Is this what social deficits feel like?

[AuroraBorealis]

After talking to a friend about job interviews (something that will come up this summer), I feel completely at a social loss for the first time. The way I hear people talk about it and the advice they give, it seems there are all these unspoken rules you just need to know and navigate around. Like: Don't tell them during the interview that you want to work part-time but bring it up only after having worked there for a while. Don't tell them in your application that you can only start at this date but also say that you're available earlier, even if it's not true, because otherwise they won't even consider you. Be honest but at the same time don't. It seems that you shouldn't tell them your wishes for the job but... navigate around them? I don't know how to do that! I always felt socially competent, in fact, my social competence was what always made me doubt the possibility to be on the spectrum. Is this what it feels like? Like there are all these rules but no-one told me and I have no idea how everyone else just... knows? Like there is this whole system around it, and I don't just not know about it, I feel completely unable to act according to it, because how I am supposed to know what is off-putting in a job-interview, and and how else am I supposed to bring it up?

It's not that I'm panicked right now about those future job interviews, although I am nervous about them. I just feel really baffled right now that, apparently, I do have some considerable social deficits in some areas. I just wasn't really aware of them, and they have just been brought to my attention very suddenly.

 

[Judge]

I've always lamented that job interviews for me were always the most stressful social interactions I could have. Looking back and cringing knowing that back in those days I didn't even have a clue I could be autistic, or what it involved relative to interacting with others.

And to think in those days, I'm inclined to think that the whole employment process was easier than it is today.

At least it's something to plan around if and when possible for you.

 

[marc_101]

I don't think it's a social deficit in a clinical sense. It sounds like it's your first job and you're learning things about the current market. I'm older than you and have been in the recruiting side and the job seeking side and now I could give plenty of recommendations about interviewing based on experience and what I have seen.

It would be a social deficit if you had 50 interviews and people have told you what to do and you still fail to grasp how things work or cannot behave in the way you want because emotions get in the way.

I'd talk to more people to learn more.

 

[Mr. Stevens]

I think a lot of job rules probably depend on the field, employer, and individual hiring. Yes, there can be some general rules, but it's not all the same. Also, it's probably better to be honest about what you want--within reason--and find a position to fit those needs. Getting just any job and trying to tweak it afterward doesn't seem like it would work well. Especially if you want part-time work and they want full-time.

 

[Rodafina]

@AuroraBorealis

I think interviewing is an area where people have varied approaches and ideas about what has worked for them as opposed to hard and fast social rules that one would benefit from learning. I suppose it's a good idea to consider tips and advice for interviewing, but getting comfortable with your own way is the most important thing.

I think practice is one of the best ways to learn how to interview and remember that different employers will have different expectations. It's more about authenticity and adaptability than memorizing a bunch of "rules" that someone told you. I think it's important to project confidence and professionalism in whatever way you can do that. Honesty is the simplest route for me and conveys something that I value. It's easier to remember the truth.

 

[Mr. Stevens]

I think practice is one of the best ways to learn how to interview and remember that different employers will have different expectations.

Practice, in particular, is great advice. It helps to create crafted answers which still feel fluid and natural. You can be concise and sound spontaneous. This also helps give confidence, so you feel more in charge of the interview, or at least equal. It gives a better performance and shows the employer that you know you are assessing them, too. That is a great mentality to have. It also shows you can take charge on the job, too, and not just wait to be led. And that you have thoughts and a philosophy on your work.

 

[kriss72]

It might depend on the type of job you are after, but having been on both sides of the table in job interviews, honesty is the most important aspect in my book, it's usually easy to spot when a topic is avoided - and remember it is as much an option for you to learn about the company/job as for the company to learn about you - and it is positive to ask questions about the position, it shows you are genuine interested in the job, but it should be real questions you want to have answered.

Maybe related to this practice thing others have mentioned, take each interview as a learning experience, what are they asking, do they like the way you answer... I have been to so many interviews I kind of know what kind of questions will be asked to the jobs I search for, so over the years, I have learned which answers make them smile and nod, and which makes the manager leave the room - yes tried that too... I also have had question that I never met before or thought about, where I just went "I don't know... I never thought about that" and I kept saying that every time they circled back to it - I was still offered to go to the next round... honesty again...

 

[Hypnalis]

@AuroraBorealis

You're facing something new that's a little outside your comfort zone.

The advice you included in your first post is currently useless: points to "hang" on a framework that doesn't exist yet.
The framework you need to build comprises a set of structured answers to the question:

"What information should I share with an interviewer, and how should I present it?

