How much should you change?

[King_Oni]

Alright, after looking around a bit on the web, income, support stuff like that, it raises a question, that's rather similar to if you need meds.

Clearly, the way I function by myself is fine... as long as nothing external gets involved. Thus, I can keep myself sane as long as I'm doing things I care about and as long as it doesn't involve other people.

Now, if I decide to get coaching/guidance, I'm quite sure they want me to change. I tried to change, that got me depressed, near suicidal. Thus with that, might come that I might need a handfull of anti-anxiety pills, anti-depressants and more stuff like that. Heck, I can't even deal with noises or bright sunlight. That stresses me out enough to take a door of it's hinges or just punch someone in face who is waiting at a traffic light. But still, I can keep my personal stress to a minimum, and as such I'm doing OK.

But like I said, I can see how coaching will interfere with this and will try to force a "new" lifestyle upon me, that I'm quite sure, will not work for me.

So how much of it can be forced? Even if it means that you should be drugged to even "function" in the slightest bit. It stresses me out that they want to force "social training" and "a healthy daytime schedule" upon people. That does not work like that for everyone, that's something a therapist once told me. Some people are night people for instance.

More and more I feel like a shut in, and I'm totally fine with that. I contribute that partially due to AS, but still it seems that job centers do not take it seriously, and just expect me to come over, even without support of any kind, up to the point where they're ignorant and telling me "myea... if you need more meds, or seeing a therapist, so be it, fact is we're not having to pay you any unemployment benefits anymore".

Thus, how much can one be expected to change, even if it comes with the cost of private (not so much personal) well-being, by means of coaching/therapy?

 

[Harpuia]

Considering that my psych has told me I have a case where I have what she considers a very light case, all I'd really need to do to change is to learn a few coping skills and deal with it. Considering I work, have an HMO, and my teammates are very understanding of my situation, I think I could probably handle that.

 

[King_Oni]

Considering that my psych has told me I have a case where I have what she considers a very light case, all I'd really need to do to change is to learn a few coping skills and deal with it. Considering I work, have an HMO, and my teammates are very understanding of my situation, I think I could probably handle that.

Myea... I pretty much have on file "severe ADHD, prone to moodswings and needs time to keep track of his obsessions a lot", as well as a almost high score in my tests (the only thing that was off was me being able to speak really early on; but besides that AQ of 46 out of 50; thus.. severe HFA actually). Thus pretty much my day revolves around my personal art project most of the time, and in the past I've become really depressed (and ended at therapists) when I had to cut back on time I could spend on things I liked.

Add in that I'm a night person, and as such I prefer to do my "work" at night because during the day I'm exhausted. I live pretty much in darkness all day and get outside during the night, don't leave the house without my music on (and if I'm in a mood where I don't want to listen to music, I just don't leave the house at all; even if it's for groceries. Not eating is better to deal with than noises and lights on the street during day.

Then comes the fact that I do not have any education at all, because I just never managed to care enough for it, or just was the outcast in terms of social interaction, chances on employment are quite slim. Unless I'm doing some kind of factory job, which within a week will make me call in sick and at some point will lead to self-harm. That's something I all have on file in that way.

Thus, that's why I wonder... how much can you force change upon someone if the outcome wont really change that much. it just feels like it's "just to see how it works out", little do they understand that some people will end up worse.

Also; You mention you have an HMO (had to look it up, cause I'm not from the US). Even to file a similar thing like that I need support, just so I can even afford services to help me get my stuff sorted out and eventually get some therapy/training that I actually want and might benefit from... but help in filling in those forms isn't really there so it seems.

 

[Bay]

Just a couple of thoughts about your comments thus far, King_Oni. My understanding of these things is not very sophisticated so please bear with me (and feel free to correct me) if I say something inappropriate.

First, I don't believe that learning skills that help one function in the world is tantamount to changing one's nature. I think of them as a sort of veneer or mask that I can choose to use or not. I am the same person inside, as long as I want to be.

