked me if I was autistic long before I realized I was.. I denied it at the time). Last year, they had 3 horses die from infections. Naturally, they were distraught, their kids were distraught.. I guess I understand why they were upset, but I don't share their feelings. The horses dying doesn't make me upset. The kids' mom was lamenting to me about how terrible it was, especially for the kids as these horses were part of their project for a youth development club.. As she's telling me this, all I could think was that it would suck when the kids had to present their projects, "My horse died...".. Next kid: "So did mine". Thinking this made me want to laugh, which fortunately I have better control over now.. :P

@Fridgemagnetman - Lol, it does highlight hypocrisy too doesn't it. :D
 
I think it comes and goes - this empathy thing, l can be super empathic or zero empathy. Maybe we have better control on if we feel or don't feel which puts us in the subhuman area. The best CEO's are the ones that are sociopaths because they can fire or shut down a entire division with little feeling.

If l don't respond correctly to a situation , l am judged by others, but we on the spectrum don't judge others by their responses. It seems lopsided criticism.
 
“Empathy” is a very misunderstood term, especially when it comes to autism. People think it’s synonymous with compassion, but it isn’t. There are two kinds of empathy: cognitive and affective. Compassion is sometimes considered to be a third type.

I posted a thread on this topic back in October, and I’m going to copy/paste part of it here for you to read.

(Excerpt from Autistic people & empathy: what’s the real story? )

Affective Empathy

This is an unconscious, automatic response allowing you to feel what other people (and other living beings) are feeling, and is absolutely not something autistic people lack.

For example, it’s very common to find people on the spectrum who feel intensely connected to all species of animals, birds, insects etc. and the bonds they form – with creatures who live free from the endless restrictions of human social rules – can be quite extraordinary.

In the case of affective empathy, rather than having too little, autistic people can often have way too much – a condition known as ‘hyper-empathy.’

Hyper-empathic people find that even the thought of anyone or anything suffering causes them intense emotional, psychological and often physical pain. They can be highly sensitive to any changes in atmospheres, picking up on the slightest tension between people, and becoming more and more upset as they anticipate things escalating.

Since processing these powerful feelings can be really hard for them, they’ll often withdraw or go into meltdown over something that’s perfectly valid to them, yet a complete mystery to those around them.

Another way this shows itself is in the extreme personification of objects: forming deep emotional bonds with everyday items like pencils or rubber bands.

There are many examples of personification in the language we use every day (time waits for no-one/the camera loves her etc.) and also in our culture, with films such as Beauty and the Beast being very much enhanced by its singing, dancing, emoting kitchenware, but what I’m describing here is something much more overwhelming. Autistic people can become extremely upset if they feel, for example, that a specific crayon or hairbrush isn’t being used as often as the others, because it might be feeling left out. I can imagine how that sounds to anyone who’s unfamiliar with autism, but believe me, to many, many autistic people, this really does make perfect sense.

Cognitive Empathy

This is the largely conscious ability to work out what other people are thinking or feeling, and because human beings are so endlessly complex, if you’re not naturally wired to understand the process, it can be really, really difficult to learn. Cognitive empathy is an intricate thought process allowing you to grasp what people really mean when they say something vague, or which emotions they’re feeling when they behave in a way you find confusing. It’s something most neurotypical people pick up very quickly, and most autistic people have to work really hard at.

Anyone who lives with autism (whether they’re autistic themselves or are in close contact with an autistic person) will recognise how difficult it can be for people on the spectrum to guess other people’s behaviours and intentions without very precise instructions. In other words, it really helps to say exactly what you mean when you talk to autistic people, because they just don’t get the concept of ‘implied.’

A perfect example of this happened in here recently, when my youngest son’s girlfriend told him ‘I’ve just left work; meet me at the end of the road.’ Now, it was clearly implied that since she’d just stepped out of the office, she wanted to meet him at the end of the road she works on, but since Aidan doesn’t do ‘implied,’ there she stood, more than twenty minutes later, still waiting for him to arrive.

Aidan, meanwhile, was waiting at the end of the road where she lives, which seemed to him to be the most logical road to meet on, since they’d met there several times before. Not specifying a particular road when talking to an autistic person is what we call in here a ‘rookie mistake!’

There are a couple of terms relating to this that you’ve probably come across if you’re part of the autism community: The ability to consciously recognise what other people are thinking and feeling is known as ‘the Theory of Mind’ (usually abbreviated to ToM); while being unable to do this is known as ‘Mind-blindness’. Mind-blindness is one of the most common traits a health professional will look for during an autism diagnosis, and its effects very much work both ways.

Autistic people will often assume everyone has the same views and understanding of the world as they do, as well as the same passions and interests. I’m sure many of you are familiar with the seemingly endless discussions about special interests which are a direct result of this trait.

They’ll also believe that if they’re aware of something, other people must be too, and this can lead to all kinds of problems. When my son Dominic was young he almost died of acute double pneumonia because he didn’t tell us he was in agonising pain whenever he coughed. Devastated, I asked him why he hadn’t mentioned it to me, and he said simply ‘I thought you knew.’

