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Equality, turning women into men...

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Gomendosi

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I write this on my phone so I may be a bit brief...

I see less and less girls turning into women and even fewer still turning into ladies, "Laddette To Lady" is a reality show that brought to light what appears to be the new view of femininity in today's society.

Do you feel females are still feminine or are they a bit too blokey or tomboyish now. Do you think the times reflects women being more in control of their own path. Have women become more functional in society at the expense of being the opposite of the male?

When i get back to my computer I can further elaborate if neccesary ; ]
 
It depends on how we are to define femininity.

I'm not old enough to have lived through any difference. Women seem feminine enough to me.

Have women become more functional in society at the expense of being the opposite of the male?
It depends on what you mean by more functional. To see if something is succeeding at its function we need to know what that should be. In regards to biology it can be said women aren't functioning as well as their ancestors did as they are deciding to have less children. I'm talking about whites in the first world, of course.
 
Why should "being opposite of the male" be put at odds with being functional in society? Women contribute to society no matter what their personal level of femininity is. And being less "traditionally" feminine doesn't make me less of a woman. The same goes for men.
 
Growing up in the 90's, my mom never wore dresses, watched baseball, football, basketball & pro wrestling more than my dad did & loved Stephen King books & movies & horror movies & she played Super Mario Bros. 1 & Sonic the Hedgehog 1 video games. Yet she loved to watch ABC soap operas, All my Children, One Life to Live & General Hospital. That doesn't make her any less of a woman.

I watch baseball, football, basketball, hockey, UFC, pro wrestling, play video games, & love horror movies. Yet I don't care about cars, I used to watch soaps, & I don't drink alcohol. That doesn't make me any less than a man. I still watch Animaniacs & I got into Batman: The Animated series. Just because I still like cartoons & other kids "stuff" doesn't make me any less of an adult. Animaniacs had jokes that kids laughed at, yet there were double entendres that teenagers & adults understood & found funny. Those two "cartoons" are more adult than most nighttime prime time tv shows & are more kid friendly than most of today's kids shows.
 
All these definitions about what thoughts, behaviours, attitudes, actions, interests, ways of speaking & being, careers, etc. that have been defined within the society (meaning mainstream Western) are largely archaisms anchored tenuously within sociology, religious bigotry, misogyny & presumptuousness. Women's voices were excluded from the discourse on what it meant to be female & 'feminine'. All the truly desirable traits, the empowering ones,the ones that granted a person agency over their own life, were ascribed to men by men. Femininity as a social construct is a male invention. The times during which these expectations were conceived were not ones in which being a woman was a desirable thing.

I fail to understand how the freedom to become educated and forge one's own destiny is problematic. Being utterly dependent & unequal was not a good place for women: we were sitting ducks in need of protection from our so-called protectors!

What I'd like to see happen is that society evolves beyond its narrow-minded expectations & texts about femininity, masculinity, womanhood & manhood, gay/straight, white, black & all the tired old societal 'axioms' that act as antiquated distortions. Equality between men & women has been misconstrued by the mainstream to mean that feminists (any non-traditional woman for that matter) want to make women become just like men. That is not at all the case. It isn't about men's social construct representing an ideal to 'rise up' to. It is about EQUITY: not 'in order to have a just & equitable society, women must become as much like the male stereotypes since those are the preferred ones.'

Feminism is about re-assessing gender constructs for both men & women. Boys got pressured by narrow-minded fathers to be manly. That meant never cry, never show emotions (because those are feminine & therefore weak traits). It also meant only enjoy rough activities like football & other pursuits that fit into narrow constructs of maleness. These idiocies (tinged with homophobia) robbed successive generations of boys of their humanity. They were forced into a mold that was ill-fitting for so many.

The entire gamut of these expectations have more to do with social bigotry than biological fact. I'd like to see all of it tossed into the scrap-heap of debunked quackery.
 
