Employment trauma

[WolfSpirit]

Okay, I know some of you won't know what I'm referring since you're not in Canada, but I moved my thoughts out of the private conversation on the issue because I'm sure this is a broader subject. Anyways, here goes. There is this Canadian survey right now about how to educate employment agency staff on barriers autistic people face. It's actually quite good, overall surprisingly. Somewhat triggering, but not overly so for me. Their perceptiveness on the subject has got me realizing just how traumatic the entire subject of employment is, and always has been for me. So many barriers, so little recognition if them, much less acknowledgement, much less acceptance!

I looked up one of the organizations to see if I could learn more about this survey, and whether we'll be able to find out the outcome of it. Immediately I was reminded of one more barrier that wasn't in the survey, and didn't occur to me to mention, but has been a huge aggravation. The presumption that my problems getting a job are because I lack the prerequisite skills to do so!! And I mean basic skills about social appropriateness or responsibility, or that sort of thing. While it may be valid for many disabled people, and autistics specifically, I grew up undiagnosed, with a single parent, so responsibility and independence were extremely important skills!! Among a few others I can't think of at the moment.

My biggest problems, and the biggest barriers were other people's assumptions, and their unwillingness to question, or change them!! They'd either see how intelligent, and/or capable I am, and expect waaay too much of me, or expect me to perform at that level 100% of the time, no matter what, or they'd see that I didn't communicate, or interact in a typical fashion, and they'd jump to the conclusion I was incompetent, and incapable of contributing. Or, they'd do both at the same time, and penalize me for my abilities, and blame me for any difficulties that inevitably crept up, ir "weaknesses" they saw!!!

Needless to say, this led to me exhibiting avoidance behaviours and generally trying to "run away" from the whole concept!! Both pre and post diagnosis. I am starting to realize that these behaviours were trauma based, and therefore not my fault, and not personality or character flaws. Yet more examples of the world's biases and screwed-up-ness, that I always thought were mine.

 

[Thinx]

I get what you are saying, and I agree it's tough. However, your ability to perceive this is a great asset to help you plan. Despite not knowing about autism as a younger person, I had worked a lot on self development and awareness, and that helped me make adjustments.

I'm not of course suggesting that is how things should be, but I do think enhancing as much as we can our self understanding is one key we have to open doors despite the barriers. It takes time for things to change, meanwhile we can in some cases still work for a decent wage if we can find the right balance for ourselves.

I didn't by any means find that an easy path, but it's part of what we can do to assist ourselves. It's great that you are getting involved in explaining what some of the barriers are to people who need to know. Meanwhile, there's still ways forward.

 

[Aspychata]

Truthfully be said, l feel like a trained lab rat, show up at this place, be nice, you are awarded green paper, society smiles kindly on you. Like others say here, green paper really doesn't motivate me, but l kinda like the computer system they have. My ideal job would be 35 computers and me being trained to keep the software running day to day. But l am in the service industry. lol. My bosses are cool too. Low key, easy going. People try to manipulate me, using lack of money or you could make so much more money, but it is useless. l just prefer to rot in senior citizenhood with as little complications as possible.

 

[Ronin82]

So many feels!!! I had the same realization a while ago, but right now the big one for me is the inability to get paid a livable wage for what I CAN do. I know my skills are a profitable item for any employer, but since I do a lot of work in the non-profit sector, and have diagnosed disabilities, I'm expected to "volunteer" more than actually get paid to do what I do. It sucks, since I have very specific skills that can be utilized, but since I need significant accommodations for various physical and mental issues, no one wants to actually HIRE me to do what I do. So frustrating!! This is contributing to spiraling mental health decline, since I can't make enough money to survive. I hate people some days...

 

[Running Girl]

Employment issues have been enormous my whole life. At some point much too late in the game I realized all the jobs I tolerated or even liked were the ones where I worked alone, or alone plus a 1 hour lunch with some interaction with others- stressful but possible. If I knew then what I know now, my choices woulda been so very different. But even many neurotypicals could say that, I bet. So, here I am doing my best to pretend, to mask, to try so hard to pass. Well, I am still employed. Canada sounds lovely as does much of Europe in terms of recognizing our needs. usa not so much!

 

[WolfSpirit]

Employment issues have been enormous my whole life. At some point much too late in the game I realized all the jobs I tolerated or even liked were the ones where I worked alone, or alone plus a 1 hour lunch with some interaction with others- stressful but possible. If I knew then what I know now, my choices woulda been so very different. But even many neurotypicals could say that, I bet. So, here I am doing my best to pretend, to mask, to try so hard to pass. Well, I am still employed. Canada sounds lovely as does much of Europe in terms of recognizing our needs. usa not so much!

