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Impulsivity
- Thread starter thejuice
- Start date
No, ADHD trait. Autism can't have EVERY trait of ADHD, surely.
AuroraBorealis
AuuuuuDHD
https://carmenbpingree.com/blog/the-relationship-between-autism-and-impulse-control/
https://www.supportivecareaba.com/aba-therapy/autism-and-impulse-control
While surely not being elaborate scientific studies, I quickly found several sites who focus on this issue. According to them, impulsivity / inhibition control issues can be a symptom of autism (as well as other conditions, such as ADHD) and falls under the executive dysfunction symptoms.
However (and I have no source backup for this, it's just my own thoughts), there is a significant overlap of autism and ADHD, they go together often. And I am sure that same as someone can have autistic traits without showing the whole image, that's the same for ADHD. So I imagine you could have autism and either have ADHD along with it, or have autism and "only" ADHD traits. Therefore, I imagine that it can be difficult to really disentangle the two and say precisely "this symptom is autism" and "this symptom is ADHD" and "this isn't a symptom at all but is simply a stronger personality trait" (put a bit provocatively), especially if this symptom can be found in both conditions.
https://www.supportivecareaba.com/aba-therapy/autism-and-impulse-control
While surely not being elaborate scientific studies, I quickly found several sites who focus on this issue. According to them, impulsivity / inhibition control issues can be a symptom of autism (as well as other conditions, such as ADHD) and falls under the executive dysfunction symptoms.
However (and I have no source backup for this, it's just my own thoughts), there is a significant overlap of autism and ADHD, they go together often. And I am sure that same as someone can have autistic traits without showing the whole image, that's the same for ADHD. So I imagine you could have autism and either have ADHD along with it, or have autism and "only" ADHD traits. Therefore, I imagine that it can be difficult to really disentangle the two and say precisely "this symptom is autism" and "this symptom is ADHD" and "this isn't a symptom at all but is simply a stronger personality trait" (put a bit provocatively), especially if this symptom can be found in both conditions.
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AuroraBorealis
AuuuuuDHD
"Specific abnormalities in attention (e.g., being overly focused or easily distracted), impulsivity, and physical hyperactivity are often observed in individuals with Autism Spectrum Disorder."
Found this at the ICD-11 at "Boundaries with other disorders and conditions" at the ADHD part. Impulsivity is not an official criterium for the autism diagnosis but, apparently, is not uncommon among autistic people.
(ICD-11 for Mortality and Morbidity Statistics)
Found this at the ICD-11 at "Boundaries with other disorders and conditions" at the ADHD part. Impulsivity is not an official criterium for the autism diagnosis but, apparently, is not uncommon among autistic people.
(ICD-11 for Mortality and Morbidity Statistics)
Yeah well everything seems to be another autism trait these days, which is probably where the "everyone is a little autistic" rings true.
I'm pretty sure soon they're going to scrap ADHD like they did with Asperger's and just lump it in with autism.
I'm pretty sure soon they're going to scrap ADHD like they did with Asperger's and just lump it in with autism.
Perhaps, if you could say a little more about what the impulsivity you are talking about looks like, you could get a greater number of useful answers.
"Impulsivity" is not descriptive in such a way that it can or cannot be linked to autism.
Interesting, but not easy reading.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2210533618300224
OK, so I don't know who I am now. So my hyperactivity, impulsivity and short attention span are all autism traits? What's the point in an ADHD diagnosis then?
IMO they hopelessly seem to overlap even at the highest levels of medical science. The short answer? They aren't sure. But at the same time they are unwilling to admit it. So we get stuff like this to agonize over.
I myself am still wondering if I in fact have comorbid ADHD, which might explain why learning at times could be an agonizing, yet unexplainable experience for me at various times of my life both personally and professionally. I can be impulsive, but only at select times.
But in terms of the DSM-V, I'm ok in concluding I am autistic (ASD1). Neither a crime or a badge of honor. Yet medical professionals have diagnosed me with comorbids, but not autism itself, at a time when the APA was just becoming familiar in accepting Dr. Asperger's research.