I personally think it is manners and respect in general that has been lost; and that applies to both genders. Often how we used to show respect was closely tied to gender roles (imo). For example, men no longer offer their seat to women on public transport, and women don't graciously accept it either (I've seen a women scowl at a man and refuse to sit because he was being "sexist"). This interaction is a display of manners entirely dependant on gender roles.

I had a flat tyre outside a train station once. I wasn't strong enough to loosen the nuts so I could change it myself. While I waited the 20 minutes for my Dad to arrive to help me, any one of the 23 men I counted walk past me could have offered to help. It was not a matter of a "damsel in distress", I simply couldn't do it myself and needed someone with a bit of muscle to help.

I would be interested to hear what you think of the concept that "being a lady" is associated with showing good manners and being gracious?
 
I fail to understand how the freedom to become educated and forge one's own destiny is problematic. Being utterly dependent & unequal was not a good place for women: we were sitting ducks in need of protection from our so-called protectors!
This needs to stop. You are not your female ancestors. You are a person in the present, living right now. I have female ancestors too and can feel for them regardless of being male. Half of my genealogy came from my mother, 25% her mother etc.

Stop making this so divisive. Men and women have had to deal with horrible things throughout history. Even today there is a lot of male AND female suffering. But they're are human problems. We are one. You don't need to blame the evil man for everything. It is literally disgusting.
 
Communication is 10% fact and 100% interpretation and as Aspies we all have issues with interpreting and filtering things, but it does seem that we really like to argue semantics more often than answer questions!

That peacocks have evolved extraordinarily gorgeous plumage while the peahens have not, this is evolutionary and has no bearing on who should or shouldn't be prettier, who imposed what constraints on what gender over the peafowl's history or whether one or the other is better at rearing the young or foraging for food, in much the same way as a man will wear non pant clothing but call them kilts or sarongs or togas, it should go without saying that if neither of your legs is encased in fabric it does not mean you are less manly/ more feminine, it may just mean that you like the feel of the air rushing around your undercarriage.

Look, men are male and women are female, this is an evolutionary/ god given fact that is irrefutable, women have lady bits and men have boy parts and that goes beneath the surface to internal body structure, so no matter which way you slice it [nods to Gunther von Hagens] we are different, absolutely.
I don't dispute that women can be steelworkers and weightlifters but they simply cannot inseminate a man, and by the same token men can embroider the **** out of things, and make a wicked souffl? but they are unable to initiate another human life inside themselves, so no amount of equality is going to make us even in any respect, ever.
(And from previous threads I already know you all hate it when I say that men have always been jealous of women and that women are the true principal sex)

So, it would seem that I don't so much make as ask a question as incite people to riot (LOL), I mean that it is easy to miss the point of something while we are focusing on the smaller details. What I was asking was, are men and women losing the non evolutionary differentiations that define them within society largely due to the forceful insistence of equality, but now I see that women were always just men with boobs, its was always that the male need to subjugate and terrorise literally forced all females to accentuate their non-male qualities since the dawn of time simply so man would be able to tell which ones to mate with.

By turns I have been labelled a bully and now a chauvinist, obviously by definition of the questions I have asked on this forum, can I suggest next I have the classification of martyr put upon me ; ]

Really, I jest, thank you everybody for your answers but some things are so preposterous in their nature that you have to laugh rather than cry, is it really all we can see in this thread is how bad women have had it from men? Why no matter how nicely worded a question is about the difference between the two predominant sexes, does all the tired rhetoric get wheeled out to obscure the original point. I don't say women haven't been hard done by, I merely wonder why in a forum filled with people who have been hard done by themselves for race, sex, sexual preference, neurological makeup, physical ability (and so many other sticking points) do we feel the need to accentuate and encourage differences rather than come together to share knowledge and help those who don't understand.

You can intentionally learn so much from open minded people and accidentally learn even more from people who are shut off.





Addendum;

I was so busy writing & rewording this post to be less inflammatory, in-between shopping trips among other things, that I hadn't noticed others had weighed in. Sorry if I didn't answer your questions, if in fact they were directed at me ; ]
 
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I don't dispute that women can be steelworkers and weightlifters but they simply cannot inseminate a man, and by the same token men can embroider the **** out of things, and make a wicked souffl? but they are unable to initiate another human life inside themselves, so no amount of equality is going to make us even in any respect, ever.