Second, for myself, just as I believe that it is helpful for others to be aware of my needs, I also believe that I must be aware of the impact that my behavior and needs have on other people. You are obviously very intelligent yet it sounds as though when it comes to functioning in the world you believe yourself to have some impairments. None of us have any control over the extent to which we are disabled, but I believe we must remember that, like it or not, our disabilities do have an impact on others. It is not fair but it is true. I believe that taking steps to lessen the impact of my needs on other people, especially those I care about, is important.

That said, there are many times that people have urged me to change my behavior when I knew it would be devastating on me, and it was. People do not seem to realize just how hard we can take things and that the resulting anxiety can last not just for hours but for years. To be fair, however, there have been times when pushing myself a little past my comfort zone has paid off, and I have gained confidence from small victories. Not everything I do to protect myself in the short term is in my long term interest.

I don't know you well, but perhaps meeting your girlfriend and beginning a relationship with her might be a good metaphor. Perhaps there was a point, early on, when you weren't sure you should have the relationship (we all fear being rejected), but you took the risk and it resulted in something good. There are so many points in life where we take a small risk. Seems like many don't work out but some of the ones that do can provide strength, happiness or simply well-being for the rest of your life.

Hope you don't think I am full of crap, and that some of what I have written was helpful.

Bay

 

[King_Oni]

Just a couple of thoughts about your comments thus far, King_Oni. My understanding of these things is not very sophisticated so please bear with me (and feel free to correct me) if I say something inappropriate.

First, I don't believe that learning skills that help one function in the world is tantamount to changing one's nature. I think of them as a sort of veneer or mask that I can choose to use or not. I am the same person inside, as long as I want to be.

Second, for myself, just as I believe that it is helpful for others to be aware of my needs, I also believe that I must be aware of the impact that my behavior and needs have on other people. You are obviously very intelligent yet it sounds as though when it comes to functioning in the world you believe yourself to have some impairments. None of us have any control over the extent to which we are disabled, but I believe we must remember that, like it or not, our disabilities do have an impact on others. It is not fair but it is true. I believe that taking steps to lessen the impact of my needs on other people, especially those I care about, is important.

That said, there are many times that people have urged me to change my behavior when I knew it would be devastating on me, and it was. People do not seem to realize just how hard we can take things and that the resulting anxiety can last not just for hours but for years. To be fair, however, there have been times when pushing myself a little past my comfort zone has paid off, and I have gained confidence from small victories. Not everything I do to protect myself in the short term is in my long term interest.

I don't know you well, but perhaps meeting your girlfriend and beginning a relationship with her might be a good metaphor. Perhaps there was a point, early on, when you weren't sure you should have the relationship (we all fear being rejected), but you took the risk and it resulted in something good. There are so many points in life where we take a small risk. Seems like many don't work out but some of the ones that do can provide strength, happiness or simply well-being for the rest of your life.

Hope you don't think I am full of crap, and that some of what I have written was helpful.

Bay

I understand what you mean.

My therapist told me that the most problematic part of me isn't my aspergers even, it actually is my personality. It's agressive, dominant and reckless. My aspergers keeps my ADHD as well as that personality a bit in line. For that reason I never gotten in big fights with people and I rather just ignore them. Though, I also know what happens if I can't ignore it, and to be honest, I'm quite happy it didn't go THAT wrong as of yet.

But with my past experience there's the issue that I've actually gotten into trouble, being fired at jobs, failed in schools, and as such I've got a decent debt in college loans already, because it didn't work for me. And pretty much all of the time I just got the "well, you have to change"... there never was a sincere talk that told me "let's see if we can meet halfway". Even if I could have that, and have a coach, for instance see if that's possible, yes, then I feel I might look for a job and do that.

