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Empathy, Intuitive Conformance, and Socialization Motivation on the Spectrum.

darangal

Member
The topics of empathy, the instinct to conform in society, and the motivation to engage in social activity are the three aspects of functioning in social setting and connecting with other people on a fundamental level that challenge me the most personally. I also attribute these three aspects to autism.

My intention with this thread is to find common ground with others. Develop a better understanding of how to improve in awareness of these topics, and engage in a discussion geared toward connecting with people more effectively and on deeper levels.
Another somewhat related topic which I won't divulge into here is difficulty socializing in groups. One on one conversations are much easier to understand, engage in, and develop proficiency with.

Empathy is the ability to put yourself in the shoes of another emotionally. This does not require shared experience, it does however help a lot to have shared experience to ground the exercise of empathy. Empathy may be much harder for anyone on the spectrum due to a lack of mirror neurons compared to neurotypicals. I find that much like physical exercise, practice makes it easier to perform the activity more skillfully and with greater strength and stamina. Having said that I still find difficulty when attempting to reflexively employ empathy. This occurs more often in contexts with which I am entirely unfamiliar, rusty, or speaking with people I do not have a good amount of rapport with or possess a strong interest in their wellbeing or their opinions in general.

Intuitive conformance is more of a grey area. As members of society people feel a compulsion to follow rules, some spoken or outlined in law, many others are "known" and can be difficult to navigate especially when one has not been indoctrinated. I find that many of the unspoken social rules are cultural, area specific (area can vary from town, county, to a state or a country), and in many cases subcultural. There are a lot of subculture niches that are unique to social groups ranging from a few people, a dozen, a hundred, or several thousand. The interplay of these unspoken rules is simply fascinating. Navigating these rules can be very intimidating and an enormous source of social anxiety. I don't think this anxiety is isolated to anyone on the spectrum and is very often a cause of stress relieving habits at parties such as drug use and drinking.

Social motivation is really my biggest problem. I don't know where it comes from but I have a tendency to not want to talk or significantly engage with other people in most situations. I have a very work or production oriented attitude and found socialization in school very surprising in a classroom setting. I found similar problems early in my professional career as there was a surplus of bullshittery around the workplace ranging from grunts to top level managers. I got used to it eventually. I still have challenges being motivated to engage socially with other people. I find this lack of motivation particularly hampering because I want to be sincere and authentic in all my interactions, this quality of sincerity is also extremely likeable and produces an instinctive trust response in other people. I have been working towards changing my mindset, emotional responses to stimuli ranging from visual, auditory, and smell to more complex symbols such as political references, pop culture, aphorisms, and ubiquitous small talk (I like to shout out platitudes in response to small talk, there's still boring but slightly more intellectually and emotionally stimulating with the potential to spark deeper conversations).

These three things play a big part in my satisfaction with and engagement in society. I'd like to read your thoughts and experiences with them and any insight you can offer.
 
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I am still stuck on your title of this post. Is this a thesis paper? :)
It can be. I don't want to do the research at the moment.

I absolutely love writing. I reaaaaaally do, and I have a lot of interest on the topic of social dynamics because I get a ton of social anxiety.

PS - I take any opportunity to exercise my brain in areas I am passionate about, I don't get to do it a lot and this makes me happy!
 
I can't agree with you on the empathy thing, although it depends on how you define empathy.
Empathy doesn't mean "ability to put oneself into everyone's shoes except autistic people", as empathy has more grey areas than that. Often NTs don't understand other NTs who don't have the same feelings, opinions or experiences. Other neurological disorders besides autism often gets misunderstood by people in general. Even things like OCD or depression gets misunderstood by people who don't suffer with those conditions.
 
The topics of empathy, the instinct to conform in society, and the motivation to engage in social activity are the three aspects of functioning in social setting and connecting with other people on a fundamental level that challenge me the most personally. I also attribute these three aspects to autism.

My intention with this thread is to find common ground with others. Develop a better understanding of how to improve in awareness of these topics, and engage in a discussion geared toward connecting with people more effectively and on deeper levels.
Another somewhat related topic which I won't divulge into here is difficulty socializing in groups. One on one conversations are much easier to understand, engage in, and develop proficiency with.

Empathy is the ability to put yourself in the shoes of another emotionally. This does not require shared experience, it does however help a lot to have shared experience to ground the exercise of empathy. Empathy may be much harder for anyone on the spectrum due to a lack of mirror neurons compared to neurotypicals. I find that much like physical exercise, practice makes it easier to perform the activity more skillfully and with greater strength and stamina. Having said that I still find difficulty when attempting to reflexively employ empathy. This occurs more often in contexts with which I am entirely unfamiliar, rusty, or speaking with people I do not have a good amount of rapport with or possess a strong interest in their wellbeing or their opinions in general.

