How to ask aspies to do something in a team

[RosaViolet]

I know, I should know the answer or know better. I am working with a team of autistic people and together we achieved quite a lot and made huge progress. It is quite inspirational and new to most of us, it is useful for a common good and an area of interest for all concerned. However it is an unstructured group and we are sort of getting stuck. People are having bursts of activity when they have their hyperfocus moment and tend to focus on their particular interest, which is great, but some of the things require to be agreed together. People are excited by their special interests, which is to be expected, but before we could each focus on our own thing, we really have to agree together on a common thing. A contract. It is detailed and requires focus and requires to sign. How do you get a team of aspies to look through the contract and sign?
An additional difficulties is not to upset anyone and not to trigger anyone's PDA (pathological demand avoidance) side. A few people in a team are quite bossy and controlling but hate being bossed around. Am I bossy? Probably I am although I don't mean to. I mean it's an aspie thing, we should know each-other and be tolerant, or do we?

How to speak to PDA aspies and get them to do something as part of our common project?

It must be possible, we all done teamwork, what is the formula? please.

 

[Gracey]

?
I'm guessing in an attempt to help

Make the contract all about them?

Present it as fact.
No ambiguity. Literal.
Give opportunity to raise concerns, correct, challenge, in a time frame.

Set clear rule, " Before each of us can start ...(doing whatever it is you're doing) .. We each need to agree with the terms of this contract and then sign to confirm we agree"


When I'm presented with a contract to sign, I'm automatically looking for clauses and how they're planning to shaft me.
It is probably more a case of my misinterpretation of how a part of the document is worded and my expectations; based on my interpretation, not being met.

 

[Pinkie B]

I'm new to this forum and to PDA and while at first I thought it didn't apply to me, I'm wondering if maybe it does...

So my advice isn't the best out there, but I can offer this: lower your expectations! There isn't a formula for working with Aspies. We're different than NTs and we share a lot of similarities (like literal thinking and a love for predictable routine), but there's still no formula and we do require more time and care to accomplish certain tasks. So step one is maybe trying to build in a cushion there?

And then focus on being extremely precise, predictable, objective and clear. Minimize ambiguity in the task itself, the time frame, the instructions, everything!

That's all I've got.

 

[Suzanne]

Lol you would NEVER get me to join a group!

I run in the opposite direction and that would even be if I was with my fellow aspies.

I think of it this way: no neurotypical person gets along with every other neurotypicals and so, the same applies to us aspies.

It has been established that even though we have a common theme amongst us, we can still get annoyed by each other.

Take two aspies. Are they each going to give the time of day, to listen to each other's passions? Nope, more inclined to do the opposite. Some aspies may laugh and think: I recognise myself here, but many would get frustrated too.

I cannot deal with more than one person.

 

[RosaViolet]

Thank you for your responses.
I can hear where you are coming from, Suzanne.

I don't expect this to be easy. Being an aspie I don't find it natural either.

But there must be a way. I am sure some people worked in a group and achieved results this way.

How do you adapt group work to aspies?

How to speak to PDA aspies and get them to do something as part of our common project?

 

[Juliettaa]

no neurotypical person gets along with every other neurotypicals and so, the same applies to us aspies

NT/ND aside, isn't this just in relation to humans, period?

Take two aspies. Are they each going to give the time of day, to listen to each other's passions? Nope, more inclined to do the opposite. Some aspies may laugh and think: I recognise myself here, but many would get frustrated too.

My experience of being in a group of Aspies is the total opposite to this. I've had recent involvement in a group of eight Aspies. All were very respectful, gave each other the time of day, listened to all points raised, offered advice if appropriate and no one laughed at anyone else. There was a mutual respect of our differences.

Present it as fact.
No ambiguity. Literal.
Give opportunity to raise concerns, correct, challenge, in a time frame.

Set clear rule, " Before each of us can start ...(doing whatever it is you're doing) .. We each need to agree with the terms of this contract and then sign to confirm we agree"

^^^ Sounds like a great starting point.

