Is There Really Anything Wrong With Us?

[total-recoil]

I'm still delving into this distinction I drew a couple of weeks ago between Aspergers and diagnosed autistic traits. Let me clarify what I'm driving at:
There is now a certain pattern of "unusual" behaviour exhibited by us aspies that induces psychology as a science to conclude we fit into the autistic spectrum. Now, if I personalise this to my own behaviour, I can state that my obsession with noise, occasional hand-flapping and awkward body movements, lack of eye contact, poor interpersonal/awareness skills are those factors that would point to autistic behaviour. As well as my natural tendency to go off by myself and research whatever subject matter I may be fascinated by to the exclusion of everything else.
In the past, psychologists went so far as to conclude there was something wrong that needed to be adjusted in order to fit into accepted norms of social behaviour so the term "autism" had stronger implications.
However, what if......?
My experience with working and rescue dogs has taught me something very significant. If, for example, wolves are not integrated from the outset and continually integrated with the social pack, they lose the ability to function normally amongst the pack. In fact, unlike humans, they tend to become more aggressive.
Now, here is the important bit: Let's suppose we aspies are simply very different genetically to Neurotips and given this genetic difference commences its pattern from very early childhood, it's clearly in itself going to create group/social integration issues. That is, if someone is wired differently or simply different from those around him (or her), integration isn't going to happen the same as it happens for everybody else. So, in the face of rejection and awareness of isolation, the aspie is logically going to withdraw rather than integrate. This then creates another pattern in which our social skills and behaviour cannot develop in limbo and thereby creates the symptoms others find either "weird" or "autistic".
How many aspies have claimed they can "relearn" social behaviour norms, copy patterns of behaviour in NT's or even act.
In some ways this is akin to learning a second language (since we normally learn a language as a child early on, rather than late in adulthood through textbooks and exercises).
Sooo, I'll let you know how I progress with this. You could say, though, that my curiosity leads me to distinguish between Aspergers as a diverging personality trait and the autism aspect of it as an unavoidable, circumstantial by-product but not fundamentally what Aspergers is.

 

[smith2267]

that would explain our poor social skills, but not stimming or sensory issues. No, I am inclined to think we belong on the spectrum.

 

[eon]

there is absolutely nothing wrong with us. the most interesting mind-wander i have had in this general line of thought is around the idea of passion in an interest... to me that's very natural. but i struggle to imagine any alternative, or try to figure out what exactly it feels like for someone who is generally neurotypical but still pursues some interest to a huge degree of depth and passion, becomes an expert in it, and whose identity is defined by it. this is why i find it an interesting crossover in aspie personality to have very strong passions and interests. that's just a talent. it's got nothing specifically to do with the spectrum, yet it's been used to classify asperger or "savant" personalities quite generally

there is no person that doesn't have flaws. in other words we all have talents and areas of little or no proficiency. everyone, not just aspies, benefit from self discovery and understanding to harness the talents and minimize the impact in daily interaction of our lower proficiencies


see my signature.

 

[Arashi222]

I have to tend to agree with eon here. I don't think there is anything wrong with us. Different yes wrong no. I think we use our unique qualities to the best of our abilities and struggle with things just like anyone else sometimes I struggles are harder due to our issues but its not wrong just different.

 

[total-recoil]

The subject is highly complex. What I find strange is that on the one hand we aspies have a lot of positive traits going for us. Lately this has been brought to attention by the recent nuerodiversity trend and its champions (some psychologists). Such as our concern with social justice, our dedication to science, our creativity and so on.
On the other hand, there is the depression, the stims, the feeling of alienation, the awareness of being left out of group activity, the tantrums and meltdowns.
So, I was thinking about the possibility that the negatively perceived traits may be a by-product of our unusual situation where we could never make a social connection as children so we grew up in a kind of isolation.
Or is the whole Asperger syndrome just a mixed bag of black and white, light and dark? Really I don't know but I like to try and think it through in the hope of making at least some sense of it all.
What I do know is I knew I was different from perhaps aged 4. School became for the most part an alien environment so I'm aware of one very certain, definite reality. That reality is like most here I grew into an adult who is not conditioned socially. Very independent minded, very prepared to go in different directions but also extremely isolated.
Any human being who grows up outside the main group and never connects with the mainstream is certainly going to develop differently. So, you could say maybe that's a part of our seemingly odd behaviour.
On the other hand you could say I still really don't know as much about Aspergers as I hope to know. Except one big positive is since I diagnosed it, the awareness has helped me a lot be kinder towards myself and those around me. It helps to know more so I can see myself a little more as others see me.