I tend to think my moodswings and sometimes my thinking is really black and white. In a way, that might seem like I'm a little spoiled kid. I want my cake now, if I can't have it, within minutes I'm either ending up in self harm, threatening other people or having a meltdown, especially if it interferes with the few things I care for. I've said it a few times, I need 24 hours a day to be myself, any extra hours I can miss. Yes, that does not work that way, but that way I keep my cool. I can't even count the times where I lost my cool in the past... nothing really recent, but where some people just scream, I literally take doors of hinges, take hammers to walls to tear them down or punch a hole in a door even. Chances are that if I owned a car I'd probably just crash into other cars for the sake of venting. I tried therapy, I even did martial arts as a kid, that ended up where I hospitalized a kid with broken bones including some on his face. The most recent incident was about a year ago, where I got into an argument with my dad, took our a door that I kinda hurled through the room and threatened to kill him. Yes, I'm a walk in the park most of the time, just don't get on my bad side. I never got diagnosed for such things. I just got my diagnosis for autism. I'm sure that if they dig deep enough there's enough to warrant me totally out of my mind; but keep in mind I'm not taking meds and I'm doing it all by myself to keep myself happy. I remember that when I did tests the psychologist of the job center concluded; I'm quite laidback in most cases however if I lose my cool chances are people will get hurt severely (and me being 6'2 and about 250 pounds, you need at least a few big guys to even hold me down). Thus "don't push it".

But yeah, I try really, really hard to keep my cool when I'm on my own, I can do it pretty well... it gets all wrong as soon as I'm expected to do X.

As for the metaphor with girlfriends, I see what you mean, but with my train of thought... I'm still very, very vengeful of my ex girlfriends. I never ran into any of those for a while (ran into an ex on NYE; but that's about it over the past 3 years. But still, if I had the chance...I'm like that silly saturdaymorning cartoonshow supervillain. I'm vengeful on my worst days and people will get hurt badly if I have the chance. Perhaps I'm a sociopath, perhaps I'm just that vengeful with everything that tried to change me and wasn't for the better. I try to not take any risks anymore, just because I can deal without a lot of hapiness but I can't deal with a lot of depression anymore. But at some point I feel that even I am like "ok, enjoy fooling around" but to be honest in that brain of mine quite often common sense is missing and I don't even care. I rather just have people leave me alone. Maybe that's also why now I'm dating a girl who lives over a 100 miles from me. If things break up, chances are I wont run into her a lot. However, vengeful yes... rational, also. There's a line of why I might be vengeful. I'm not equally vengeful towards everyone. The most recent person on my blacklist was a close friend of mine, who I warned to not push it. I haven't seen him anywhere anymore, and he lives 15 minutes from my house. No I'm not a bully... I'm just making sure people don't cross a line with me.

I think the biggest issue with my current situation is that I'm halfway in a situation that's either black or white. By law they forgot the include the shades of grey in terms of support that works for people like me.

Now, don't think of me as some kind of agressive guy in general, I think I'm quite friendly and can put up with a lot... until that one point. And even if that happens, I've been putting up with a lot of crap before. But dealing with perpetual crap will result in casualties.

So far in "meeting halfway". Yes, of course there's the people I care about and make them a bit aware as well as meeting them halfway. What if... there are pretty much none. To be honest, I don't really care that much for my parents. Yes, it's good I live at their house, but I don't feel a lot of for them most of the time. The only person I care about is my girlfriend. And she's on the same boat as me. And with that, she has pretty much the same mindset as me. She's on the spectrum as well and with that we compliment each other fine.

Also; yes, I can see how you mean "pushing yourself past that comfort zone might work" but how far do you push it? and what do you push? Some things aren't that much of a gradient to push. Some things you can't meet halfway. There's no gradient to "you have to be here at 1 pm" in case of me not wanting to leave the house at all. The closest thing to a gradient is "leave the house", then comes the stress of meeting up with someone, which is pushing it to far already. Of course, longterm is a different deal, but if I can't feel good shortterm, I don't know how long term is gonna work out. That'll be hell.

But like I said; if people would even meet me halfway and get in talks about what there is to be done, that would help. I know I can't expect everything, but it seems I can't expect anything, and that does not work out for me.

 

[epath13]

If you decide to change a little or a lot you would have to do it because you think you need it whether it's for employment or not. You would have to decide how important it really is for you. If you don't consider it as important than nobody can do anything for you. Therapist (unless he or she is some sort of egomaniac) won't force you to change, therapist's job rely on your wishes not on theirs, or society's. If you're comfortable with life you're living now then there's no issue, if you're not and want changes then you decide what compromises you have to make, but you don't make those compromises for anyone but yourself.
Another thing, and I think I might have mentioned it already somewhere, you've got used to the lifestyle you have now so any other lifestyle would require adjustment, for some people it can take several excruciating months to adjust but in the end there's a good chance those people will find new balance and be satisfied. There's no guarantee but if a person wants new life those are the risks he/ she might need to take.