Oddly enough, the USA is actually much further ahead than many countries (including Canada, in some ways, unless things have changed that I'm not aware of). I don't know if it's still true, but when I was beginning to enter the workforce (or, well try, at least), I discovered that one of the big differences between Canada and the US is, in the US, the ADA guarantees a right to work. In Canada, there is no right to employment for adults with disabilities. Right to education, yes, employment, no.

I also remember someone (or several) saying once during and Autreat presentation that the US actually led most of the world in understanding autism (abilities and needs), even as poor as that understanding was. That Canada was about 15 years behind them, and ... ummm ... I forget what the other country was we were discussing. It might've been Israel. Any rate, whatever the country was, it was 30 years behind the U.S.

Of course, my information is many years out of date, but...

 

[WolfSpirit]

Truthfully be said, l feel like a trained lab rat, show up at this place, be nice, you are awarded green paper, society smiles kindly on you. Like others say here, green paper really doesn't motivate me, but l kinda like the computer system they have. My ideal job would be 35 computers and me being trained to keep the software running day to day. But l am in the service industry. lol. My bosses are cool too. Low key, easy going. People try to manipulate me, using lack of money or you could make so much more money, but it is useless. l just prefer to rot in senior citizenhood with as little complications as possible.

One paradox I've always thought was wrong (never mind extremely aggravating, and a massive barrier for our kind of people) was that employers all want experience, but nobody's willing to provide it, except the service industry. It's probably changed somewhat these days, what with the changes in the world, and technology, and... well, everything, but when it was relevant to me, it seemed like everybody entering the workforce was expected to start in the service industry, and there were no options for those of us for whom social interaction was a huge barrier, and/or utterly impossible. The only other option was a 'sheltered workshop', (also known as 'not real employment'), and that was only for people with significant intellectual impairments, or psychological problems so severe it prevented independent living and almost all interaction with society as a general rule.

When I first graduated high school (and believe me, even the "allowance" by family that I not get a job while not still in high school was a huge, albeit, unspoken struggle to attain!), it seemed like I was caught in a 'catch 22', because I was expected to get my first job, but all the jobs that were available were those in the service industry! Between my (unlabelled) autism difficulties, and all my trauma issues related to interacting with unknown people (and known people, for that matter), it was an impossibility! ... And yet, my mother forced me to go around and deliver resumes periodically. (that in itself was a huge fight, which I sometimes momentarily won, but really just delayed another one, and eventually lost.)

This was back in the days before email, when you actually had to physically go around and deliver resumes to businesses in person. Needless to say, it was an exercise in torture! All that going to strange people, being expected to be 'grown up', and competent, etc. and initiate coherent speech, and trying to follow incomprehensible 'conversations' and respond 'appropriately', etc, etc. and then repeating it over and over again!

 

[WolfSpirit]

So many feels!!! I had the same realization a while ago, but right now the big one for me is the inability to get paid a livable wage for what I CAN do. I know my skills are a profitable item for any employer, but since I do a lot of work in the non-profit sector, and have diagnosed disabilities, I'm expected to "volunteer" more than actually get paid to do what I do. It sucks, since I have very specific skills that can be utilized, but since I need significant accommodations for various physical and mental issues, no one wants to actually HIRE me to do what I do. So frustrating!! This is contributing to spiraling mental health decline, since I can't make enough money to survive. I hate people some days...

I can't tell you the number of times I've heard this complaint from my US friends on the spectrum! Sucks that with all the progress that has been made in society, this hasn't improved! (or much.)

 

[WolfSpirit]

I've been thinking about this whole issue some more, and thought I'd post something I wrote last summer after an argument with my mom about gender equality in general, and in the workforce, specifically, and wound up being a discussion about equality in general. At the time she had a habit of 'flying off the handle' any time the subject came up. In this instance, it was a news article on tv. She would rant and rave about how 'young white males' (under 50, I think) were do hard done by these days because of all the efforts at equality society makes. . Nothing anyone said (especially me) seemed to do anything but inflame her more. She was convinced single dads, and males with (female) partners who took advantage of them, and made them do all the housework were a much bigger part of the population than anyone would admit.

She's still rather sensitive about the issue, but not that long ago, she finally admitted that perhaps her perspective, and that of her friends wasn't perhaps a majority one. . Blew my mind a little. I thought nothing was going to 'bring her around'.

Anyways, here's what I wrote (minus the attempt at education on the practice of equality measures and it's real intent vs. her perceived intent. And slightly edited for privacy purposes):

Yes, [my brothers] have had employment difficulties, but I gave up entirely on the whole notion, virtually before I got started, because of the barriers and obstacles that I encountered that they'll never have to face, and that nobody even acknowledged, or accepted were even there!!! Even the people whose career it was to help me find a job, told me they wouldn't. Because I was too different, in a way they didn't like. They found jobs for people with much more severe disabilities than mine, but because I appeared just enough like everybody else, and just different enough to be weird, they refused. Others simply couldn't help me find a job. They didn't know how, or how to learn. Again because I was too different.

[My first autism specialist] was the only one who even noticed the barriers and obstacles involved. She was also the only one who almost convinced me that it was doable, that I could find a place where they would accept me, any place I wanted. And that, if I wanted it, we could really make it happen. ... And then the [academic discrimination and harassment] happened, and again I had the world telling me that not only was it impossible, but that I wasn't wanted, or acceptable, and that my participation in the world in general wasn't wanted, or acceptable, and that I was too different to ever be able to contribute anything meaningful, or important, and that I should go hide under some rock, or in some hole where no one would have to deal with me, and never show my face again. That the one place in the world, where I might have a place, I didn't belong there either.

[Both my brothers, and my mom have] said that they don't understand why I thought I wasn't able to work/wasn't employable. THAT'S why. Because the entire world told me my whole life that I wasn't. And just when I began to feel like maybe they were wrong, and there was some little corner of the world where we might be able to convince someone that I had something to contribute, I got reminded otherwise. That "we can't think of a way to accommodate you, so we're not going to." was the exact sentiment used by those [who were initially responsible for the academic discrimination and harassment]. And when I protested, it got worse. WAAY worse. [Long story.]

Now I wouldn't give up the peace of mind I've found with myself and my life for anything. Certainly not for a little bit of money, that might not be consistently available, and a lot of interpersonal challenges and intolerance from people who not only don't 'get it', but don't want to 'get it', because I'm not like them, but seem like I should be. Because the world has a narrow, rigid view of who is 'right', and who is 'wrong'. Who is 'acceptable', and 'worthy' of having the necessities of life, never mind the perks, and who isn't. Never mind the loss of functional ability in other areas of my life that make living independently, and having a good life, because I'm wasting all my energy on interacting with people who won't tell me what they expect from me, or accept that I interact differently than they expect me to.

But I gave up before I even really started, because the barriers and obstacles society presented (and still does) were just too difficult. There were 100 (or maybe 1000) obstacles and barriers in my way before I even entered the process, never mind the ones when someone like me actually 'gets their foot in the door'. And you object to systems and policies that would remove some of those barriers because it seems to remove options for people who are perfectly capable of fighting for themselves, and can 'walk up to the front door and knock' without essentially mountain climbing first??

Nobody's trying to attack those with fewer barriers, or who enjoy any sort of privilege (or multiple ones). They're just trying to make the situation, and society in general less hazardous and impossible for those who don't. (not that it's a simple black-and-white situation. One can have privilege and experience discrimination at the same time, about different things)

 

[VictorR]

Oddly enough, the USA is actually much further ahead than many countries (including Canada, in some ways, unless things have changed that I'm not aware of). I don't know if it's still true, but when I was beginning to enter the workforce (or, well try, at least), I discovered that one of the big differences between Canada and the US is, in the US, the ADA guarantees a right to work. In Canada, there is no right to employment for adults with disabilities. Right to education, yes, employment, no.

To clarify, the ADA does not grant the right to work, but rather

Title I of the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 prohibits private employers, state and local governments, employment agencies and labor unions from discriminating against qualified individuals with disabilities in job application procedures, hiring, firing, advancement, compensation, job training, and other terms, conditions, and privileges of employment. The ADA covers employers with 15 or more employees, including state and local governments. It also applies to employment agencies and to labor organizations. The ADA's nondiscrimination standards also apply to federal sector employees under section 501 of the Rehabilitation Act, as amended, and its implementing rules.

source:
Fact Sheet: Disability Discrimination | U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission

I will agree in that Canada is lagging, since the Accessible Canada Act of 2019 only applies to federal jurisdiction organizations, and is intended to start a 20 year process.

The purpose of the Accessible Canada Act is to make Canada barrier-free by January 1, 2040. This involves identifying, removing and preventing barriers in federal jurisdiction in the following priority areas:

• employment

...

source:
Summary of the Accessible Canada Act - Canada.ca