Compassionate Empathy

This is both the understanding of another being’s situation, and the motivation to help them if they’re in some sort of trouble. Once again, autistic people have no shortage of this kind of empathy, even though they can sometimes struggle when it comes to offering the right kind of help.

Many people on the spectrum are hugely motivated when standing up against what they consider to be injustice, and you’ll find some of the most passionate voices in the struggle for equality, animal rights and a cleaner environment are the autistic ones.

Autistic people see far less boundaries than neurotypical people do, which is a really positive trait when it’s applied to finding new solutions to seemingly unsolvable problems. Conversely there are many challenges for autistic people to master when it comes to giving and receiving emotional support, as they tend to struggle quite a lot with social boundaries.

Autistic people often don’t like to hug, or they hug too tightly, which is a natural way for neurotypical people to show empathy towards each other, and this definitely adds to the misconception that they’re unfeeling and lack the capacity to love. Putting your arm around someone’s shoulder or your hand on their arm when they’re sad are both automatic gestures for neurotypical people to make, but can be incredibly confusing for autistic people who have difficulty picking up social cues about how much physical contact is appropriate in each particular situation.

When you’re autistic, joyous occasions such as birthday parties and weddings can be just as difficult to navigate as the more emotionally draining events like funerals. Understanding why it’s important to ‘say the right thing at the right time’ can be very confusing, leading to all sorts of mix-ups, but autistic people really do care, and are genuinely trying their best to be supportive, even when they get things wrong.
 
@JudgeLast year, they had 3 horses die from infections. Naturally, they were distraught, their kids were distraught.. I guess I understand why they were upset, but I don't share their feelings. The horses dying doesn't make me upset. The kids' mom was lamenting to me about how terrible it was, especially for the kids as these horses were part of their project for a youth development club.. As she's telling me this, all I could think was that it would suck when the kids had to present their projects, "My horse died...".. Next kid: "So did mine". Thinking this made me want to laugh, which fortunately I have better control over now.. :p

@Fridgemagnetman - Lol, it does highlight hypocrisy too doesn't it. :D

Laughing at someone else’s loss and pain isn’t an autistic trait.
 
Thanks for pasting that here too @Kalinychta! Very helpful I think to break up types of empathy that way.. I do have the cognitive and compassionate empathies, including the struggles they list that go along with each..
What I don't have much at all is Affective Empathy. If anything, as far as affective empathy goes, I'd be hypo-empathetic.

On laughing... I wasn't laughing at their loss and pain, but the unrealistic hypothetical scenario running through my head was funny. From biographies I've read from others with Aspergers/Autism that have been in similar situations, I gather this falls under the "Inappropriate laughing or giggling" type of symptom listed as part of autism here: Autism Symptoms
 
Now googling "lack of affective empathy", and came across this study: Affective and cognitive empathy in adolescents with autism spectrum disorder
"Our data show that adolescents with ASD have a deficit in the cognitive empathy dimension, but do not differ from controls in the affective empathy dimension when other people express emotions with positive valence. Their difficulty in empathizing with the emotional experience of other people is linked to sharing of emotions with negative valence."

Perhaps I fit in there.. If it's negative, I can't empathize affectively? I will have to pay attention if I feel other peoples' positive emotions (don't normally pay attention to that so much, as that situation isn't where I get in trouble)
 
I remember a notable incident when I was a teenager and hadn't developed my masking much yet.. Princess Diana died in a car crash. My parent's were watching TV and were very upset about the news.. I walked in, they told me what happened, and my response was along the lines of, "So? It's not like you knew her. She's just another person, and people die in car crashes all the time. You don't get upset about the other people..."
It didn't go over so well, as I'm sure you can imagine..

I get this. My Mum always says she doesn't understand how I "could be so cold"...but if I didn't know them, why would it upset me? It's sad for their family, I get that...but not for me.
 
I think a lot of what passes for empathy in the neurotypical world is in fact conformity to norms. Our tendency to be oblivious to norms can make us seem to lack empathy, we say things that sound cold harsh or overly rationalised to NTs where we are just speaking our truth, being simple and direct.

In my experience genuine concern for others that is demonstrated through effective actions is not as common as the ability to give the appearance of caring or concern.
 
Ok, so maybe it's just me then... I quite literally don't empathize with most things other people do.. Or if I do, it's at a VERY low level.. Any outward "empathizing" I do is part of masks I've built since I was a teenager..

I remember a notable incident when I was a teenager and hadn't developed my masking much yet.. Princess Diana died in a car crash. My parent's were watching TV and were very upset about the news.. I walked in, they told me what happened, and my response was along the lines of, "So? It's not like you knew her. She's just another person, and people die in car crashes all the time. You don't get upset about the other people..."
It didn't go over so well, as I'm sure you can imagine..

This is sort of like me. For me to feel empathy strongly there has to be loyalty, trust and close friendship. Even if I know someone I do not feel empathy unless there is a close relationship.
 