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Let us not forget that ADHD and Autism both fall under the umbrella of neurodivergence. It does not seem that odd to me that there would be overlaps.
A hyper focus on labels over symptoms can lead to confusion and a focus on the wrong thing. It is possible some folks are seeking simplicity when functions of a living brain are far too complex for that.
A hyper focus on labels over symptoms can lead to confusion and a focus on the wrong thing. It is possible some folks are seeking simplicity when functions of a living brain are far too complex for that.
Statistics being bandied around the notions of dual diagnosis are at "50-70%" so, allegedly, it's not uncommon to suffer from both. I myself am diagnosed (very recently) with ASD2 and ADHD combined type.
Here is a clinic, not far from where I live, that treat the combined condition, they have some interesting info to ponder
https://www.qanc.com.au/
Here is a clinic, not far from where I live, that treat the combined condition, they have some interesting info to ponder
https://www.qanc.com.au/
Seems far too many of us have a number of comorbid conditions. At least that seems to be my observation of this community. A real mixed bag, with a few who may point out they are unaware of other comorbidities.
Lil
Member
I like the umbrella term 'Neurodivergence' because it describes our differences without judgmental undertones such as 'disability' or 'comorbidity' and because it covers those with positive cognitive and emotional abilities beyond what is regarded as neurotypical.
But we also need labels to describe the tremendous variation of comorbidities we might suffer from within this umbrella term.
But we also need labels to describe the tremendous variation of comorbidities we might suffer from within this umbrella term.
AuroraBorealis
AuuuuuDHD
It depends on the severity and your combination of symptoms.
"Boundary with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder: Specific abnormalities in attention (e.g., being overly focused or easily distracted), impulsivity, and physical hyperactivity are often observed in individuals with Autism Spectrum Disorder. However, individuals with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder do not exhibit the persistent deficits in initiating and sustaining social communication and reciprocal social interactions or the persistent restricted, repetitive, and inflexible patterns of behaviour, interests, or activities that are the defining features of Autism Spectrum Disorder. However, Autism Spectrum Disorder and Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder can co-occur and both diagnoses may be assigned if diagnostic requirements are met for each. Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder symptoms may sometimes dominate the clinical presentation such that some Autism Spectrum Disorder symptoms are less apparent."
(ICD-11 for Mortality and Morbidity Statistics)
If hyperactivity, impulsivity and short attention span were your only symptoms without any additional autism symptoms, and fulfilled the other criteria of ADHD (apparent before 3 (?) years old, apparent in more than one setting e.g. school/work and home), I'd say, it's ADHD.
If you have only impulsivity along with fulfilling the criteria for autism (e.g. significant deficits in social interaction and restricted/repetitive/... behavior, etc. etc.), you don't have both ADHD and autism, but only autism with impulsivity as a trait.
It really comes down to the question if you fully fulfill the criteria for both autism and ADHD. Impulsivity, short attention span and hyperactivity aren't criteria for autism, so you can easily fulfill the criteria for autism without those traits. Same if you only display one or two ADHD symptoms without having the full syndrome.
On the other hand, significant social deficits and repetitive/restricted behaviors etc. are fixed criteria for autism, not ADHD.
If you fulfill all criteria for both, you're gonna get diagnosed with both. The criteria are quite clear, if you stick to them. If you fulfill the criteria for one while displaying signs of the other, but not enough for both diagnoses, you're going to get diagnosed with one and either being told that you have additional symptoms of the other, or that those symptoms make part of your diagnosis (due to the overlap in neurodivergence). In the end, that's hard to say for both you and your treating professional.
I hope I could make clear what I wanted to say.
Yes, sort of explains it.
Usually girls with ADHD get missed and undiagnosed especially if they mask when in school. Had I not had extra help at school then my ADHD symptoms probably would have surfaced.
I didn't really have social deficits as such, just social awkwardness, which are both different. My odd behaviours often lead to being treated differently by my peers, which was my main and probably only social problem. But I could read body language and all that, just didn't always react how I should have done. My odd behaviours around my peers were impulsivity, hyperactivity and lack of attention. All symptoms of ADHD.