 

[total-recoil]

Yes, good point. Sometimes I also see neurotips as "autistic". I know that depsite my weirdness I can connect with animals far better than most and even understand them. I also find it odd how neurotips seem to have to try to solve every problem in a group or act within a group mentality rather than apply individual perspective to problems.

there is absolutely nothing wrong with us. the most interesting mind-wander i have had in this general line of thought is around the idea of passion in an interest... to me that's very natural. but i struggle to imagine any alternative, or try to figure out what exactly it feels like for someone who is generally neurotypical but still pursues some interest to a huge degree of depth and passion, becomes an expert in it, and whose identity is defined by it. this is why i find it an interesting crossover in aspie personality to have very strong passions and interests. that's just a talent. it's got nothing specifically to do with the spectrum, yet it's been used to classify asperger or "savant" personalities quite generally

there is no person that doesn't have flaws. in other words we all have talents and areas of little or no proficiency. everyone, not just aspies, benefit from self discovery and understanding to harness the talents and minimize the impact in daily interaction of our lower proficiencies


see my signature.

 

[fjord]

It seems the "odd" behaviors are:
1. described only in reference to how they differ from the norm (i.e. they aren't inherently harmful; "weird" is a subjective judgment)

or

2. are a reaction to the resulting isolation (a vicious cycle of isolation/rejection and anger/depression, and faulty attempts to fit in)

or even

3. are a different sort of coping mechanism (i.e. stims, withdrawal).

So I tend to agree that there is nothing wrong. For instance, how can intense interests be a bad thing? The intense concentration that results in proficiency in a subject seems like an advantage, and something most people never attain to. However, one may argue that some interests are really useless. So, I think intense interests can be useful or not, but in either case they are a comfort or coping mechanism.

On the other hand...
There seems to be some evidence that aspies have some deficiencies (I see these in myself), for example, difficulty in grasping oral instructions and nuanced language, as well as lack of intuitive understanding of others' emotions and intentions. [Notice how straightforward everyone's posts here seem to be? I love that].

And yet on the other hand again, if those are deficiencies, neurotypicals have related deficiencies, the main one simply being a failure to say what they mean and say it clearly. I can't tell you how many times in my life I have reinterpreted foggy instructions into step-by-step format (either orally or written) for the benefit of NTs and received much gratitude for it. A former boss used to have me read his work emails and tell me what he actually needed to know. That does seem ironic since I'm particularly bad at understanding sloppy nuanced language, but I was able (with effort) to turn mud into clarity. There's an aspie contribution to the world!

I think that talent can make aspies good teachers in the sense that they can cut out the flowery language, and just state the facts in an orderly manner.

 

[total-recoil]

Lately my intense interest is like a highly driven quest for more knowledge. It involves very late nights with books and detailed study of silicon circuits to the point that every so often I either spot mistakes or discover some deep question to ask.
One thing a bit unusual is my special interest has ramifications so leads me in different related directions. The core interest is fibreglass boat construction but that led me towards engine mechanics, electrics and now electronics and perhaps later physics. I sort of relate all of it together. With engines, I'll list and examine every single bush, roller and bearing and with electronics I'll just want more and more detailed information. I don't know why that is. It got worse since I diagnosed aspergers which sort of gave me an excuse to let obsession
take its course. Just figured it's a better alternative to worry.
You're bang on about clarity. When I explain something I make sure it includes every single step towards understanding and never assume something is known. There is like a red light that goes off when I'm following instructions and something doesn't add up.
My autism aspects I don't know what they are. I think I have HFA so did experience slowness at learning at school. I still learn slowly too. I'm not at all a quick learner but slow and deep and precise so I go over and over the same rules till it sinks in. I move slowly and robotic. I still clench fists in an odd way and have been known to stim. Posture is a bit odd. I also have tantrums with are basically harmless and happen when I'm alone or I may think out verbally when alone.
Whether those latter are by-products of the stress induced by always being different I still don't know. It's a complex situation. I do know my German Shep, though, is pretty much a social disaster when he's with other canines because most of the time he's with me or with other humans. So, he knows how to act with people but not with other dogs. And that's what got me thinking in that direction as to whether we aspies develop strange behaviour patterns as a by-product of just being very different and wired up differently.

It seems the "odd" behaviors are:
1. described only in reference to how they differ from the norm (i.e. they aren't inherently harmful; "weird" is a subjective judgment)

or

2. are a reaction to the resulting isolation (a vicious cycle of isolation/rejection and anger/depression, and faulty attempts to fit in)

or even

3. are a different sort of coping mechanism (i.e. stims, withdrawal).

So I tend to agree that there is nothing wrong. For instance, how can intense interests be a bad thing? The intense concentration that results in proficiency in a subject seems like an advantage, and something most people never attain to. However, one may argue that some interests are really useless. So, I think intense interests can be useful or not, but in either case they are a comfort or coping mechanism.