Intuitive conformance is more of a grey area. As members of society people feel a compulsion to follow rules, some spoken or outlined in law, many others are "known" and can be difficult to navigate especially when one has not been indoctrinated. I find that many of the unspoken social rules are cultural, area specific (area can vary from town, county, to a state or a country), and in many cases subcultural. There are a lot of subculture niches that are unique to social groups ranging from a few people, a dozen, a hundred, or several thousand. The interplay of these unspoken rules is simply fascinating. Navigating these rules can be very intimidating and an enormous source of social anxiety. I don't think this anxiety is isolated to anyone on the spectrum and is very often a cause of stress relieving habits at parties such as drug use and drinking.

Social motivation is really my biggest problem. I don't know where it comes from but I have a tendency to not want to talk or significantly engage with other people in most situations. I have a very work or production oriented attitude and found socialization in school very surprising in a classroom setting. I found similar problems early in my professional career as there was a surplus of bullshittery around the workplace ranging from grunts to top level managers. I got used to it eventually. I still have challenges being motivated to engage socially with other people. I find this lack of motivation particularly hampering because I want to be sincere and authentic in all my interactions, this quality of sincerity is also extremely likeable and produces an instinctive trust response in other people. I have been working towards changing my mindset, emotional responses to stimuli ranging from visual, auditory, and smell to more complex symbols such as political references, pop culture, aphorisms, and ubiquitous small talk (I like to shout out platitudes in response to small talk, there's still boring but slightly more intellectually and emotionally stimulating with the potential to spark deeper conversations).

These three things play a big part in my satisfaction with and engagement in society. I'd like to read your thoughts and experiences with them and any insight you can offer.
This is one of many studies on these topics, more specifically low oxytocin and vasopressin, the "love hormones" partly responsible for social bonding, social decision making, empathy, etc. It would appear that many autism variants have altered communication between the hypothalamus and the posterior pituitary, resulting in low levels of these two hormones. There have been several studies on the effects of intra-nasal oxytocin, and it does have significant positive effects, however, because of its short half-life in the body, other methods may need to be used, such as subcutaneous, slow-release hormone pellets.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9813388/
 
I can't agree with you on the empathy thing, although it depends on how you define empathy.
Empathy doesn't mean "ability to put oneself into everyone's shoes except autistic people", as empathy has more grey areas than that. Often NTs don't understand other NTs who don't have the same feelings, opinions or experiences. Other neurological disorders besides autism often gets misunderstood by people in general. Even things like OCD or depression gets misunderstood by people who don't suffer with those conditions.
Empathy is emotional connection through the exercise of imagining the perspective of the other person. This act does not discriminate between people or animals.
What I was saying in the OP is that autism can play a detrimental role in one's aptitude for empathizing period, I believe is does for me. I doesn't stop me from caring about others but it can make it a lot harder to understand how they're feeling and to connect on an emotional level.
This is my experience and I do not claim to be an expert on the subject of empathy or how it relates to autism.
 
My oxytocin levels must have hooorrrribble when I was a kiddo. I got around that by being a bit of a sex addict for a while (my 16th year), and then getting pregnant at 17 ( and again at 19, 21, 22, 25, 28, and 31) and singing A LOT. Did you know oxytocin is released when we sing?
In case you are wondering all my kids have the same father.
I do have a weird kind of empathy" though. I am, pretty horribly, for the most part, overly sensitive to other people's "energy" "vibe" whatever you want to call it
I think it's another reason I had so many children. Babies and little kid's have such clean, innocent, pure energy.
And their needs are so straight forward when they are little. Of course, complications arise when they get older.
The difficult thing about my kind of empathy is that knowing myself as separate to others around me until I have learnt in mid life to cognitively understand what is "mine" as opposed to other's
 
I guess everyone's experience with autism is different but the "autistics lack empathy" thing has been debunked. If you're autistic and you lack empathy it might just be your personality. Also we all have more empathy levels on some things than other things, even NTs do.

If NTs had the ability to put themselves in other's shoes this would be an ideal world. Lol.
 
My oxytocin levels must have hooorrrribble when I was a kiddo. I got around that by being a bit of a sex addict for a while (my 16th year), and then getting pregnant at 17 ( and again at 19, 21, 22, 25, 28, and 31) and singing A LOT. Did you know oxytocin is released when we sing?
In case you are wondering all my kids have the same father.
I do have a weird kind of empathy" though. I am, pretty horribly, for the most part, overly sensitive to other people's "energy" "vibe" whatever you want to call it
I think it's another reason I had so many children. Babies and little kid's have such clean, innocent, pure energy.
And their needs are so straight forward when they are little. Of course, complications arise when they get older.
The difficult thing about my kind of empathy is that knowing myself as separate to others around me until I have learnt in mid life to cognitively understand what is "mine" as opposed to other's
Appreciate your comments on children. While I've always enjoyed children, I found my grandchildren to be great 'therapy' during my lowest times. They are at that 10 and 12yo level now and I am exercised to keep the relationships we developed during those few years intact.

In their home family life, kids are these little blobs which must be tended to. In Grampaland, a real adult listens to them as they retell their favorite books and holds them accountable to reliable standards. Must be working. Recently, DIL told me what the 12yo girl was told by her mother, insisted I tell the same story. Mommy butchered the facts-of-life story, and granddaughter believes menstrual blood drips to the ground and a frog turns it into a baby. (No, I'm not kidding.) I refused to lie to my granddaughter, which is my standard operating procedure, which drove Mommy nuts. I pointed out I didn't need to lie about it because I don't talk to the kids about that stuff. DIL was irate as well, saying I didn't have to bring it up because 'everyone in the family knows' that if granddaughter has a question, Grampa is who she will turn to. Pointing out that this was probably due to my policy of truthtelling didn't endear me to either of the 'responsible adults'.

Trying that truthtelling policy with the adults in your life will likely not result in trusting relationship.

Kids are also waaay more fun than adults. Who wants to sit around in a circle and poke away at a cell phone, when your band of conquerors is being chased into the forest by an all-powerful dragon? If we don't stick together, we'll all be burned to a crisp. My best cardio is when my regulars get together with the less-regular grandkids and they all need to prove that they can get Grampa down and keep him down. They never win. NEVEEER!!! (Wait, wait. Be careful of my glasses.)
 
Appreciate your comments on children. While I've always enjoyed children, I found my grandchildren to be great 'therapy' during my lowest times. They are at that 10 and 12yo level now and I am exercised to keep the relationships we developed during those few years intact.

In their home family life, kids are these little blobs which must be tended to. In Grampaland, a real adult listens to them as they retell their favorite books and holds them accountable to reliable standards. Must be working. Recently, DIL told me what the 12yo girl was told by her mother, insisted I tell the same story. Mommy butchered the facts-of-life story, and granddaughter believes menstrual blood drips to the ground and a frog turns it into a baby. (No, I'm not kidding.) I refused to lie to my granddaughter, which is my standard operating procedure, which drove Mommy nuts. I pointed out I didn't need to lie about it because I don't talk to the kids about that stuff. DIL was irate as well, saying I didn't have to bring it up because 'everyone in the family knows' that if granddaughter has a question, Grampa is who she will turn to. Pointing out that this was probably due to my policy of truthtelling didn't endear me to either of the 'responsible adults'.

Trying that truthtelling policy with the adults in your life will likely not result in trusting relationship.

Kids are also waaay more fun than adults. Who wants to sit around in a circle and poke away at a cell phone, when your band of conquerors is being chased into the forest by an all-powerful dragon? If we don't stick together, we'll all be burned to a crisp. My best cardio is when my regulars get together with the less-regular grandkids and they all need to prove that they can get Grampa down and keep him down. They never win. NEVEEER!!! (Wait, wait. Be careful of my glasses.)
You sound like a loving grandparent. :)
 
I guess everyone's experience with autism is different but the "autistics lack empathy" thing has been debunked. If you're autistic and you lack empathy it might just be your personality. Also we all have more empathy levels on some things than other things, even NTs do.

If NTs had the ability to put themselves in other's shoes this would be an ideal world. Lol.
Can you elaborate?
 
Appreciate your comments on children. While I've always enjoyed children, I found my grandchildren to be great 'therapy' during my lowest times. They are at that 10 and 12yo level now and I am exercised to keep the relationships we developed during those few years intact.

In their home family life, kids are these little blobs which must be tended to. In Grampaland, a real adult listens to them as they retell their favorite books and holds them accountable to reliable standards. Must be working. Recently, DIL told me what the 12yo girl was told by her mother, insisted I tell the same story. Mommy butchered the facts-of-life story, and granddaughter believes menstrual blood drips to the ground and a frog turns it into a baby. (No, I'm not kidding.) I refused to lie to my granddaughter, which is my standard operating procedure, which drove Mommy nuts. I pointed out I didn't need to lie about it because I don't talk to the kids about that stuff. DIL was irate as well, saying I didn't have to bring it up because 'everyone in the family knows' that if granddaughter has a question, Grampa is who she will turn to. Pointing out that this was probably due to my policy of truthtelling didn't endear me to either of the 'responsible adults'.