Hopefully if everything is clear and there's a receptive audience to address any concerns, the group will be happy and apply focus on the project.

 

[RosaViolet]

My experience of being in a group of Aspies is the total opposite to this. I've had recent involvement in a group of eight Aspies. All were very respectful, gave each other the time of day, listened to all points raised, offered advice if appropriate and no one laughed at anyone else. There was a mutual respect of our differences.

This was also my experience. A total privilege. So refreshing tbh compared to some other teams. Yayyy.
Thanks a lot

 

[Misery]

Honestly, I dont think there's any easy way to deal with this one. Alot of us dont get along well in groups... I daresay this is one of the defining aspects of our so-called condition. I've been in groups with other autistics before, and.... every single one of them collapsed. It's odd really, since so many people on the spectrum require alot of order and organization, yet can then be so incredibly chaotic in every other aspect without realizing it.

I honestly think the most important part is the structure itself. When I think back to those groups, and other things like groups in school and such where I personally would fail, the biggest problem was an overabundance of, and emphasis on, an arbitrary structure and such. Like, here's this guy in charge, here's this list of rules he sets, do exactly this, do exactly that, even if you dont want to do it, DO IT ANYWAY.... and so on. Alot of traditional group structure is simply incompatible with those on the spectrum. It gets us frustrated and stressed out, and causes us to feel confined. Something like a contract just adds to this stress, and that feeling of being penned in.

Now, I have had one very specific good experience with group work. I did some contracted work for a game developer I know, working as part of their team to create a game. Sounds simple, but I'm not a professional, and in fact, had never been contracted to anyone for anything before. Usually, I'm *terrible* in groups, and I dont react too well to being told what to do. I do my best when I'm allowed to figure stuff out and make decisions.

Well, the guy in charge understood all of this. I'm guessing he already had a couple of people in his life that were on the spectrum, because he knew *exactly* how to deal with all of the problems that I presented (and I made sure to explain every one of them to him, when he made the offer, just to make absolutely sure he wanted to go forward with it). The way the whole thing ended up working was pretty unique. Firstly, there was no forced schedule... I worked on it when I wanted to work on it, simple as that. Secondly though, nobody tried to control me, tell me what to do, or assume they knew my role better than I did. In fact, when the project started and I asked "So what should I do first?" (totally expecting to be given a list of orders, like would happen in most projects) his answer was "Well, what do you think you should do first? Whatever that is, just do that". Rather than try to micromanage everything I do... which is frustrating to someone on the spectrum... he simply trusted me to know my role and know what to do (and indeed, I knew the role I needed to play... it was the whole reason I was offered the contract). There also was nobody trying to control the METHOD with which I created my stuff. They didnt care HOW I got it done... just that it was good, simple as that.

Whole thing ended up working out brilliantly. I tended to work on it in bursts, usually when I had a sudden idea for a bit of content to add to it. Nobody ever questioned the stuff I did or the way I did it. Nor did anyone argue with me on any of it. They'd asked me to help because of my mastery of the type of game that was being made, after all... I already knew what I was doing, and nobody tried to do the whole "boss people around simply so they know you're the boss" kind of thing. Which is what often causes conflicts in the workplace or other groups... someone already knows their bloody job and is good at it, but someone above them tries placing unnecessary structure on them just because they are the boss, or "because that's how it's done". That's a bad thing for those on the spectrum, and my situation worked because that wasnt there. The whole thing ended up really working out wonderfully. I made my own decisions, nobody ever tried to question me (again, they had confidence that I knew what I was doing, and in that specific case was the most knowledgable person there about that specific type of game), and because I could work whenever I want, I tended to work in bursts of extreme efficiency and intensity, as is the usual case when any of us are pursuing a special interest. So, very low hours still meant that I had time to create boatloads of stuff.