 

[King_Oni]

Just based on my personal situation now;

Of course... but change also comes with a price and with proper support, both things I don't have a lot of, nor have a decent way of getting so it seemed today. I believe that IF I would want to change, the first thing to do is move out and remove stuff like my parents out of the equation. Having them both around the house all day watching tv while on disability, sneaking around the house all night isn't really motivating either, but for that I first need a more stable financial situation, and that has become increasingly more unstable since today.

My therapist kinda told me that changing me would require a lot of support, as well as adjustments around me, but it could've just as well be for the worse (and thus I'd be more messed up then I already am), besides there is direction in where I want to change to. The way I'm doing my stuff now isn't wrong, it keeps me happy. Just like poppin pills I might end up being more prone anxiety, stress and stuff like that, and since my autism actually is quite severe according to diagnosis, there's a big chance that all that time and money spent would probably still leave me somewhere I am today, probably with more issues.

And with that also comes, that if I need to change, it's because of social services, but they don't understand that that requires money and time, and isn't done overnight.

But to be honest, no I don't want to change... I like me and to make it better, I like me enough that I'd rather kill myself instead of changing. I have my personal goals and that's all I live for at the moment. So there's that complication as well. Forced change leads to depression, and moreso with me.

No, I don't contribute to society that much I guess, but with that comes the entire argument of entitlement of survival... should I blame my parents for creating the person I am today, or even giving birth to me?

 

[epath13]

What kind of job do you think you would be able to get right now? Realistically. I remember, in 2004, my husband was trying to find a job in the Netherlands, it was pretty hard because of all the rules and regulations, that's why we moved to Ireland after he found a job there. Is it as hard now as it was back then? Anyway, I think you have to forget about your feelings for a moment and make some lists.
Skills you have
Previous experience
Jobs you might get
Sensory issues (maybe put these on top, they can help you to with job's choices)
Principles/ opinions that have gotten in your way sometimes (meaning created issues for you)

I think, and you tell me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you don't believe that anything can be changed or adjusted. I think it's a common misconception among people on the spectrum and even among regular people. In many cases you don't have to bang your head against The wall you can just walk around it, many people have to learn how to navigate around difficulties. It's not easy, but it's an important skill to gain.
I think you sort of put all your eggs in one basket. You main focus is on your personal interests, personal activities, now you need to spread out the attention and it's hard.
The only solution I can come up with, that you need to have a new goal that you will have as much passion to as to your current activities. You might even need to fake it for a while, pretend that you really really need it, dream about it. I know it might sound crazy but you need to rebalance your thoughts and then throw yourself into unusual environment (like working or job training). You need to have anchor in that goal that you only can achieve if you, let's say, independent and can maintain a job. I think you're so stuck you need to be "thrown off the cliff" or "thrown in water", do you know what I mean? Slow solutions might not work for you. But you do have to have a dream so you don't slip into depression... You might say, you aren't passionate enough about anything, then fake it for a while, think about it as if you are passionate for your dream, find elements of that dream that are really enjoyable, that you really would like to have.
That's the last idea that I've got.
You know who I think would be good for you right now (a type of person) chef Ramsay. You need to find some energy, some passion for life, and realize that you don't need to fix your Asperger's or ADHD instead you need to learn how to navigate around the issues you can't fix.
I hope it doesn't sound like I'm too harsh on you, but the only reason why I'm saying it is because I think you can handle it.
Maybe you should talk to your shrink and figure out some different strategy he can use on you.
Don't give up! Your parents did the best they could. Now it's your turn to build your life, to do something with your life they could have never done, or could have never teach you how to do.