Princess Diana died in a car crash.

Or perhaps you simply don't relate to celebrities- or royals.

There is a certain hypocrisy where people demand that you feel for strangers the way you feel for people you know.

The horses dying doesn't make me upset

It's the other way around with me. Whenever someone I don't know and don't care about posts in a group on social that their fur baby went to the rainbow bridge (a term for pet Heaven), I almost start crying. It has nothing to do with the bereaved pet owners, I just find it sad that pets die.

More generally: I cannot imagine I was the only autistic child who got punished for expressing empathy. I get now that NTs don't actually want sympathy from someone they perceive to be beneath them – it's always some status thing, isn't it – but it discourages shows of empathy, and it's hypocritical for them to complain now about what they shaped our interaction styles into.
 
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The one oh-so-important thing missing from this thread is alexithymia. It's top of the list when discussing autistic empathy.
Half of us on the spectrum are alexithymic meaning we can be slow to process emotions. They can take hours, days or weeks to express themselves, occasionally even longer, sometimes manifesting in meltdowns or shutdowns. Empathy of all types is externally measured by immediate emotional response, but if that response is muted or delayed by alexithymia we are judged by default to be lacking.
It has it's advantages for communal living. Someone who responds calmly to emotional crises can "keep their head when all about are losing theirs" which can be the difference between life and death in some circumstances. The downside is that we may need consolation at a later date when it may be unclear what the source of our distress or remorse might be.
As a personal example - many of my friends and associates were in despair or panic last Friday, with some talking of suicide. I was aware of the emotional charge but it was formless and in the background - I was numbed to it all and was more of an observer than a participant. It allowed me to objectively do my part to "talk them down" and to convey a message of hope that was desperately needed by some.
The downside to that situation is that my own emotions will hit me later - they haven't yet. It may be that they mount up when I'm upset about something else and I may appear to "over-react" to a particular situation, maybe even a meltdown/shutdown.On the other hand it could be they manifest at a time I'm calm or happy and feeling safe, making my emotional state at that time seem "inappropriate".
It all adds to the impression that I am "lacking empathy" yet the opposite is true. My affective empathy is present and highly sensitive but takes time to work it's way through my system. My cognitive empathy (Theory of Mind) is channelled into practical, thoughtful response rather than being driven by (possibly irrational) emotions.
With all this in mind, consider that whilst half of autistics are alexithymic, so are a tenth of non-autistic people. Alexithymia is not a deficit, nor a disorder. It is a personality trait, but it is one which is frequently misrepresented, just like autism itself.

I go into some detail on this and other aspects of autistic empathy in the 3 videos I did on the topic last year. I have another in the works specifically about alexithymia.
 
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So, in Hans Asperger's original study of the group of young boys, he identified them all as "lacking in empathy". He originally referred to the condition as autistic psychopathy (before they decided Asperger's sounded nicer), the psychopathy part presumably referring to that lack of normal emotional content..

In this thread: Is Autism A Combination Of Conditions/Traits???
A definition of Autism was posted that doesn't at all include a lack of empathy with the exception of maybe this part, "reduced sharing of interests or emotions".

And in the thread "Higher Empathy towards animals": Higher empathy for animals?
The overwhelming majority seem to feel more towards animals than I guess people, or plants. ;)

So.. My questions...
Is lack of empathy something that differentiates Autism and Asperger's?
Do people who identify as Aspergers here all have limited/no empathy?
Do people who identify as Autistic here have empathy across the board? Or is it mixed levels of empathy?

Maybe I should just ask this way (if people feel like sharing):
1) Do you identify more as Aspergers or Autistic?
2) On a scale of 1-10, how empathetic do you think you are (in your head, not with whatever mask you might use to get by in the world)?

For myself, Aspergers and probably 1 or 2 out of 10.

Interesting.
Many people in this forum discussed about empathy in autistic or asperger people.
I think what people here in this forum meant by empathy, and what other people (NTs?) think about it, is different. Misunderstanding in definitions.
I think many people here maybe did not try the Empathy Quotient. Try with all honesty, dont try to fake it.

Another thing, sometimes i feel that combining aspies into autism spectrum caused difficulties/confusion in discussing intervention methods, coping skills, etc. Aspies can manage better than low functioning autistic people. I did a mistake too in answering one of the thread here - I thought since my aspie husband can deal with the problem, i thought other autistic people can too. People always said that if you meet one aspie/autism people, you only met one. But there's a gap between how to help an aspie and an (low functioning?) autistic person.
 
My empathy is erratic. It is built largly on a rational ethic of how I see the world and right and wrong. If someone is a victim I can relate to that and have empathy as I know how that feels. If someone breaks my code I don't really have empathy for that (and sometimes I can misunderstand what has happened). I have empathy for objects - ie I feel terribly guilty when I get a new phone that the old one feels sad (!).

I don't have empathy in films unless it is relating to animals. I can though if I am really into it - ie Superman..Smallville is currently taking me on an emotional rollercoaster! I dont normally experience that.
 

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