Just so I understand what you're saying . . . are you comparing the issue of socioeconomic equality to physical differences? I'm not quite sure what the point is here. Any clarification you can provide is much appreciated. Thank you.

By turns I have been labelled a bully and now a chauvinist, obviously by definition of the questions I have asked on this forum, can I suggest next I have the classification of martyr put upon me?

I haven't seen anyone label you as anything. You've merely started an interesting and important discussion, and several of us have chosen to contribute.
 
What I was asking was, are men and women losing the non evolutionary differentiations that define them within society largely due to the forceful insistence of equality, but now I see that women were always just men with boobs, its was always that the male need to subjugate and terrorise literally forced all females to accentuate their non-male qualities since the dawn of time simply so man would be able to tell which ones to mate with.

Non evolutionary differentiations?
- How they dress
- How they act (or interact)
- How they speak
- What they do for a job

In short, yes.
 
What I was asking was, are men and women losing the non evolutionary differentiations that define them within society largely due to the forceful insistence of equality
I don't think everyone will agree where evolutionary and non-evolutionary roles begin and end. Though I don't think there are many non-evolutionary differentiations. We can pretty much do whatever we want now and still survive (at least in the first world). But for the past 250,000 years the social behaviours that lead to more babies and less deaths became instinctual, so I wouldn't call it non-evolutionary. Most of what we are is subconscious. People may disassociate with certain roles in the first world now, as they can afford to. But wait for a major global catastrophe and I think you'll see people find their instincts very quickly - like they were never gone to begin with.

To answer the question I think roles become relaxed during easier times, not totally due to any forceful insistence of equality, but that probably is a factor too. Yes, I think some people want male and females roles to blend and they have done so, much to a negative effect in regards to child rearing. I think there is a more sinister/alternate reason behind blending roles but it would take some time to explain (has nothing to do with feminism but rather societal structure, economics and exploitation).

All the truly desirable traits, the empowering ones,the ones that granted a person agency over their own life, were ascribed to men by men. Femininity as a social construct is a male invention. The times during which these expectations were conceived were not ones in which being a woman was a desirable thing.
no.
 
To answer the question I think roles become relaxed during easier times, not totally due to any forceful insistence of equality, but that probably is a factor too. Yes, I think some people want male and females roles to blend and they have done so, much to a negative effect in regards to child rearing.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but I respectfully disagree. I've seen no evidence that working mothers or stay-at-home fathers are detrimental to raising children. I have no scientific studies to quote at the moment, but I can speak from experience. Both my parents have worked all my life---they're attorneys---and it has not harmed me or my brother one whit.

I think there is a more sinister/alternate reason behind blending roles but it would take some time to explain (has nothing to do with feminism but rather societal structure, economics and exploitation).

Please enlighten us. I'm patient. Take as much time as you need to explain your perspective---but please don't reduce your reply to one-word answers. If you disagree with what's being said, at least provide perusers of the thread with the reasoning behind your thinking.
 
I couldn't sleep due to stress so I decided to smash out what some of you may consider absurdity. I think it was worthwhile mind-play even if it doesn't make sense to you.

The amount of labour required to maintain a household is not of any natural consequence in our current economic system. In fact, it has been demonstrated that under a different system we would only need do a fraction of what we are today. (See: The Zeitgeist movement as an example, though many different societal structures are possible). You will have to take for granted that our current system is not the result of scientific method as I won't be arguing for that.

Imagine the total amount of human labour required to run our current society as x. The average amount of work done by each person is x/n. n being the total population minus the non-workers. You might think that to increase the working population relative to the total population would decrease the value of x/n and it does to some extent. However, the value of x is not fixed and there is still the average reward per unit of work to consider: (income/(x/n)). And then there is the cost of living (C) relative to all of this. (income/(x/n)) ~ C.
(Just for clarification, if C is greater than (income/(x/n)), that is a surplus, if it's lower, deficit.