One more thing, there's a book, that I have mentioned long time ago, in that book there're step by step directions how a person on the spectrum can address issues in life. It's pretty good, it isn't working well for me because I'm more of an intuitive person, I follow completely different set of rules, but it might work for you. See if you can find it or talk to your shrink about it (if you want). It is "Living Well On The Spectrum" by Valerie L. Gaus

 

[King_Oni]

I'll try to dissect your post a bit epath, makes it a bit easier.

If I think about a job I could do... I have no clue. And if I think about jobs I'd like to do; those are far from realistic. And the moment I enter a job agency and ask them "what do you think I could do?" there's the awkward silence, they look at my history, the add in my "issues" and they figure out... "nothing... you're impossible to deal with on a day to day basis for jobs". That's not motivating. And yes, it's easy to say "then you have to figure that out yourself"... yes of course, that's how I ended up starting in college 3 times and 2 times in university and dropped out. Apparently I need decent support to help me sort that out, and to be honest, that support is not their, nor affordable.

When I talked to my therapist about jobs, she pretty much said "I have no clue"... the closest thing I can see you doing in the future is living as a shut in, doing some art. And that's what I'd be fine with.

I mean, looking at The netherlands as means of support for having jobs. I'm not healthy as means of that I need help/support on a job. Unless you suffer from low functioning autism they don't think you can do a job, because... well you're not "stupid", but since you have issues they can't help you score a job either. The few people on the spectrum I've spoken to that hold jobs, are ones who have degrees from college, thus sensory issues weren't a big problem with them even in school, thus on jobs it's not that much. Those people were ones that didn't have friends, but wanted to have friends. I didn't have friends and I don't care for friends and social interaction. The fact that I'm in a relationship is somewhat of a strain on me already sometimes, but since my girlfriend is on the same boat as me we can talk things through pretty well, and we don't have a problem in not talking to each other for a week, or not seeing each other for a month or so.

But anyway, you're deemed pretty much impossible to get a job. And that doesn't involve an extensive list of issues. Just the fact that I do not want to deal with people is enough, or that bright lights give me a headache. Simple things are too much of a problem for job centers already. Thus, there's no change in whatever works for me, I'm expected to do a full 180 and hope it doesn't backfire. And the best is, I have to do it without support. I'm not seeing a shrink anymore. Social services do not have people that are even aware of what autism is. The funny thing is, that according to some statistics; my situation isn't an exception in Holland. Most people with HFA/Asperger's are unemployed and collecting welfare because they can't be put to work to wherever it works. It's not a personal problem, it's a national problem. And the new change in laws they proposed will put even LFA people in that spot as they're closing down a lot of "sheltered workshops" (at least that word is what google gave me) and just expect actual companies to hire people with disabilities. Research pointed out that roughly 4% of the 70.000 closed jobs on those workshops will get actual replacement. But since there's a lot of unemployed people already, chances are those are being picked first because they can deal with more stress and all at companies. Another funny tidbit. The yearly budget of my city to coach and train people for jobs is already gone. Within 4 months they've blown all of it, thus before I get support there, I have to wait another 7/8 months, and hope that by next year those budgets aren't being cut back or they think I'm not "messed up enough" to get training and coaching.

So to be honest, yes, I understand the change thing you say. But with that there needs to be money, time, support. Throwing me in the deep might be good yes, but that might only help if a company is willing to hire me and try me out. But since there is no money for them to be had in wasting time on me to check me out, companies will not do it.

Also; yes I support the idea of working around my issues. I don't believe in meds anyway. But also here; I'm quite sure that I cannot just fix it on my own. With that I might need a coach of sorts. But again, since budgets for coaches are long spent on other people... which raises the issue that there are more people in need of support then there is money for, which is a sad realisation, that leaves me to figure it out on my own.

No, it's not that harsh, I can understand what you mean and all, it's just... looking at how The netherlands in general treats people who have employment issues (and everything related from income to coaching), it makes me cringe a bit since I feel there's not enough money and decisions are made by politicians who used to be managers, and thus only know about "how to cut back on money". That's the political side of how a lot of people cannot get proper support to change and actually get back on route... and that's a different deal for everyone based on the geographic location.