The hard bit (for everyone, but a little more for us): it's all has to be in terms of the interviewer's wants and needs.

https://www.autismforums.com/threads/job-interview.47435/

 

[Neonatal RRT]

After talking to a friend about job interviews (something that will come up this summer), I feel completely at a social loss for the first time. The way I hear people talk about it and the advice they give, it seems there are all these unspoken rules you just need to know and navigate around. Like: Don't tell them during the interview that you want to work part-time but bring it up only after having worked there for a while. Don't tell them in your application that you can only start at this date but also say that you're available earlier, even if it's not true, because otherwise they won't even consider you. Be honest but at the same time don't. It seems that you shouldn't tell them your wishes for the job but... navigate around them? I don't know how to do that! I always felt socially competent, in fact, my social competence was what always made me doubt the possibility to be on the spectrum. Is this what it feels like? Like there are all these rules but no-one told me and I have no idea how everyone else just... knows? Like there is this whole system around it, and I don't just not know about it, I feel completely unable to act according to it, because how I am supposed to know what is off-putting in a job-interview, and and how else am I supposed to bring it up?

It's not that I'm panicked right now about those future job interviews, although I am nervous about them. I just feel really baffled right now that, apparently, I do have some considerable social deficits in some areas. I just wasn't really aware of them, and they have just been brought to my attention very suddenly.

1. ..."Don't tell them during the interview that you want to work part-time but bring it up only after having worked there for a while."... Question: Was the job not posted as "full-time" or "part-time"? That seems like a very basic thing the employer should disclose on the job posting to eliminate these situations.

2. ...."Don't tell them in your application that you can only start at this date but also say that you're available earlier, even if it's not true, because otherwise they won't even consider you."... It is common professional courtesy to allow the candidate to give their current employer a 2 weeks notice prior to leaving their position, before starting their new job. If you can start immediately because you are currently unemployed, then this is a different situation.

3. ..."Be honest but at the same time don't. It seems that you shouldn't tell them your wishes for the job but... navigate around them? I don't know how to do that! I always felt socially competent, in fact, my social competence was what always made me doubt the possibility to be on the spectrum."... A common mistake is to disclose your need for the job, as it comes off as a form of "weakness" that employers pick up on. Employers want to hire people with inner strength, so it is that employers get really excited when the new candidate actually flips the situation around by interviewing the employer, asking clarifying questions about the company, what are the employer's aspirations for the company, etc. and then describes how they can help the employer in various ways. Basically, approach the interview like you are there to help the employer move the company forward and to improve existing conditions. Impress them with your "go getter" attitude. So, this may take some bit of research ahead of time with you finding out everything you can about the business, who their clients are, etc. Come into the interview with a base of knowledge that demonstrates an interest in the company. Some people are hired not on their qualifications per se, but how they interview, as people want to be around other people with positive attitudes that see potential problems as opportunities to take advantage of or to do things in innovative new ways.

 

[vergil96]

There is already plenty of good advice about how the interview is not only for the employer to accept you, but also for you to learn about the employer. After all, not all jobs are good for everyone, for example you want to work part-time.

However, I think someone might have had in mind the following, telling you not to say you want to work part-time and to say you're available earlier, because of the following:

Like: Don't tell them during the interview that you want to work part-time but bring it up only after having worked there for a while. Don't tell them in your application that you can only start at this date but also say that you're available earlier, even if it's not true, because otherwise they won't even consider you.

The beginning of the application process looks like that: your CV lands on a huge pile of CVs. Then, you are interviewed, but so are plenty of others. If you stand out in a negative manner and outright say you don't fulfill some criterion they have posted, this is going to be a reason for rejection, because they have plenty of people to choose from. But in the end, as House MD said, everybody lies, so people's applications look overly positive with regard to the requirements. If you're honest, it makes the recruiters think you're even worse than what you wrote, it's like grade inflation at some schools.

How true that is in your field, I don't know. That's how it tends to be in my field.

Like there are all these rules but no-one told me and I have no idea how everyone else just... knows?

Forgive my bluntness, but you seem like a not very confident person, most people don't feel like they're lying, they're genuinely overestimating themselves and really believe in all the exaggerations they say. Lots of people promise things and then don't do them, like with being available and working full-time, because they don't think that something might go wrong with it, even if it always goes wrong. So forgive me such a straightforward opinion, but to me it sounds not like a social deficit but having a lower self-esteem or more self-awareness (you self-reflect a lot in your posts) than most people - which isn't a bad thing imo.

So it's not really something that everyone knows and you don't, it's a question of confidence and self-esteem imo.