Trying that truthtelling policy with the adults in your life will likely not result in trusting relationship.

Kids are also waaay more fun than adults. Who wants to sit around in a circle and poke away at a cell phone, when your band of conquerors is being chased into the forest by an all-powerful dragon? If we don't stick together, we'll all be burned to a crisp. My best cardio is when my regulars get together with the less-regular grandkids and they all need to prove that they can get Grampa down and keep him down. They never win. NEVEEER!!! (Wait, wait. Be careful of my glasses.)

The famous french author Victor Hugo wrote that the Grandparent - Grandchild bond was strongest of all, even surpassing parent - child. Now I would guess Hugo was exagerating a little, as in his writing I detect some tendency to be carried away, but found it interesting he would say that.
 
I guess everyone's experience with autism is different but the "autistics lack empathy" thing has been debunked. If you're autistic and you lack empathy it might just be your personality. Also we all have more empathy levels on some things than other things, even NTs do.

If NTs had the ability to put themselves in other's shoes this would be an ideal world. Lol.

It is a kind of empathy this is excruciating, a lot of the time, when other's are suffering, for me.

Little kid's and my guy friend are my remedy for that and even then ...I don't really communicate with my neighbors kid's much at all.

And sometimes, my own children are wonderful remedy and sometimes not

Sometimes they have been the greatest source of excruciation.

I have my youngest baby grandson staying, at the moment; Incredibly adorable baby, objectively, I think. It's soooo fun hanging out with him, just as much fun as granddaughty (she is two, he is six months, they are oldest daughter's and youngest daughter's respectively).

We are having a fine old time, bubba and me. He loves bouncing and being sung too, and making funny noises with our mouths (I even beat box to him) and having his head stroked and ALL the conversations!!!!!
Adorable baby babble, that is oh so communicative.
Big girl (who had a little bit of a hard time dealing with big girl status, when I was over there, the other day) loves the songs me and aunty (my youngest daughter) sing together, to her, and going out into the garden, and where- are-you!!?!-games and being pretend-scary, and sometimes being pretend-scared, but not too scared, and playing with Nana'a (my) pretty rocks and marbles and shells and things, and the playground !!!!

One of the highlights of my entire life was taking her to our excellent playground in town for the first time (I live in a village, but we have a big country town, that calls itself a city 1/2 hour away) for the first time. She skinned her knee running after some ibis' and didn't even have time to be upset because THE PLAYGROUND!!!!

I used to take my kids there when they were little. It even has a train that goes round and round the entire playground with a driver, that you ride on top of (it is a mini train).

Yes, kids are awesome, that's why I had 7 of them and helped out mumming a few other's along the way.
Parenting has been the biggest roller coaster of my life, but grandparenthood, so far, has been, pretty much, utter joy.
To top it all off, my NDy partner is also a kid's person, even more than me. He is adorable to watch with them as well.
 
When I see lacking empathy, I see people dumping pets on the side of the road with no feelings of remorse, or people bullying others just for their own entertainment, that sort of thing. Sometimes people who do those things literally have no understanding of how they're making one feel, and no remorse. Sometimes these people do these things because they're unable to put themselves into another person's (or animal's) shoes. All they're doing is thinking of themselves. And you don't have to be a psychopath or under the influence of drugs or alcohol to do this, and the victim doesn't have to be autistic.

The only lacking empathy I can think of in some Aspies is the "why are you reacting with this emotion? It won't change it" statement, but I've seen NTs use this too. Often when I'm anxious about something people say that, and it really annoys me.

It's like this:-

A is crying at a funeral.
B: Why are you crying? It won't bring them back
A: I know that, but I feel sad
B: But they're gone, deal with it
A: That's not very helpful
B: I'm just being realistic
A: No, you're being insensitive
B: No I'm not. I'm being honest. What's so bad about being honest?
A: Nothing but being honest can have its downsides and sometimes it's better to say nothing
B: Not to me. I'd rather someone tell me the truth
A: OK, I don't like your hairstyle. It looks stupid
B: Hey, that really hurt my feelings!

Empathy teaches us that honesty isn't always appropriate, but some people with more logic than empathy might argue that being honest is a great thing in whatever situation, unless someone is being honest with them by telling them something they don't want to hear. I have seen that sort of attitude among some Aspies, but not all. And I think it's more common in alexithemia (sorry if spelt wrong) than autism.
Autistic people can be very empathetic. And, believe it or not, being too empathetic and selfless can make people feel uneasy or annoyed.
 
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