On the other hand...
There seems to be some evidence that aspies have some deficiencies (I see these in myself), for example, difficulty in grasping oral instructions and nuanced language, as well as lack of intuitive understanding of others' emotions and intentions. [Notice how straightforward everyone's posts here seem to be? I love that].

And yet on the other hand again, if those are deficiencies, neurotypicals have related deficiencies, the main one simply being a failure to say what they mean and say it clearly. I can't tell you how many times in my life I have reinterpreted foggy instructions into step-by-step format (either orally or written) for the benefit of NTs and received much gratitude for it. A former boss used to have me read his work emails and tell me what he actually needed to know. That does seem ironic since I'm particularly bad at understanding sloppy nuanced language, but I was able (with effort) to turn mud into clarity. There's an aspie contribution to the world!

I think that talent can make aspies good teachers in the sense that they can cut out the flowery language, and just state the facts in an orderly manner.

 

[Grubby]

Since aspergers is diagnosed by things we can't do, yes I think there is something wrong with us.

 

[total-recoil]

There is a paradox. There are lots of things I can't do. I can't read subtle, non verbal language very well. I can't somehow connect with people or be accessible to their connecting with me. Can't act normal enough not to be noticed.
Net result is you sometimes get depressed, feel isolated or alienated and you very often suffer a kind of social limbo.
I'm not sure whether that really means there is something wrong with is because the problem is what happens if you somehow "cure" all those behavioural abnormalities? Well, I guess you become like everybody else and just disappear into the mainstream. And then we can calculate the losses which are:
You become far less independently minded so tend to accept mainstream thinking, mainstream conventions, peer pressure and collective values.
You don't think as much or work as hard as you have a bigger social life so spend more time engaging in small talk and at parties.
You risk sacrificing popularity for being honest in self-expression.
In short, you risk ceasing to be you.
I don't really have the answers, though. The paradox of being aspie is you have a degree of very positive traits mixed in with certain negatives that can make your life confusing and unpleasant.

Since aspergers is diagnosed by things we can't do, yes I think there is something wrong with us.

 

[RubenX]

Everything is in the eye of the beholder. A regular NT would say there's something wrong with me because I never know when is my turn to talk. And a typical Aspie could say that there's something wrong with the same NT because he's unable to follow simple & clear instructions like "clean up after your dog".

 

[WildCat]

Depends on who you're asking. By the account of my family and people I've known throughout my life there really wasn't anything wrong with me outside of a few behaviors and personality traits which netted me all sorts of descriptions. Probably had something to do with the fact that I wasn't immediately and outwardly noticeable after so long, or it could have to do more with the severity of my supposed autism that allows me to suppress these behaviors just enough to blend in yet not fully.

There's a catch though: when your behaviors and traits get in the way of your everyday functioning, to the point where you become unable to care or fend for yourself in novel situations, and this is a common occurrence, then I do agree that that IS a problem and one that needs to be dealt with appropriately. If, on the other hand, you just plain suck at socializing but are otherwise able to adapt to everyday life and are doing fairly well for yourself if not others as well, then I fail to notice what the big deal is - it could be everyone else who's got issues.

 

[total-recoil]

The classic weird behavioural trait I exhibit is to sort of go on a walkabout when talking to someone. Seems like during conversation I need to be doing something with my body so I walk about. One friend confessed recently she was really angry on one occasion when she claims I turned my back on her in conversation (while still talking to her). The thing is I never ever realised and now I suppose it's hardly surprising such behaviour did get noticed and certainly would have affected overall acceptance. I still catch myself doing this and it just comes really natural so I suppose it's like a variant of stimming so I pace instead of rock.
Now this does have a funny side I can laugh about but the truth is weird behaviour can get you into all sorts of trouble. I used to get instances of phone calls made to my boss where customers would say they'd rather deal with someone else and then the boss would get annoyed with me. I had no idea about aspergers back then so there was a lot of hurt involved and I couldn't figure out why such issues kept arising. Now I know about aspergers, it does make life far easier to deal with as I now know it's not my fault and that lots of other people have experienced what I experienced.
So, yes, it is a problem. Not so much not being able to take care of yourself but certainly a case of needing to find ways to succeed without being dragged down.

Depends on who you're asking. By the account of my family and people I've known throughout my life there really wasn't anything wrong with me outside of a few behaviors and personality traits which netted me all sorts of descriptions. Probably had something to do with the fact that I wasn't immediately and outwardly noticeable after so long, or it could have to do more with the severity of my supposed autism that allows me to suppress these behaviors just enough to blend in yet not fully.