Once you know that, you can navigate around it - or choose not to and be straightforward. Although job interviews are one of the most stressful and draining interactions in my opinion. But there aren't really right or wrong answers at job interviews, you say what you have to offer, they employer also says what they have to offer, you make an arrangement or you don't. The worst case scenario is if you get so anxious that it worsens your performance or social anxiety gets the best out of you and you won't speak much - so it's important to keep in mind that it isn't really a situation in which you can can mess up and that if something is wrong - it might not be your fault.

For example I have had an experience that the person from HR was rude to me and talked down to me, despite me being polite and nice to her, and I worried a lot that I messed up, but it was in fact the HR person's fault that she wasn't polite.

I always felt socially competent, in fact, my social competence was what always made me doubt the possibility to be on the spectrum.

Same here

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Forgive my bluntness, but you seem like a not very confident person, most people don't feel like they're lying, they're genuinely overestimating themselves and really believe in all the exaggerations they say. Lots of people promise things and then don't do them, like with being available and working full-time, because they don't think that something might go wrong with it, even if it always goes wrong. So forgive me such a straightforward opinion, but to me it sounds not like a social deficit but having a lower self-esteem or more self-awareness (you self-reflect a lot in your posts) than most people - which isn't a bad thing imo.

Thanks for your honesty - I didn't really like reading this, but to some degree, you're probably right. I'm not the most confident person and deal a lot with imposter syndrome, although not to a massive extent, I think. I self-seflect a lot and try to see myself honestly and clearly. But I do like myself.

I'm in medicine and will work as a doctor - because people weren't sure.

The beginning of the application process looks like that: your CV lands on a huge pile of CVs. Then, you are interviewed, but so are plenty of others. If you stand out in a negative manner and outright say you don't fulfill some criterion they have posted, this is going to be a reason for rejection, because they have plenty of people to choose from. But in the end, as House MD said, everybody lies, so people's applications look overly positive with regard to the requirements. If you're honest, it makes the recruiters think you're even worse than what you wrote, it's like grade inflation at some schools

This is actually very helpful and gives me a clearer picture. I did not at all understand why all people would lie about themselves - don't the employer and the employee both benefit from both knowing the facts?
After talking to a few more people, I started to understand that, apparently, on the job market everyone tries to sell themselves, presenting themselves better than they actually are - and a lot of very confident people actually believing these things about themselves. The rest seem to lie, and I just seem to be bad at lying about myself and exaggerating things if I don't see a reason why I should.
I still dislike this - why can't people just be clear and honest - but it gives me more structure to know that "selling myself" is more about getting them to not discard me directly, and that I can be fairly honest (within reason) in an actual interview. At least that's what I got.

Thankfully, in medicine, we're not PR people. There are more geeks, and skills are usually valued, and socially awkward people aren't that rare. I will manage somehow. Until now, things went well in teams, and I have good qualifications.

 

[Misty Avich]

When I was 18 I went for a job interview that was full-time even though I was looking for part-time. A good friend of mine (an NT but whom I trusted) said that when the interviewer asked if I had any questions I should ask them if there's any part-time positions available. I said to her that that probably wasn't a good idea, but my friend encouragingly said that it was worth asking and that it was good to be honest with them. So, when they asked me if I had any questions or enquiries, I asked about a part-time position - which I knew was a big mistake. The two interviewing people looked subtly annoyed and one of them said "well, no, this was advertised as a full-time position, so..." I felt very awkward and embarrassed after that, so I was like, "oh, yes, of course." As you could have probably guessed, I didn't get the job.

Also what employers are clever with is working around the disability protection laws. First, they see Downs syndrome as the only valid neurological disability and tend to hire those people. But if you say you're autistic they tend to avoid hiring you.
So at most interviews employers ask if you have any disabilities or anything, and if you say "yes I'm autistic", there's a high chance they will reject you. But if you didn't say you're autistic and they hire you and then you get into some autism-related difficulties on the job, they can still fire you because they can say "we did ask you if you had any disabilities or challenges at the interview and you said no. So you brought this on yourself."
But being so like 99% of autistic people don't know they're autistic until like age 50, you could say that you didn't know you had autism or that you're not diagnosed and that you only started realising you might have autism when you first started the job.

 

[vergil96]

I didn't really like reading this, but to some degree, you're probably right. I'm not the most confident person and deal a lot with imposter syndrome, although not to a massive extent, I think. I self-seflect a lot and try to see myself honestly and clearly. But I do like myself.