Usually girls with ADHD get missed and undiagnosed especially if they mask when in school. Had I not had extra help at school then my ADHD symptoms probably would have surfaced.
I didn't really have social deficits as such, just social awkwardness, which are both different. My odd behaviours often lead to being treated differently by my peers, which was my main and probably only social problem. But I could read body language and all that, just didn't always react how I should have done. My odd behaviours around my peers were impulsivity, hyperactivity and lack of attention. All symptoms of ADHD.
AuroraBorealis
AuuuuuDHD
Yes, that's a general issue with girls (or anyone who doesn't fulfill the rather masculine-oriented stereotypical symptoms) being underdiagnosed.
In my case, as opposed to yours, I displayed a wide range of autistic behavior as a child and still display some now. In addition, I am impulsive and a scatterbrain, I forget most things if I don't write them down and I only remember things I can see (out of sight, out of mind). Some might surely say that sounds like ADHD. But I didn't display these things when I was a young child, I don't have attention problems if my surroundings don't overstimulate me at the same time. So I get autism, and the traits that might be suspicious for incomplete ADHD are incorporated into the autism picture.
In your case, from the very limited information I have, you fulfilled the criteria for ADHD (even if they were masked at the time), and the social problems that arose are not exactly typical for autism. ICD-11 also states very clearly that shyness and simple social awkwardness to a certain extent without clear deficits in social interaction are NO indications for autism. Neurodivergent people might see that as they may, but those are the agreed criteria for now. Sounds like ADHD with no indication for autism (maybe a few traits, you know that best yourself).
Then there are others who have both simultaneously.
Because I got some one-to-one support at school with my work, and was also put on the special ed table with classmates who had things like ADD and dyslexia, it was like being unable to swim but being placed in a pool with armbands on (this is actually a good analogy because I can't swim). If I was put in a pool with armbands on, I was a very confident swimmer and could even jump into the water at the deep end. Take away the armbands and I was a terrible, timid swimmer who couldn't do without the armbands.
So it was like that for me academically all through school (not socially).
I had trouble with shyness through school and would get really, really worked up and anxious if I had to speak in front of a lot of people, like in the school nativity play or doing a presentation in front of the class.
I read somewhere that children with Asperger's are good at acting and have no problems speaking if it can be scripted. But it wasn't true for me. Shyness caused stage fright, like it can in a lot of shy NT children.
When I first started school at 4 years old I suffered unexpected school anxiety, and after listening to plenty of audiobooks on different behaviours of children (not including autism), I've learnt that anxiety can make small children act out in autistic-like ways if they are overwhelmed or frightened.
They can rock, put their hands over their ears, or become lethargic and withdrawn whilst in the environment they're unhappy in. They can also deliberately annoy other children, maybe for attention or because of instability. And tears and tantrums are also common in unsettled children under 5.
I was articulate when I was 4, just like an average 4-year-old, but for some reason starting school was too much for me, and not sure if it was a mixture of anxiety disorder, ADHD, deafness caused by glue ear, and being the youngest child in the kindergarten class.
Apparently I done things that I didn't do before 4 years of age nor after 4 years of age, such as putting my hands over my ears when the children shouted (even though loud noises never bothered me before), either being unable to sit still or sitting too still lost in a daydream, crouching underneath the tables like I was terrified of something, and blowing in other children's faces.
After having some one-to-one support, this behaviour subsided in less than a month, and I attended school part time for the rest of the kindergarten year, and I was back to my normal self again, except for the odd screaming tantrum I'd have, which I grew out of by age 6. The screaming tantrums weren't caused by sensory overload, but were caused by anxiety or because I didn't want to do something. Like one time I was being disruptive in the classroom, then when the teacher told me a member of staff was coming to remove me from the classroom, I suddenly forced myself to behave because I thought it would change their minds and let me stay. It obviously didn't. The member of staff told me to come with her, and I started protesting "I'm being good now", but she used the "don't communicate with the child" technique and went to pick me up. That made me scream and kick, I screamed so hard that it was no wonder I had inflamed tonsils that were taken out later that year (lol). I soon learned by 6 that screaming is not only embarrassing and bad behaviour but doesn't make adults give in to you.