So.... yeah, that's my experience with SUCCESSFUL group work. It's worth noting that it's pretty much the ONLY successful group work I've ever been a part of. EVERY single other group, whether it was a work thing or a school thing, tried to bring in too much control, or question my methods, or put in silly, unnecessary restrictions on it. Those are the things that kill it for me, and probably for plenty of others on the spectrum. Unfortunately, alot of people that run groups of any sort seem to have a very hard time grasping it. "My way or the highway" seems to be the usual mentality, and that just aint gonna work.


Which is the big thing to keep in mind when dealing with the idea of a contract. Contracts set alot of restrictions, and that can mean big stress and big problems for someone on the spectrum. You'd have to be very, very careful with the whole thing. A contract that might work for one person, would likely break another person entirely. What with how very badly we tend to react to stuff going wrong.

Honestly I dont envy you for the job you've got ahead of you. Must be like trying to herd cats. But I wish you the best of luck anyway.


There, I'm done with my aimless rambling.

 

[RosaViolet]

Which is the big thing to keep in mind when dealing with the idea of a contract. Contracts set alot of restrictions, and that can mean big stress and big problems for someone on the spectrum. You'd have to be very, very careful with the whole thing. A contract that might work for one person, would likely break another person entirely. What with how very badly we tend to react to stuff going wrong.

Thank you Misery for such an insightful post. Some of it is eye opening for me. In my job I worked a lot in multifunctional project teams and with those processes and deadlines and too large extent taken that for granted. Being aspie myself I found those processes, the structure actually supportive for me, it sort of channelled and carried me forward, it avoided having to negotiate progress with other team members through 'influencing' and 'people skills', you know...

So yes, I totally adhere to the idea of letting aspies getting on with their projects without putting restrictions which are counterproductive and without micromanaging how they do their thing.

However, on the contract. When you work in a team, as a group of people on something, your actions affect the others and the others affect you. So if there is no structure and safeguards at all, you can get upset or in trouble, or create difficulties for the others. Especially when you work remotely, you actually are not sitting next to the others seeing exactly what they do. So as a matter of having predictability, limiting risks and putting some boundaries, and especially, not having to negotiate and 'influence' all the time I think a structure and a contract is actually helpful.

I think of it this way: it limits the risks, clarifies the responsibility of members to each-other, it puts some safeguards, some processes on how we could make decisions and progress without hurting or upsetting anyone. It also removes the need to continuously 'influence', negotiate and micromanage the others out of fear they will cause difficulties to you.

We all know that legally contracts are also a good thing precisely in case things raise questions and you have a huge trouble sorting out the way forward. The contract spells it all out.

The contract obviously should be acceptable, it can not be arbitrary, it should be the point where agreements converge.
.

 

[Jojo_LB]

Hi Rosa,

I have absolutely zero experience in doing this kind of group work and I have never worked with a group made up primarily of aspies.

But I am posting as someone imagining myself as one of the ones working on the project(s), and what I would want, as someone who fits the PDA profile.

How does your group communicate? It appears that everyone communicates primarily electronically?

That would make things a lot more easy, especially when it comes to talking about the contract, getting them to read it and then sign it.

The contract obviously should be acceptable, it can not be arbitrary, it should be the point where agreements converge.

Does everyone in the group contribute in some way to what goes in the contract? Do they get to read some sort of "rough draft" of it first, bring up concerns, questions, issues, etc., with contract writer and/or person in charge or responsible for getting everyone to sign, in order to come up with a contract together that tries to satisfy most of everyone's needs?

If you're having a hard time getting a few people to even read the contract, it might even be helpful to tell the group what you posted here, if you haven't already. Maybe a few of them can't see the "bigger picture" of how their actions will affect the group overall:

When you work in a team, as a group of people on something, your actions affect the others and the others affect you. So if there is no structure and safeguards at all, you can get upset or in trouble, or create difficulties for the others. Especially when you work remotely, you actually are not sitting next to the others seeing exactly what they do. So as a matter of having predictability, limiting risks and putting some boundaries, and especially, not having to negotiate and 'influence' all the time I think a structure and a contract is actually helpful.

Just some more stuff to think about if you find any of it useful.