The amount of labour required is not necessarily controlled by any one group, but strained by many outside influences. These influences will draw as much labour from the human populace while giving as little in return as possible. If you increase the amount of workers, three things will happen to compensate: x(total work required) will increase, the reward (income) for completing work will decline and the cost of living (C) will increase.

Therefor, If the role of home keeper or stay at home mum is to dwindle and these women are to work full time instead, It doesn't mean that the family will be any more wealthy. You can say 'why don't men be home keepers?'. They can, however that isn't what happened. The amount of women who have entered work (most) is much much greater than men who have left (almost none).

Now that Pandora's box has been opened, women (or men) rarely even have the choice to return to home keeping. Most families simply cannot afford to not have both parents working. Consequently parents are less available to their children and families are not any more wealthy despite the increased work (see wealth disparity).

Parents being less available to their children means less influence over their child's development. Indeed, I'd say most children are raised by government schools/day care rather than their parents. If you don't include time spent sleeping, did you spend more time with your parents or more at a school as a child? For me, it's the latter.

The point of this isn't to say women shouldn't want greater independence. Just that the proposed way of getting there may be misguided.

Less people working over all would be a huge step in the right direction. This applies to both genders. Although women ARE more important than men when it comes to raising children. Yes, this means it is more important for them not to HAVE to work.

So what I really want you to ask yourself is whether women have fought for independence or whether they have fought their way into slavery? Have you simply won the right to be worked like men? Who is benefiting from the growing wealth disparity?
Is 'independence' really worth having to work your entire life? Is it what you really what you want? I personally don't, not even as a male.

Greater independence and prosperity for the world can be gained by altering the structure of society (THE ZEITGEIST MOVEMENT, look it up people). But even if society is too much of un-tamable beast to do anything logical with, I still don't think any effort to increase the amount of work done by parents (or people in general) of either gender is logical and in the end only deprives the children.

I don't know if that's all I wanted to say, and I've probably missed explaining some pre-required knowledge or ideas. It's always easy to subconsciously assume people have thought about similar things and therefor forget to mention important info.
 
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Jeff, thank you for your post. You've made some good points. However:

Less people working over all would be a huge step in the right direction. This applies to both genders. Although women ARE more important than men when it comes to raising children. Yes, this means it is more important for them not to HAVE to work.

Women are more important than men in child-rearing? I'm afraid I have to disagree there. I'd say that the presence of any parent is worthwhile, whether said parent is male or female (or two men, or two women).

So what I really want you to ask yourself is whether women have fought for independence or whether they have fought their way into slavery? Have you simply won the right to be worked like men? Who is benefiting from the growing wealth disparity?
Is 'independence' really worth having to work your entire life? Is it what you really what you want? I personally don't, not even as a male.

While I understand your concerns about the wealth disparity among the classes, I respectfully say that any comparison between the right to join the workforce and slavery is unsound. No one's making women work, but we want to, just as any man would. For example, American women who went to work while their husbands were at war during WWII helped maintain the necessary production of goods and services for the country's armed forces, and for its civilians. When the war was over, the women were expected to return home and resume their lives as wives and mothers. But many of them protested. Work was exciting for them. It allowed them to learn skills they had not previously known and put them to good use.

Slavery was intended to keep slaves ignorant and without property to call their own.

Therefore, I cannot see any similarities between the experience early working women had and the experience of slaves.

If you believe work, as you've defined it, is a form of slavery, then that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. But I'm not going to stay home all day and tidy the house or do needlepoint while I wait for the kids to come home from school. Not when I could be doing something more important with my time.
 
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To add another complication to your arguments Jeff, I would like to point out that the type of industries a country has will also weigh quite heavily into the discussion.

A farmer and his wife will support the nation with food, support other industries like logistics and retail, and have more time for their kids than someone who works in the industrial industry. With a shift away from primary producers, a country then looses money out of it's economy by paying for those goods to be supplied, whilst still having to pay for it's other industries. In fact logistics becomes more expensive given the distances those goods now need to be transported.