But I can remember the school anxiety I felt. It was like severe separation anxiety, I really wanted my mummy. It's not that I found school intimidating, but the school intimidating, meaning I didn't like the building. It was a big old Victorian school, not very friendly, and felt like some sort of creepy prison. I think the fence surrounding it looked unfriendly and scary, and there weren't many bright colours like there was at preschool. I seemed sensitive to it and as soon as I was out the gates at home time I was happy again.
So all that was what got me diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome - that first year of school (the kindergarten year). It took 4 years to get the diagnosis but they seemed to have just gone by those first few months really, instead of appreciating the development I did accomplish and the way I caught up with my peers emotionally. I even felt I fitted in until I received the diagnosis.
And back to the swimming analogy, if I hadn't of had support at school, I probably would have been diagnosed with ADHD as well.
So it was like that for me academically all through school (not socially).
I had trouble with shyness through school and would get really, really worked up and anxious if I had to speak in front of a lot of people, like in the school nativity play or doing a presentation in front of the class.
I read somewhere that children with Asperger's are good at acting and have no problems speaking if it can be scripted. But it wasn't true for me. Shyness caused stage fright, like it can in a lot of shy NT children.
When I first started school at 4 years old I suffered unexpected school anxiety, and after listening to plenty of audiobooks on different behaviours of children (not including autism), I've learnt that anxiety can make small children act out in autistic-like ways if they are overwhelmed or frightened.
They can rock, put their hands over their ears, or become lethargic and withdrawn whilst in the environment they're unhappy in. They can also deliberately annoy other children, maybe for attention or because of instability. And tears and tantrums are also common in unsettled children under 5.
I was articulate when I was 4, just like an average 4-year-old, but for some reason starting school was too much for me, and not sure if it was a mixture of anxiety disorder, ADHD, deafness caused by glue ear, and being the youngest child in the kindergarten class.
Apparently I done things that I didn't do before 4 years of age nor after 4 years of age, such as putting my hands over my ears when the children shouted (even though loud noises never bothered me before), either being unable to sit still or sitting too still lost in a daydream, crouching underneath the tables like I was terrified of something, and blowing in other children's faces.
After having some one-to-one support, this behaviour subsided in less than a month, and I attended school part time for the rest of the kindergarten year, and I was back to my normal self again, except for the odd screaming tantrum I'd have, which I grew out of by age 6. The screaming tantrums weren't caused by sensory overload, but were caused by anxiety or because I didn't want to do something. Like one time I was being disruptive in the classroom, then when the teacher told me a member of staff was coming to remove me from the classroom, I suddenly forced myself to behave because I thought it would change their minds and let me stay. It obviously didn't. The member of staff told me to come with her, and I started protesting "I'm being good now", but she used the "don't communicate with the child" technique and went to pick me up. That made me scream and kick, I screamed so hard that it was no wonder I had inflamed tonsils that were taken out later that year (lol). I soon learned by 6 that screaming is not only embarrassing and bad behaviour but doesn't make adults give in to you.
But I can remember the school anxiety I felt. It was like severe separation anxiety, I really wanted my mummy. It's not that I found school intimidating, but the school intimidating, meaning I didn't like the building. It was a big old Victorian school, not very friendly, and felt like some sort of creepy prison. I think the fence surrounding it looked unfriendly and scary, and there weren't many bright colours like there was at preschool. I seemed sensitive to it and as soon as I was out the gates at home time I was happy again.
So all that was what got me diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome - that first year of school (the kindergarten year). It took 4 years to get the diagnosis but they seemed to have just gone by those first few months really, instead of appreciating the development I did accomplish and the way I caught up with my peers emotionally. I even felt I fitted in until I received the diagnosis.
And back to the swimming analogy, if I hadn't of had support at school, I probably would have been diagnosed with ADHD as well.
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