 

[Gomendosi]

"There are things I really mean that I will not say, there are things I can say that I do not really mean"




Let me just say this;
When I was young I could not cope with anything, food, family, sunlight, bathing, same sex, opposite sex, isolation, groups, money, time and all other things besides, I locked myself in my bedroom and was practically never seen, many things happened during this self imposed hermit phase, many, many, were bad things which are mine alone.
One day I understood I would die and the world would live on, I decided to join it and live despite the intense pain, and on that day I think I became a person.

I most recently got a job and the only way for me to function was to swap everything in my entire life for that job. I did so, all my routines and comforts were replaced with aspects of the job, and everything I did was the job.
That job finished and finally I could be me again.

Despite that I have not addressed anything you’ve said, life is interaction with everything!

 

[King_Oni]

Despite that I have not addressed anything you’ve said, life is interaction with everything!

That's ok... I think that in general the idea of people having to change or wanting to change is topic on itself, I just threw in myself as an example.

 

[Spinning Compass]

I once read about a racehorse who started out as a pacer but his owners wanted him to be a trotter instead so they fitted him with special shoes to change the way he ran. He did go on to become a trotting champion but I just wonder how much better he would have been if he'd been left to run the way nature made him. I can really relate to that, I often feel like that myself.

One of the words on the back wall of my church is "authenticity." As a person on the spectrum, I have a hard time with that word. Yes, I know what it means, but I am not sure that the world really means it when they say be authentic, be yourself. Because that is not what we on the spectrum hear at all. The world does not accept us as we are, it insists that we change to suit them, and you are right, King Oni, there is no meeting halfway. There's no compromise or possibility of a compromise, it's society's way or the highway.

I have told my friends at my church time and time again that to survive I have to put on a mask, that authenticity is not an option when you are on the spectrum, and they just don't get it. They just do not understand. And I know I am not as bad off as many people here as far as sensory issues. Because I wasn't "allowed" to have sensory issues, period. I wasn't "allowed" to be anything other than what was demanded of me. I am like the horse that had to wear special shoes to change the way he moved. The irony is now at work they are talking about working from your strengths rather than your weaknesses. Well, it's about 30 years too late for me. I know what they are trying to say but the indoctrination is too deeply ingrained. The best I can do is appear to change, to say the things they want to hear.

 

[Harpuia]

It's funny, I had a similar background being raised in a hardcore Christian background. My parents didn't believe in mental health because the groups they were involved in did not. I always knew my entire life I was a little "off" from most people and I was being forced to go one way when no matter how hard I tried to work with them, I could not. Like Spinning Compass, I wasn't allowed to have sensory issues until I finally moved out of the house. I was only allowed to be what everyone (mostly my parents, but that entire community in general) wanted me to be.

My workmates are being a little more understanding and are working with me, so they are at least meeting me halfway on it. Probably one of the benefits of being an engineer, you meet plenty of others very similar to you and can kind of understand where you come from. Others on the other hand are not as forgiving... ESPECIALLY the church types. In fact, that is the very reason why I haven't been to a church in over a decade. I hate churches, I hate the entire church society, and I have pretty much given up on religion in general because it's not about helping you, it's about making the leader's (whoever it is) and his friends' egos feel good to your deficit.

 

[Arashi222]

Ok sooo I started this three times and still am pondering how to respond. I guess I was lucky as a child. I had a family that was for the most part very supportive of my weird or differing issues with things. I tend to agree with Bay though. For me i understand that my behaviors are tough. They don't provide a lot of shifts I am very rigid and tend to get upset if people deviate from the norm of what I expect from them. However I also understand that I want people to give me leniency I have to at least provide them some understanding that i do get that my behaviors impact other people.

I don't know if we ever change unless we really want it and work at it to keep those changes. Meeting people halfway is important. They can only do so much for us without our willingness to help ourselves.

 

[Alpaca]

All I want is to belong. With somebody, or something. To feel like I'm not just merely existing and that people actually value me as person.

 

[Harpuia]

All I want is to belong. With somebody, or something. To feel like I'm not just merely existing and that people actually value me as person.

This... oh God this to the very letter.

With a side of good luck too. I'm sick of being the unluckiest player alive in poker...