The majority of people then move into cities (where there's work) with all the problems that go with it. More people equals higher demand on goods and services, equals higher cost of living, results in a second income being required to support the family. I think this phenomenon could equally be blamed for the loss of values in a family, not just the feminist movement.

Just my two cents worth.

Christy
 
(THE ZEITGEIST MOVEMENT, look it up people).

Okay.....

The Zeitgeist movement is the first Internet-based apocalyptic cult, centered around a doomsday-proclaiming film and an ideology filled with classic anti-Semitic tropes

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/57732/brave-new-world

(I'm not saying that you're anti-semitic or anything, I just felt like it was worth mentioning that there are some unsavory elements to this movement, however innocuous it may seem on the surface.)

As I have mentioned here, we have had problems with people posting "conspiracy theory" stuff here, so I would appreciate it if you not get into anything of that nature here:

http://www.aspiescentral.com/obsess...piracy-theories-other-paranoia.html#post33739

The people who promote conspiracy theories often have extreme agendas (for one thing, several of them promote anti-vaccine conspiracy theories, and discussion of those are banned here: http://www.aspiescentral.com/asperg...ctrum-disorder-connection-controversy-ac.html), and people here who discuss conspiracy theory stuff often get rude and trollish with those who don't agree with them (please don't serve as an example of this).
 
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The pastoralization of home life is problematic. Those who tend to see being a 'stay at home' mother as some ideal state whereas being a working woman as a form of slavery have probably never walked in either pair of shoes. Stay at home mothers are, with few exceptions, an over-worked & exhausted lot. The work is back-breaking (literally:picking up toddlers all day, picking up behind them does your back in). It is a job that goes round the clock: small children often don't sleep through the night. It also is dirty, messy, often loud work. Furthermore, it does not pay a dime but can cost a fortune. It leaves a woman dependent upon the magnanimity of her male partner. While some husbands are egalitarian & financially fair towards their say at home wife, these are not the rule. Many women find themselves disenfranchised, infantalized & living off of a meager allowance.

Western women began entering into the workforce in droves during WWII when men were sent off to war & women filled the factories. Society expected these women to dutifully return home after the war but this was not the case. Women learned that they can work a 9-5.They could earn a living & become financially autonomous. THe belief that women work outside the home because because their husbands cannot afford to keep them at home is another myth. Many of us are married to men whose income is sufficient to support a family. We work because we CAN. We have the education, training, experience & ability to develop ourselves & cultivate a career. Why sit around when you can become a doctor, nurse, cop, teacher, pharmacist, whatever!

As for not valuing having children, many women of yesteryear had many children simply because there was no birth control! women got married very young (usually by age 21) & began cranking out babies within 9 months of the wedding. Every 18 months or so, another one popped out. Right into the 1920s, childbirth was the leading cause of death in women of child-bearing age. Right now, in much of the world, this remains the case. Birth control did as much to liberate women (& men as well) as did marches & legal changes. We no longer had to be breed cows. Just because a woman can have a baby, doesn't mean she WANTS to be a mother or is someone who ought to have kids. We do not value children less today than previous generations did. Often, in households with many kids, they were underfed, neglected, less than clean & poorly raised. Beatings& harsh discipline were common & many farm children worked long, hard hours from a young age. It is easy to look at the problems of the present day & contrast them against a romanticized version of 'good old days' that were not what we distort them into.

Divorce rates have doubled too. Used to be that, in most western countries, a woman could not ask for a divorce. Few women could support themselves & a brood of children & society frowned heavily on divorced women. As soon as women could also divorce, they did thus doubling the divorce rates.