There's a catch though: when your behaviors and traits get in the way of your everyday functioning, to the point where you become unable to care or fend for yourself in novel situations, and this is a common occurrence, then I do agree that that IS a problem and one that needs to be dealt with appropriately. If, on the other hand, you just plain suck at socializing but are otherwise able to adapt to everyday life and are doing fairly well for yourself if not others as well, then I fail to notice what the big deal is - it could be everyone else who's got issues.

 

[Loomis]

The subject is highly complex. What I find strange is that on the one hand we aspies have a lot of positive traits going for us. Lately this has been brought to attention by the recent nuerodiversity trend and its champions (some psychologists). Such as our concern with social justice, our dedication to science, our creativity and so on.
On the other hand, there is the depression, the stims, the feeling of alienation, the awareness of being left out of group activity, the tantrums and meltdowns.
So, I was thinking about the possibility that the negatively perceived traits may be a by-product of our unusual situation where we could never make a social connection as children so we grew up in a kind of isolation.
Or is the whole Asperger syndrome just a mixed bag of black and white, light and dark? Really I don't know but I like to try and think it through in the hope of making at least some sense of it all.
What I do know is I knew I was different from perhaps aged 4. School became for the most part an alien environment so I'm aware of one very certain, definite reality. That reality is like most here I grew into an adult who is not conditioned socially. Very independent minded, very prepared to go in different directions but also extremely isolated.
Any human being who grows up outside the main group and never connects with the mainstream is certainly going to develop differently. So, you could say maybe that's a part of our seemingly odd behaviour.
On the other hand you could say I still really don't know as much about Aspergers as I hope to know. Except one big positive is since I diagnosed it, the awareness has helped me a lot be kinder towards myself and those around me. It helps to know more so I can see myself a little more as others see me.

I agree with much of what you say. Our nuerobiology is different and this is clearly shown in many research papers. Since we are about 1% of the population we are branded as different. It is very frustrating to read much of the research that describes autism as a severe deficiency with many dysfunctional behaviors. It is also clear that there is a spectrum and at one end of the spectrum are unfortunate individuals with a near total inability to communicate. The end of the spectrum for most on this forum consists of those with high functioning ASD. We are defined by three characteristics, communication problems, repetitive behaviors and difficulty understanding non-verbal social cues.

Because of our inability to intuitively understand the social cues that NTs pick up naturally it is inevitable that we develop some social isolation and this affects the development of our personalities much like the wolves you describe who were socially isolated.

I am convinced ASD is a spectrum and it makes sense to define where we are on the spectrum by the degree we are able to function in the NT world. Like it or not there is no aspieland we can move to.

There also is the co-morbid factor. Just like NTs some of us have borderline personalities or ADHD etc. This complicates our understanding.

There was one interesting theory I read suggesting schizophrenia was at one end of the total human neurobiology spectrum and Autism was at the other end. This is a very appealing idea because if it is true it means the low functioning NTs are schizophrenics.

 

[Tarragon]

Since aspergers is diagnosed by things we can't do, yes I think there is something wrong with us.

A lot (a heck of a lot) of NT's can't do things as well, is there something wrong with them too?

 

[King_Oni]

A lot (a heck of a lot) of NT's can't do things as well, is there something wrong with them too?

But since being NT is "the norm" it's not acknowledged as "something wrong"

It's funny if you think about it; People with asperger's are a minority AND question a lot of things (well, a lot of us do at least), which according to some norms shouldn't be questioned. Doesn't that put "us" in a double disadvantage already?

 

[Tarragon]

But since being NT is "the norm" it's not acknowledged as "something wrong"

It's funny if you think about it; People with asperger's are a minority AND question a lot of things (well, a lot of us do at least), which according to some norms shouldn't be questioned. Doesn't that put "us" in a double disadvantage already?

Aren't people who don't question things at the most serious disadvantage?

 

[King_Oni]

Aren't people who don't question things at the most serious disadvantage?

That depends on perspective

The people I encountered that don't question anything are living happy lives and don't worry as much... don't know if that's a disadvantage as such

 

[Tarragon]

That depends on perspective

The people I encountered that don't question anything are living happy lives and don't worry as much... don't know if that's a disadvantage as such

And the darkest chapters of human history occur when people follow each other like sheep and don't question anything...

Yep, perspective. Er, it's got all abstract all of a sudden - I bring this round to answer the original question of the thread and say that I really don't think there's anything wrong with us! Why can't nt people be a little less in their own world and come over to ours instead? it's certainly a heck of a lot more fun!

 

[Grubby]

Why can't nt people be a little less in their own world and come over to ours instead? it's certainly a heck of a lot more fun!

How is our world more fun? :unsure: