Information for a project

[Marie - ESSEC]

Hey everyone!

I hope you're all doing well today! I'm part of a group of students trying to understand the challenges of living or working with a person with autism spectrum disorder (ASD).

We have identified both through personal observations and professional help that the core challenge of living/working with people diagnosed with autism is their struggle with understanding certain moral behaviours (co-operation, communication, sympathy, …), which may lead to potential injuries.
If you have experienced these issues, please provide the following details

We will not disclose any information nor contact you in a way – we simply would like to estimate how many people resonate with the challenges we have identified.

Thank you so much in advance for your help!

 

[Darkkin]

This sounds a bit like telling autistics that the only way they can be of use is to continually mask (hide their inherently divergent traits like a fierce sense of right and wrong, stims, forthright communication, etc...) for the comfort of their 'normal' peers.

It is something the autistic community has faced for the entirety of its existence.

You are not asking for SPECIFIC challenges or vignettes from an autistic perspective. This is an autistic majority community, (yes, we have a few NT members, but the majority of active members are autistic (mostly level 1 and 2). Your defining parameters are vague concepts at best.

To wit: We have identified both through personal observations and professional help that the core challenge of living/working with people diagnosed with autism is their struggle with understanding certain moral behaviours (co-operation, communication, sympathy)

This is a flawed statement in that not only is moral behaviours misleading and ill defined, but also the fact that many 'observable' cases of autism are ASD 2 and 3, with significant social impairment that legitimately qualify as a disability. A huge contingent of ASD 1s can pass for 'normal' long enough to have a late or misdiagnosis.


Moral behavior is what is right or wrong. Hitting someone for no reason is wrong. Hitting to defend one's self is not morally wrong, context defines the word and in this case moral is being misused. It is not defined by social obligation.

Moral:

1. concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character.

2. holding or manifesting high principles for proper conduct

Take a look at definition 2...the word manifesting, basically arbitrary rules or as I outlined earlier, social obligations, not a right or wrong choice. It is a preconceived and fixed mindset.

e.g. It is Mary Sue's birthday, and Mary Sue wants olive and sausage pizza for dinner. Mary Sue's sister Alice is a notoriously picky eater and hates olives; Alice asks if she can just have toast and jam instead. Mary Sue sees this as preferential treatment and begins to cry because her sister doesn't have to eat olive pizza on Mary Sue's special day...

Is Alice just being obtuse just to upset her sister on her birthday? Most people would assume so. Sibling rivalry. The typical fix, just have Alice pick off the olives, right?

But Alice is an extremely picky eater...could there be something more behind her food aversions? Food aversion to the point that she vocalized a reasonable request...

A number of readers will side with Mary Sue, it is her birthday after all and her sister is wanting special treatment. That is sympathy. The reader feels bad for Mary Sue because of Alice's behaviour.

And yet...

How many readers cringed at the thought of the appalling texture of sausage and olive pizza? Who thought toast was a good alternative? This...this is empathy folks.

The use of the term sympathy is also problematic. Sympathy is often defined as having pity for another's situation, while being relieved they don't have to deal with the issue. A more concise term, try...

Empathy:

the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

Autistics (a significant number of late diagnosed females in particular) have what is known as the double EMPATHY paradox. We understand pain, frustration, and the joy of others. Often to a point where the emotions of the autistic are blurred by alexithymia.

An example of empathic social interactions..

e.g.

There is a difference between being 'kind' to a retail worker and being physically unable to followed a scripted reply because one's mutism has kicked in because of sensory overwhelm. Yet the autistic is going to be seen as rude because they didn't reply as they are 'required' to.

The morally correct solution, if an autistic doesn't make eye contact or a retail clerk doesn't engage in vapid discourse, don't make an issue out of it. But people do because they have certain social 'entitlements' they expect. These are social courtesies taken for granted.

Just as the OP is a clichéd neurotypical perspective on the autistic community. Read through the threads, see our community as we are, not how neurotypicals perceive us.

Consider too...

What were the neurotypes of those polled. NT OR ND? What were the documented ASD gradients of those involved, if in fact, any were polled? Without an even autistic representation in polled opinions one can point out an extreme neurotypical biase, which places all communication issues on the autistics, not the neurotypicals.

Group projects are among the worst types of torture that takes from many to benefit a finite few...mostly because they are exploitative or enforced rather than a voluntary based learning resource.

 

[Lysholm]

they have certain social 'entitlements' they expect

Like the steady stream of college students hitting all the autism forums expecting random strangers to help with their homework?

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the core challenge of living/working with people diagnosed with autism is their struggle with understanding certain moral behaviours (co-operation, communication, sympathy, …), which may lead to potential injuries.

What do you mean by injuries? As presented it sounds like the assertion is autistics are dangerous to themselves and others...as if neurotypical people are not.

 

[AO1501]

....We have identified both through personal observations and professional help that the core challenge of living/working with people diagnosed with autism is their struggle with understanding certain moral behaviours (co-operation, communication, sympathy, …), which may lead to potential injuries...

I rather think you need more homework in oder to discover what this issues really are, because if you think these are them, you're considerably missing the point.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Hey everyone!

I hope you're all doing well today! I'm part of a group of students trying to understand the challenges of living or working with a person with autism spectrum disorder (ASD).

We have identified both through personal observations and professional help that the core challenge of living/working with people diagnosed with autism is their struggle with understanding certain moral behaviours (co-operation, communication, sympathy, …), which may lead to potential injuries.
If you have experienced these issues, please provide the following details

We will not disclose any information nor contact you in a way – we simply would like to estimate how many people resonate with the challenges we have identified.

Thank you so much in advance for your help!

Greetings Marie,

I am autistic, and a university instructor, and a neonatal respiratory therapist working in one of the largest neonatal centers in the world. I also work with a few peers and physicians that are also on the autism spectrum. Excellent people to work with. Having said that, as a student with limited knowledge of how an autism spectrum condition may present, you've just received a small sample of perspective from my fellow forum members above. Don't let that discourage you, but rather you must understand that accurate responses are more a function of accurate questions with regards to context. Asking rather broad questions with rather broad assumptions will not give you the answers you seek.

Many autistics are very moral in their behaviors. In fact, I might suggest that we do best with "rules of conduct", and less inclined to deviate our behaviors in this regard. Now, where you might want to approach this is specifically comparing ASD-1, ASD-2, and ASD-3 subgroups and ask whether these "moral behaviors" are due to an actual understanding of the moral, or are they more inclined to behave out of "rules of conduct". Furthermore, there is a significant difference between each of those subgroups and age. A mature adult is not a teenager is not a child in their understanding of their world, their communication skills, and social skills. Furthermore, gender does matter. Functional imaging studies and testing have shown that the female autistic brain IS different than a male autistic brain in conductivity and connectivity, and is why females are often either misdiagnosed with something else, or are not diagnosed with their autism until much later. You really have to be specific. This is important.

It is not uncommon for an autistic individual to have what is referred to as "mind blindness" as we may not be processing all the non-verbal language (facial micro expressions, body language, voice inflections, subtle emotional content, etc.) and two, if we haven't learned the skill of pausing, asking clarifying questions, and gathering further information regarding context and perspective before firing off a response, then this can lead to conflicts, misinterpretations, and confusion. Everyone is at a different stage with this. Some ASD-1 adult females are highly skilled, probably more than some neurotypicals in this regard, so one can never assume anything. So, the questions regarding "moral understanding", I would suspect are going to be quite diverse, so my recommendation would be to make several subgroups based upon gender, age, and ASD status, otherwise you'll likely end up with "inconclusive" or "statistically insignificant" data sets.

 

[The Pandector]

I have a problem with moral behaviors? My greatest challenge in life has been dealing with the immoral behaviors of the NT majority.

Let’s start with that super-moral ‘cooperative’ behavior of teasing; please talk to me about that. Of course, let’s not forget the super-moral ‘sympathy’ of the non-active bullies who only sat back, watched and laughed. Then we’ll discuss the ultra-moral ‘communication’ strategies as the active bullies explained patiently just what it is about you that justifies the treatment you’re receiving.

And that’s before first recess on the first day of life. The construction of your statement leads me to expect that you will bring the same standard of ‘morality’ to your work. But I give you credit for coming to ask us in person about your theory concerning our moral challenges.

Have a nice day.