Many people think that day-cares & other care-givers are not as good for children as a parent is. This is a myth! In fact, many kids learn more, receive better care & thrive in daycare settings as opposed to with an often harried parent who has no training whatsoever (many daycare workers have a BA in Early Childhood Education). Having reproduced does not automatically make someone into a good parent. Studies on day cares' effects on children have proven that, overwhelmingly, they are beneficial & do not harm children. In the 60s, the argument that day cares were not good for children was used to make working women feel guilty, selfish & inadequate. No more! We know better. Children need reliable, good care. Whether that is from an opposite sex couple, a gay couple, a loving single parent, & a great care-giver matters little. Where children are cared for, feel safe & loves & engaged, they thrive.


 
I don't think women are less feminine. But it's hard to tell. I mean, what exactly is the definition of feminine? If it means a personality which is natural to women, I think it will be impossible to stomp out. Women will always be women, simply in different settings, in different cultures, but they will always be women living in and responding to those cultures.
As for men, even if it had been that in every culture they were providers, their life would still have varied tremendously from century to century, culture to culture. I mean, providing by hunting for your hunter-gatherer family, and providing by going to an office are two vastly different experiences.
Presumeably the stay at home expereince of women in different cultures has also been subject to wide variation. So this is a complicated subject. As Christy said...
To add another complication to your arguments Jeff, I would like to point out that the type of industries a country has will also weigh quite heavily into the discussion.

A farmer and his wife will support the nation with food, support other industries like logistics and retail, and have more time for their kids than someone who works in the industrial industry. With a shift away from primary producers, a country then looses money out of it's economy by paying for those goods to be supplied, whilst still having to pay for it's other industries. In fact logistics becomes more expensive given the distances those goods now need to be transported.

The majority of people then move into cities (where there's work) with all the problems that go with it. More people equals higher demand on goods and services, equals higher cost of living, results in a second income being required to support the family. I think this phenomenon could equally be blamed for the loss of values in a family, not just the feminist movement.

Just my two cents worth.

Christy


Many people think that day-cares & other care-givers are not as good for children as a parent is. This is a myth!
As a professional Preschool teacher...I would say that depends. That really really depends.

I do know that some people are really suited for parenthood, others less so. Sometimes it's just a matter of temperament. Some women are amazing with children, some men are amazing with children. Some are not.
As far as parents go, some are terrible, some are wonderful, many are somewhere in between...Same goes for preschools As preschool teacher I've seen that many preschools are actually pretty terrible places. A few are really good. This is something that can only be seen from the inside. It's tough to gauge based only on the tour and advertising spiel the director gave you. The same goes for Preschool Teachers and especially Infant/Toddler caregivers. Many of those I've encountered are pretty nasty and cold when it's just them and the children and coworkers. They're pretty nice when parents are around. (As an Aspie, I managed to be really loved by the children and disliked by some parents).
Of course there are others who are wonderful. It's tough to tell unless you actually work with them.

99% in this line of work are female. However, I've noticed that the few men are pretty much always really really good caretakers. I think the reason is because it is such a female dominated field, some women become Nannies/Infant Caregivers/Preschool teachers for the wrong reasons, but, because it is such a female dominated field, any man who does this must have to really really want to, in other words, must genuinely love children.

Of course, the important thing to a child is to be loved. If he is loved by a biological parent, or by a paid caregiver, either way it's the same.
However, and this is the big bone I have with the child care system, there is one big problem.
Experts, PITC for instance, have repeatedly said that the child must be with the same caregiver from birth to age three, or better yet, til age five.
Instead, the way most Centers do it is...the infant is separated from the parents (this is very traumatic by the way. Trust me). Then eventually (let's assume this is s nice caregiver) the infant begins to bond to the professional caregiver. He/she settles in and becomes pretty happy. As soon as he/she starts to walk, he she gets moved to another room with another teacher. More trauma. Several days of uncontrollable crying and fear. Then he/she eventually becomes comfortable and happy and starts getting attached to the new teacher. Now the child has a birth day. Gets moved to another room, another teacher. Same process over again. This happens over and over.
Some preschools do the thing better, but the situation I described above is the norm.

Personally, I'd rather take care of kids than be in a job that involves adults. Though that's me. When it comes to adults, things don't go so well for me. Kids are more accepting. Babies don't judge you.
 
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