how to help AspieFriend get a girlfriend?

[ZaphodsCloset]

This afternoon, I'm meeting AspieFriend for lunch.

My boyfriend, who was single for a very very very very long time, said that when his unrequited crushes started trying to help him find a girlfriend, he began to accept that nothing would happen with that woman. That she'd never see him as more/other than a good friend. So this is the approach BF suggests I take with AspieFriend.


How would you want a friend to go about helping you find a gf/bf, presuming you want a relationship?

There's the getting-out-and-meeting-people angle. AspieFriend is very good about this, honestly far better than most NTs are. He goes to meetups, to various social events, to story slams. My only idea for improving this is that he take an on-line course for which there are local study groups. Oh, and a family-issues support group that's mostly women.

Once you meet people, there's the don't-be-too-big-a-weirdo aspect. I'm probably not the best gauge of how-much-is-too-much. (I'm pretty weird myself, and I don't mind weird in friends or in BF bc he smells fantastic and has incredibly beautiful eyes and I'm entranced by the way his mind works. So there's a whole list of things about BF that would be too weird for other women, but I just find quirky or at most perhaps mildly annoying but none of my business.)

In AspieFriend's case, the pulling-comb-out-of-pocket-protector-and-running-it-through-hair-during-conversation stim might be too weird for most NT women, and maybe for Aspie women as well. BF says the pocket protector itself is going to be off-putting for most people; honestly I don't notice it much either way, so I hate to ask AspieFriend about it. We've taken AspieFriend with us to a few low-key events, and BF said that when people ask AspieFriend about the pocket protector, he's absolutely non-ironic about it, and *that* was what made people think he was weird. (I wasn't party to those conversations.)

Stims like rocking and nodding, and the intense eye contact/looking at people, and grinning while doing this, I have no idea how to bring up. Early in my career my employer put us through video coaching in which we were recorded giving presentations. I was horrified to see how often I did things that the coach said broadcast insecurity, even when I didn't think I felt insecure. So I just stopped doing those things, once I was aware. But from a friend, in a non-work situation, this kind of feedback would come out of nowhere.

The body odor thing, I'm going to bring up, if AspieFriend says he's open to date-non-deterrent input. Concrete tips on that, as far as I know, are deodorant (unscented Mitchum), clean-shirt-every-day, possibly undershirts, and ...ok this is metro/euro, but shaving makes a huge difference. Not sure whether I'll mention shaving.


Any advice either for AspieFriend or for me?

 

[Spinning Compass]

I don't know how to say this in a gentle way, but I have had people introduce me to socially unacceptable guys like AspieFriend as a joke. It's done deliberately with the idea of humiliating one or both of us, saying in effect, you don't deserve to meet any other kind of people.

From your description of him, say if we were both at an event and you introduced him to me, I would not take it kindly at all. I'd be saying WTF is going on, and is this what you really think of me? Quite frankly, AspieFriend as he currently is, is not dating material. Not at all. It would be cruel to let him think otherwise. He needs to have a complete makeover if he wants to date women in the social circles you travel in. And I have a feeling that if they found out you were bringing him there so he could meet a prospective girlfriend, they would not appreciate it one bit either. I know that this sounds cruel and heartless but even in this age of diversity and tolerance there is only so much diversity that people will tolerate. What you describe is over the limit.

I have been in groups where someone like AspieFriend either wanders in or is brought by a well-meaning friend who doesn't understand the dynamics of the group, and it is very awkward and painful to watch. Nobody really wants to tell the poor person that they really don't belong here, but they definitely don't want to encourage him or her to stay. When eventually this person does decide to leave, the remaining members breathe a huge sigh of relief.

AspieFriend is not ready to interact at that level, any more than a 4-year-old is ready to interact at the high school or college level. That is the bottom line. Some things may indeed be beyond his control, but an intimate acquaintance with soap and water and deodorant are not one of them. I did not realize when I mentioned taking him around to other groups that he was that socially backwards, otherwise I would not have suggested it.