 

[Misery]

Thank you Misery for such an insightful post. Some of it is eye opening for me. In my job I worked a lot in multifunctional project teams and with those processes and deadlines and too large extent taken that for granted. Being aspie myself I found those processes, the structure actually supportive for me, it sort of channelled and carried me forward, it avoided having to negotiate progress with other team members through 'influencing' and 'people skills', you know...

So yes, I totally adhere to the idea of letting aspies getting on with their projects without putting restrictions which are counterproductive and without micromanaging how they do their thing.

However, on the contract. When you work in a team, as a group of people on something, your actions affect the others and the others affect you. So if there is no structure and safeguards at all, you can get upset or in trouble, or create difficulties for the others. Especially when you work remotely, you actually are not sitting next to the others seeing exactly what they do. So as a matter of having predictability, limiting risks and putting some boundaries, and especially, not having to negotiate and 'influence' all the time I think a structure and a contract is actually helpful.

I think of it this way: it limits the risks, clarifies the responsibility of members to each-other, it puts some safeguards, some processes on how we could make decisions and progress without hurting or upsetting anyone. It also removes the need to continuously 'influence', negotiate and micromanage the others out of fear they will cause difficulties to you.

We all know that legally contracts are also a good thing precisely in case things raise questions and you have a huge trouble sorting out the way forward. The contract spells it all out.

The contract obviously should be acceptable, it can not be arbitrary, it should be the point where agreements converge.
.

I can definitely agree on the bit of working remotely. When I was doing my development project, it was all remote (as is usually the case for indie devs). There were about 11 of us on the team, and.... hoboy. It could be confusing. There were days I'd wake up to no less than 50 seperate emails. It was... yeah, confusing. The one aspect of the whole thing that I considered problematic.

And that alone might be more important than any contract. I mean, those of us on the spectrum are usually bloody horrible at communication to begin with... REMOTE communication, with numerous people at once, makes it even harder! Even if it's a small group of like 4-5 people. Anything you can do to ease this particular burden on those you're working with would probably go a looooong way towards keeping them in line. It could end up being the defining factor. The less stress and confusion there is, the more likely they will be to actually accomplish things. Makes sense, right? I mean, it's not exactly easy to do stuff if you're overloaded and having a meltdown.

Which brings up another point: No matter what ideas you have for a contract, and regardless of what they agree to... be ready for the possibility of it falling apart. Some of us are good at dealing with structure, and in fact require it. Others, such as myself, have that inherent chaos aspect, and will rebel against any structure, even if we dont really mean to (in my case, I get even more forgetful and irritable than usual, and will become prone to random bursts of rage... not exactly productive). If someone on the team experiences that "incompatibility" with that structure, it wont matter what agreements were made, there's a decent chance of them losing control or even outright having a meltdown/shutdown. I think this is a huge part of why alot of us have trouble keeping a real job. Someone goes into the job with the best of intentions, truly trying to do everything right, but they clash with the way things are done, and their self-control simply collapses entirely. And most managers simply have no idea how to deal with that, and just get angry instead of trying to work through it.

So... have some sort of backup plan, just in case. Heck if I know what that'd be. I tell ya, management of basically anything is something I'd never want to do.

I will say though, it's really a great sign that you're thinking all of this out properly. Rather than doing what alot of people in charge do, which is going by the books, not because it actually makes logical sense (which it often doesnt), but because "that's how it's done". Bloody stupid reason, that. But you seem to be really thinking carefully about all of this, which is excellent.

Here's hoping it all goes well, regardless of just what you decide to to.

 

[Suzanne]

My experience of being in a group of Aspies is the total opposite to this. I've had recent involvement in a group of eight Aspies. All were very respectful, gave each other the time of day, listened to all points raised, offered advice if appropriate and no one laughed at anyone else. There was a mutual respect of our differences.

Ah well, since you have experience opposite to what I said; then I have to go with it being a personal problem with me. Just do not deal with groups well and although my experience has been with nt, I sense I would be expecting something from my fellow aspies, that I could be disappointed in, so keep away. But doesn't bother me.