I'm sorry if I made you feel bad, I didn't mean to, I meant the self-confidence in a completely neutral manner, in the sense, it's not a negative trait to not be confident, in my opinion. I'm bad at communicating interpersonal nuance like this one in a delicate manner, especially to pick the right wording or be more descriptive. Like you've said, some people are more introverted and it might come across as not confident regardless of how they feel, but also more reflective, and there are people who are more extroverted, at least in my experience it gets described as "confident", but "confident" doesn't have to be a positive descriptor, like when you meet someone who is very confident about a product they sell, or at least appear this way, but they are making things up to sell it, and when you check the facts, it's easy to see they're dishonest. At least in my experience, "confident" can be an euphemism. I think the truth lies somewhere in between, as usual, some people will be better at sales and public speaking, some will be better at one to one interactions that require more listening such as with a patient.

I still dislike this - why can't people just be clear and honest - but it gives me more structure to know that "selling myself" is more about getting them to not discard me directly, and that I can be fairly honest (within reason) in an actual interview. At least that's what I got.

In my opinion, it's a result of the aggressive dynamic in the job market of fresh graduates I already mentioned - hundreds of CV on the recruiters' desks, tens of interviewed candidates, there is a lot of competition and it's... not exactly civil. (People with more experience seem to find work through connections and to already know the employers and the whole market)

Thankfully, in medicine, we're not PR people. There are more geeks, and skills are usually valued, and socially awkward people aren't that rare. I will manage somehow. Until now, things went well in teams, and I have good qualifications

Exactly. It's a tough moment in career, but it's just a stage, luckily.

Also honestly, I personally look for work by asking people I know and whose opinion I trust, I find the "brute force" method too draining, I handle one on one interactions better. I ask if they know of any suitable job positions in workplaces they can recommend. I prefer to pick my battles. Of course, there still will be some trial and error, but hopefully less of the error part that consists of going to interviews and sending CV to places that would be toxic to some degree or there is some situation going on that they're just hanging out the job posting, but not meaning to hire anyone.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

When I was 18 I went for a job interview that was full-time even though I was looking for part-time. A good friend of mine (an NT but whom I trusted) said that when the interviewer asked if I had any questions I should ask them if there's any part-time positions available. I said to her that that probably wasn't a good idea, but my friend encouragingly said that it was worth asking and that it was good to be honest with them. So, when they asked me if I had any questions or enquiries, I asked about a part-time position - which I knew was a big mistake. The two interviewing people looked subtly annoyed and one of them said "well, no, this was advertised as a full-time position, so..." I felt very awkward and embarrassed after that, so I was like, "oh, yes, of course." As you could have probably guessed, I didn't get the job.

Something like that is exactly what I'm worried about. But my friend advised me to either apply directly for a part-time position, if one is open, and if it's not specified, to not mention it but start full-time, and after working for a certain amount of time I am legally entitled to reducing my hours.

Also what employers are clever with is working around the disability protection laws. First, they see Downs syndrome as the only valid neurological disability and tend to hire those people. But if you say you're autistic they tend to avoid hiring you.
So at most interviews employers ask if you have any disabilities or anything, and if you say "yes I'm autistic", there's a high chance they will reject you. But if you didn't say you're autistic and they hire you and then you get into some autism-related difficulties on the job, they can still fire you because they can say "we did ask you if you had any disabilities or challenges at the interview and you said no. So you brought this on yourself."
But being so like 99% of autistic people don't know they're autistic until like age 50, you could say that you didn't know you had autism or that you're not diagnosed and that you only started realising you might have autism when you first started the job.

I haven't even thought about this part. Also, where I live, I don't know if employers (are allowed to) ask that during the interview. I will think about this when it draws closer.

I'm sorry if I made you feel bad, I didn't mean to, I meant the self-confidence in a completely neutral manner, in the sense, it's not a negative trait to not be confident, in my opinion. I'm bad at communicating interpersonal nuance like this one in a delicate manner, especially to pick the right wording or be more descriptive.

Oh, don't worry about it, sometimes it's okay to say uncomfortable things if they're important to hear As for the last sentence, I believe you're all but alone with this one here. People will tell you if they don't understand, and are usually way more understanding about misunderstandings than what I've experienced in the "outside world".

 

[paloftoon]

Some potentially helpful thoughts to help you navigate what you want to:

1. If you're not sure how to respond, just say you are not sure what you want besides to work with their company and you want to consider all options and see what they are offering you first. Then, you can see if you have a part time or full time offer(s).
Also, some jobs that you apply for already tell you beforehand if you are going for a part time or a full time position.

2. I struggle with this one, but try to always stay positive in your answers unless you're specifically asked to be critical or negative. Be creative and offer suggestions of how you could be integrated positively with the company if they choose you. Remember, it's about selling yourself. You can tell them something like you can get the job done well and consider other work related side things if it fits in with their work culture (side things are usually things that are related to volunteering work)