 

[Ereth]

I don't necessarily think AspieFriend (hereafter referred to as AF) needs to be "made over" or should be considered the opposite of "dating material." That dehumanizes the people you deem "socially acceptable" and the ones you don't.

Is good hygiene important? Of course. Should AF learn to control his stims more? Yes. But he's neither a child to be pitied nor an "undesirable" to be reinvented because he's somehow not good enough to date.

I think what AF really needs right now is a good professional counselor who understands AS and how it manifests in a person's behavior. He should learn more about himself before asking somebody else to do the same.

But I'll be damned before I say someone is so odd he or she is "over the limit." That is utter crap.

 

[Ste11aeres]

I have heard that the best way to put yourself in the "Friend zone" with somebody, is to become a sort of relationship counselor for them.

From what I've seen, this is true.

 

[Spinning Compass]

Ereth, you raise some very good points about society dehumanizing us, and I agree that in an ideal world we would not allow ourselves to be defined as such.

However--I am writing as a person who has spent several decades functioning as an apparent Neurotypical in a Neurotypical world and I'd like to think after this much experience I know what the Neurotypical mind is like and how it reacts. My reaction to the description of AspieFriend's behavior and appearance was a gut-level yuck, and I know without even asking them, what my Neurotypical friends and acquaintances would say about associating with someone like him. "Oh hell no," would be one of the more polite replies. This is reality and we must work with it.

There really isn't any way to say these things without being offensive, but I have to ask, would you rather know the truth and be able to deal with it or would you prefer not to know the truth and pretend things are otherwise? Speaking strictly for myself, I'd rather know the truth, if my behavior or appearance crossed the line of what most Neurotypicals consider socially acceptable, if these things were a barrier to true acceptance and inclusion rather than mere tolerance, no matter how unpleasant that truth was, I'd want to know so that I could work towards changing or modifying what I could. Others may not agree, and it is their right. But my impression of Aspergers is that we are a people who are very interested in truth and honesty.

There is also this to consider: maybe the way I phrased things was offensive and insensitive and for that I apologize, as I have no other way of saying these things, but--I am not alone in how I feel. People of my generation were not raised to be as tolerant of differences as people are today. One of the biggest differences I have seen between then and now, is that when I was younger, social participation as an adult was seen as something to be earned, it was not automatically granted because of age. You had to demonstrate by your actions that you were mature enough to participate and that meant knowing the rules of the group and abiding by them. There were different expectations for children and adults and if you behaved like a child that meant that you were placed back in the child category and no longer allowed adult privileges. You found that backs were turned on you if you insisted on bringing childish ways into adult society. Cruel? Demeaning? Perhaps. But that was the way it was.

The reason I belabor this point is people of my age and generation generally control society. We're often the ones in charge of hiring and firing. We are the gatekeepers. Things are changing and there may come a point where nobody really cares how others behave and appear in public, but we are a long, long, long way from that. We are a long way from total acceptance of everyone on the spectrum, a very long way. And I really have no idea of how to change these attitudes; I can work on my attitude individually but I cannot change society's attitude and in many ways I am a product of that society. My role as I see it is to interpet that greater Neurotypical society to us on the spectrum and sometimes that means saying things that are not welcome or easy to hear.

 

[Ereth]

However--I am writing as a person who has spent several decades functioning as an apparent Neurotypical in a Neurotypical world and I'd like to think after this much experience I know what the Neurotypical mind is like and how it reacts. My reaction to the description of AspieFriend's behavior and appearance was a gut-level yuck, and I know without even asking them, what my Neurotypical friends and acquaintances would say about associating with someone like him. "Oh hell no," would be one of the more polite replies. This is reality and we must work with it.

That may be reality, but we don't have to accept it. Many people still treat non-cisgendered folks that way, and most would have said the same thing about, say, a person of color a few decades ago.

There really isn't any way to say these things without being offensive, but I have to ask, would you rather know the truth and be able to deal with it or would you prefer not to know the truth and pretend things are otherwise? Speaking strictly for myself, I'd rather know the truth, if my behavior or appearance crossed the line of what most Neurotypicals consider socially acceptable, if these things were a barrier to true acceptance and inclusion rather than mere tolerance, no matter how unpleasant that truth was, I'd want to know so that I could work towards changing or modifying what I could. Others may not agree, and it is their right. But my impression of Asperger's is that we are a people who are very interested in truth and honesty.

I'm as interested in real honesty as you are (my username is supposed to be the name of some angel of truth or something), but honesty doesn't necessarily have to come with a side of spite. There are ways to soften the blow, at least sometimes.

I don't know what our age difference is, but I too spent most of my life unaware that I was autistic. I was just "odd." And people reacted to me in the same way that you reacted to AF---I've been openly insulted in so many ways that I can't keep track of them all. And none of these things for which I was so ostracized were some behavioral problem or distraction from school, etc. I was just being myself. More specifically, in recent years I've been considered "undesirable dating material" and worthy of mockery for that "reason." I will never change myself for the sake of being accepted by and included in a society that encourages cookie cutter elitism. I'd rather be an outcast.

There is also this to consider: maybe the way I phrased things was offensive and insensitive and for that I apologize, as I have no other way of saying these things, but--I am not alone in how I feel. People of my generation were not raised to be as tolerant of differences as people are today. One of the biggest differences I have seen between then and now, is that when I was younger, social participation as an adult was seen as something to be earned, it was not automatically granted because of age. You had to demonstrate by your actions that you were mature enough to participate and that meant knowing the rules of the group and abiding by them. There were different expectations for children and adults and if you behaved like a child that meant that you were placed back in the child category and no longer allowed adult privileges. You found that backs were turned on you if you insisted on bringing childish ways into adult society. Cruel? Demeaning? Perhaps. But that was the way it was.

The reason I belabor this point is people of my age and generation generally control society. We're often the ones in charge of hiring and firing. We are the gatekeepers. Things are changing and there may come a point where nobody really cares how others behave and appear in public, but we are a long, long, long way from that. We are a long way from total acceptance of everyone on the spectrum, a very long way. And I really have no idea of how to change these attitudes; I can work on my attitude individually but I cannot change society's attitude and in many ways I am a product of that society. My role as I see it is to interpret that greater Neurotypical society to us on the spectrum and sometimes that means saying things that are not welcome or easy to hear.

Don't bother apologizing. You obviously meant what you said. There's no point in taking it back.

Yes, yes, you've come from a "tough love" generation---so did my parents. But while I understand how that kind of upbringing can shape a person, I don't believe it gives that person the right to use that as an excuse to be heartless.

 

[Ste11aeres]

I knew an Aspie man who came across as quite weird. My coworker described him as "creepy." He was actually quite gentle...I know what genuine creepiness is (it's that one guy who I feared wanted to pull me into his truck) and this poor aspie guy was harmless and gentle. But I knew why she felt the way she did.

Guess what? He is happily married. He and his wife (I got to know them very very well) have a wonderful loving relationship. She understood him, and he understood her, and they both understood their tiny Aspie son. She's an Aspie too.
Sometimes it's just a matter of finding the right person.

Now it's true that for a person who comes across as "weird", there are fewer fish in the sea, it will be harder to find that "right person." But it's possible.

 

[ZaphodsCloset]

Oh wow, although there's some disagreement among contributors here, to me it all sounds true. The gut-level yuck and most people's reactions to that ... and the it's-still-possible-to-find-the-right-person.

I don't want to ask AF to change himself. But is his haircut (bald spot surrounded by heavy thick, um something between a spare tire and a halo) and bushy mustache essential to his core identity? I think the pocket protector would meet a lot more tolerance if the rest of the package were easier on the eyes. (I don't mean looks per se; AF is a good-looking guy.)

Yesterday as I approached the lunch place, AF was waiting outside. The first things I noticed were his hair, described above, and windbreaker, worn bright yellow and some other color, over beige shirt. Once we sat down, I took a look at his pocket protector, since BF had reacted so strongly to this. It contains, among other things, a calculator with duct tape on it.

Hmm, I still don't think that the pocket protector is AF's main issue. But then, when I met BF, I noticed as soon as we sat down that he was wearing black athletic socks with black dress shoes, and I thought the juxtaposition was hilarious. I've since introduced him to custom shell cordovan dress shoes, which he loves ... and wears with the same socks, of which he has 30+ pairs. So my tolerance for quirks probably isn't representative of most single women, or people who could potentially introduce AF to single women.

As AF is now, I agree with Spinning Compass: the guy is not widely appealing as dating material. (FWIW, I've never introduced him to single women or dragged him to events with any goal other than reducing his isolation.) A while ago, he tried a speed-dating event, and it crushed him. Beforehand, he showed me the questions list he'd drafted. It was so many shades of repulsive, I tried very hard to get him to reconsider some of his plan, but he insisted that each question had its reasons. Afterward, he was gutted, but couldn't see the connection between his presentation and the reactions he'd gotten.


I asked AF, "So what do you think of declaring 2014 the year in which [his name] gets a girlfriend?" He chuckled a bit and said, "Maybe start with some good conversation." And I said, "no, I mean let's go all out, make a plan and do whatever it takes, exhaust all options. Let's have a pow-wow with pizza and a whiteboard, and BF because he's highly empathic but breaks down social rules in scientific ways." AF said he'd be up for that. I'm guessing that most of the barriers to "good conversation" also prevent him being considered "dating material."

I also asked about the mobile telephone issue. He doesn't have one, which often makes meeting up a pain in the neck. I have no idea how most women react to this, but just as a courtesy to friends, get a $20 flip-phone and load $10 on it, just so you can text when you arrive ...or just ring through to let us know you're at the gate, if you don't want to spend the $0.10. (Both BF and I live in places where it's better to have door-phones disconnected.) First he said he was probably getting one through work. But that's a contract job, so the number would likely change which he changes projects. Fine for friends, maybe not great presentation for dating. Then he said he was thinking about getting a smartphone, but was hoping unlimited call/text/data plans would drop to $10/month.

It's hard to argue for the social function of having a mobile phone, when I leave my own off and in the bottom of my bag most of the time. But my gut says that not having a steady mobile number is one more item on the weirdness list. It's also hard to argue for different clothing/grooming choices, when I look ... you know what? I'm going to try to post a picture of what I wear most days, and from that you'd probably vote me "not dating material" but somehow I have an amazing boyfriend.

 

[ZaphodsCloset]

OK, picture of what I wear almost every day posted in album visible to my contacts. It's not pretty.

 

[Daniel]

The one caveat I'd offer about "toning down" an Aspie to help him find love--the "toning down" has to be second-order change. It's got to be meaningful and permanent, and it only works if one changes for oneself because one really wants to grow. I've tried this before with someone who wasn't ready to compromise.

"[N]ot ready to interact at that level" -- that struck a chord with me! That was what I was like, and still am in a lot of ways. (I'm also realizing I was quite damaged.) So regarding the "heartless vs. realistic" debate above, I tend to side with "realistic", though with the above-mentioned caveat.

It may be heartless to say "all's fair in love and war", but, well... yeah--it's so unfair that you can't blame people for not liking who they don't like.

I have been "the creepy guy". That was actually the first impression I made on the girl I married. I've had "scary" too. I have had a lot of bad social interactions, and made a lot of bad impressions on people over the years. (On two separate occasions I made people leave parties after talking about Scientology and all the weird stuff about it.)

People who make other people feel good being around them--they seem to get liked a lot more!

I like to do that when I have the energy. Some days the best I can muster is "not scary".

If you haven't seen it (especially the Yanks on here), there's a Channel 4 series called The Undateables, about a dating service for people in England with disabilities. There were a few Aspies and Autists featured; I particularly enjoyed the guy who refused to order food, but then got hungry and started eating his date's dinner. That ended it. He did better on his second date, a sweet French woman, but--he wasn't into her! (Beggar chose!)

I also enjoyed Samantha, who has achondroplasia, a form of dwarfism, from series two--she was quite disappointed that she didn't get someone, like, you know...good-looking and charming.

We're all perfectly entitled to be exactly who we are, and do whatever we want. If we don't want to change for other people, we don't have to. But women out there? They've got expectations. I learned this, mistake by mistake by mistake.

So many... I see now that I had to learn how to talk about a whole lot more things than just the things I was interested in. Actually, more like--I still only have a limited amount of energy for that. It's draining!

Sure, I dress well and groom and look good enough, but I wouldn't be able to get on with most women, and I know that. Because I don't like being bored.

When the right one came along, I had learned enough after a few years of working at it to NOT screw it up...and thank goodness for that, because there aren't many like her!

 

[Ereth]

We're all perfectly entitled to be exactly who we are, and do whatever we want. If we don't want to change for other people, we don't have to. But women out there? They've got expectations. I learned this, mistake by mistake by mistake.

It goes both ways, mind you---everyone's got expectations.

 

[nowwhat]

He's fortunate to have a friend willing to invest so much time and effort to better his life. Hygiene improvement sounds mandatory. You'll want enough other changes to create the opportunity for someone to get past the shallow weirdness and get to know who he really is, without making him uncomfortable or phony, and without, frankly, making him appear too normal. I mean, you want buy-in, not to perpetrate a bait and switch. Very difficult line to walk. Again, amazing you would do this for him. I admire that.

The only times anyone every tried to do something like this for me were:

1. My mother set me up on a blind date (I was 13)<facepalm>
2. A satyr friend tried to arrange a very sketchy threesome literally in a hot tub with me and two (literally, again) Catholic school girls who arrived in plaid skirts. I was not of an age where this would have been acceptable, though legal, technically. I was very uncomfortable with it, not having even met the girls before and bolted.

 

[Daniel]

It goes both ways, mind you---everyone's got expectations.

In my case, I was quite narcissistic. I tend to be selfish in social situations. That's why putting others' expectations as equal to my own takes so much effort!

I agree--it absolutely goes both ways, hence the need for compromise. Relationships don't work without compromise. One can hold one's own to whatever degree one chooses, as long as one understands that a healthy, sustainable connection is a balanced one.

Would it be fair to say that many Aspies struggle with putting the needs of others at par with their own? I haven't known a whole lot of them so I can't really judge, but that's been a big challenge for me in relationships. I can't judge exactly how much AspieFriend needs to work on this kind of stuff, but it sounds like no matter what, he's going to need to meet someone who's unafraid to be their own unique self. Birds of a feather!

So, I guess I don't really agree with trying to be something you're not. Sounds like he might as well let people know up front just what kind of weird he is! Everyone is weird after all; neurotypicals are wired to keep that on the inside as much as they can, so it's good to keep that in mind if you're interacting with one. A big part of love is finding someone whose weird fits with yours.

(I work in an open office with at least fifty people in it, so I have learned to be mindful of making others uncomfortable by being too visibly "weird". Which can happen easily if I let my guard down! I also work in marketing, where one has to balance organizational needs (including surface stuff like branding) with customer needs, so I'm, like, paranoid about this stuff, apparently!)

I've been with my wife for ten years and I'm only just beginning to learn how to balance our needs. Attaining this balance has meant taking a good hard look at myself and taking steps to evolve and grow.

My older brother is an Aspie (probably in denial) who is really stubborn about doing things his way. He's always wanted a family, but he's currently stuck in a pattern of behavior and thinking that is keeping him single. He was one of those ones who didn't believe in bathing until my wife pointed out to him that he could "catch more flies with honey than B.O.", and that he could meet a woman anywhere. That had never occurred to him before.

If he wants to change his situation, he has to change the only thing he has under his control--himself!

@ZaphodsCloset--I agree with ok_so_now_what--AspieFriend is lucky have a friend like you!

 

[Grumpy Cat]

I would ask him what he wants in a SO. Who knows, maybe he wouldn't mind dating a girl who stinks and doesn't shave - so then you wouldn't have to say anything. On the other hand, if he says that he's looking to date a nice looking sweet girl, he needs a reality check. You know I believe in telling the truth. I would tell him that however he looks, is what he's going to attract. If he wants to date someone attractive, he better clean up his act (pun intended).

 

[ZaphodsCloset]

you want buy-in, not to perpetrate a bait and switch.

That's where I feel like the pocket protector isn't such a bad thing. If the hair, clothing, hygiene are improved and stims are reduced ...there's still going to be plenty of visible weirdness. The pocket protector could be updated; I could 3D-print him one.

The only times anyone every tried to do something like this for me were:

Oh man, that's cringe-intensive! So sorry your mum and "friend" did those things to you.

Thanks for the encouragement of my attempts to be there for AF; I do hope I'm not doing more damage than good.

I would ask him what he wants in a SO. Who knows, maybe he wouldn't mind dating a girl who stinks and doesn't shave - so then you wouldn't have to say anything. On the other hand, if he says that he's looking to date a nice looking sweet girl, he needs a reality check. You know I believe in telling the truth. I would tell him that however he looks, is what he's going to attract. If he wants to date someone attractive, he better clean up his act (pun intended).

This is such an obvious question, but it hadn't occurred to me. The other day, BF asked me, "So what exactly is AF looking for in a woman?" I choked before answering, because what popped into my head sounded pretty harsh: 1) good conversation (by AF's definition) and 2) a warm body willing to interact with his. AF really doesn't seem otherwise picky about looks, hygiene or anything else in a woman. BF wondered if AF really wants a gf or just has a social problem. Because he'd never heard AF make any indication of finding a woman attractive. Women I've seen AF pursue are way below AF's level in the raw looks department, and about his level attire-wise, but they weren't interested.

I also guess that AF's tolerance for poor hygiene is *very* high; I've met up with him at times when I hadn't showered for days, and when I apologized he claimed he didn't notice. But I noticed *his* B.O., and he'd probably showered that day. Like Ereth says, everyone's got expectations ... and on top of that, there are plenty of double standards.

It's technically unfair, but in many areas we women get away with having higher standards for male potential mates than we're willing to meet ourselves.

I made people leave parties after talking about Scientology and all the weird stuff about it.

ROTFLOL, I probably would have been inadvertently egging you on. I love hearing about topics that raise my awareness. Once at a rehearsal dinner, the bride's father (seated across from me) mentioned having pre-arranged & paid his funeral and burial details. I thought this was terrific, and was eager to hear about the various choices he'd made, including trade-offs in grave-site selection. The elegant woman seated next to him was horrified and reminded us that we were at a happy occasion. Worse, it wasn't like she could just leave.

(Seriously though, I think when someone gets married, it should become tradition that their parents take care of their own funeral arrangements. It'd keep the parents out of the wedding-pair's hair, keep the happy couple realistic about their wedding budget, and remind everyone about the circle of life. Plus, the funeral and wedding industries are really similar.)

I *can* keep a lid on this stuff, but I feel like I've done my time by decades of conforming and being proper etc, and it may have been easy and smooth but just wasn't fulfilling.

Channel 4 series called The Undateables

Thanks for the tip, will check this out.

I see now that I had to learn how to talk about a whole lot more things than just the things I was interested in. Actually, more like--I still only have a limited amount of energy for that. It's draining!

So, how would you suggest bringing up a verbal tic AF has? Often, he prefaces a deathly boring (to others) topic by saying "and here's an interesting tidbit" or otherwise labeling what he's about to talk about as "interesting." It. Never. Is.
(Of course, it's interesting to *him.*)

Most people tolerate a bit of mundane detail in conversation. But labeling it "interesting" almost guarantees (internal) revolt.

BF noted that AF has no interest in the bigger picture of the field they're both in. They're at different ends of the ...um, hierarchy isn't the right word. Innovation spectrum? So maybe there *are* people who'd be interested in the level of conversation that AF enjoys, but there's this huge middle ground of what women are willing to listen to, and I'm pretty sure it's easier to fake up (as I do with BF) by than to fake down (as most women would have to do with AF). Hard to imagine anyone other than his mother really wanting to hear about the kind of stuff AF labels "interesting" and needs to talk about. Even most mothers lose interest in that level of detail once their offspring reach adulthood. But "good conversation" by AF's definition is his single biggest requirement in friendship and especially in romance.

//-----TOTAL TANGENT-----// Whew, just realized: my late mother used to talk like that. It was as if she was stuck socially at 5 years old. Her topics of choice were persistently boring and naive. Which is a horrible thing to say about your own mother, right? She was charming and cute so she got away with it. She complained when other people (in group or family settings) kept on talking about things that didn't interest her, because she felt excluded. But she made no effort to find topics of mutual interest. Once when she was about 70, she was telling me how much it had hurt her to be left out of a recent conversation, just like it had for years and years. I finally asked what she would have liked them to talk about, and she didn't know; it should have been up to *them* to come up with topics she'd like, in addition to conversing on her topics of choice, as everyone did. I don't think she was Aspie though; given her sly manipulations and punitive tantrums, mild BPD seems a lot closer. To his credit, AF has more range than she did, and lots more self-insight. But the parallel between what they'd both consider "interesting" is disturbing.//-----------//

QUOTE=Daniel;80200]When the right one came along, I had learned enough after a few years of working at it to NOT screw it up...and thank goodness for that, because there aren't many like her! [/QUOTE]
Glad that worked for you!
And it's a kind of harsh reminder that AF is just beginning a process, so it's unlikely he'll get it right the first time. Sounds like he's in for a lot of discouragement. Are we women really worth that much heartache?


I don't have bandwidth right now for a dating-makeover-tactics-planning pow-wow, but will ask for more advice once it gets closer, if AF is really up for it. Thanks again for enlightening me.

 

[Daniel]

So, how would you suggest bringing up a verbal tic AF has? Often, he prefaces a deathly boring (to others) topic by saying "and here's an interesting tidbit" or otherwise labeling what he's about to talk about as "interesting." It. Never. Is.
(Of course, it's interesting to *him.*)

Most people tolerate a bit of mundane detail in conversation. But labeling it "interesting" almost guarantees (internal) revolt.

How to bring this up? Oh geez, I don't know... You know him and his feelings, so you're probably the best judge of that. Pick a moment when he's receptive!

Maybe point out--it's whether or not other people find it interesting that matters. So if he does find a girl who's interested in the same kinds of topics he is, that's great!

BF noted that AF has no interest in the bigger picture of the field they're both in. They're at different ends of the ...um, hierarchy isn't the right word. Innovation spectrum? So maybe there *are* people who'd be interested in the level of conversation that AF enjoys, but there's this huge middle ground of what women are willing to listen to, and I'm pretty sure it's easier to fake up (as I do with BF) by than to fake down (as most women would have to do with AF). Hard to imagine anyone other than his mother really wanting to hear about the kind of stuff AF labels "interesting" and needs to talk about. Even most mothers lose interest in that level of detail once their offspring reach adulthood. But "good conversation" by AF's definition is his single biggest requirement in friendship and especially in romance.

Hmm... I ended up with my wife because we were roommates and best friends, but not each other's "type" in terms of attraction. We got closer and after seven months, feelings started to evolve, and we got jealous and protective, so I started acting "interested"--opening up more, complimenting her appearance, and dropping comments that suggested I was into her (when the opportunity arose).

So if he's looking for conversation, he'd need to find a woman who was looking for that, too. I don't know if he's into meeting people online, but that's somewhere where you can connect with people based on conversation topic. But if it's going to get to that romantic place, he has to learn how to behave in a romantic way.

And it's a kind of harsh reminder that AF is just beginning a process, so it's unlikely he'll get it right the first time. Sounds like he's in for a lot of discouragement. Are we women really worth that much heartache?

I don't have bandwidth right now for a dating-makeover-tactics-planning pow-wow, but will ask for more advice once it gets closer, if AF is really up for it. Thanks again for enlightening me.

I've enjoyed this website in the past; I browse it when I feel like getting some perspective on my social skills: SucceedSocially.com. It's been put together by one guy who taught himself to get over his shyness and learn how socializing works, and he shares what he learned. There's at least one article on Asperger's.

Also, here's a site that has lessons on improving communication, and not in any shallow kind of way, either:
Lesson 2 study guide - learn effective communication basics and skills