It's a Struggle to Even Introduce Myself to a Woman...

[CJO1991]

Hello everyone. This is my first post in the "Love, Relationships, and Dating" section. Sorry in advance for the length. I tried to redact it as much as possible.

Here's my situation: In the last few years, I've made a ton of progress with A.S. Not sure if it was the right approach or not, but what I did was I stopped trying to force myself to approach people. Instead I focused on making myself approachable by doing things such as always being well-groomed, well-dressed, looking happy, and making a special effort to have good eye contact, posture, facial gestures, etc. This works pretty well for me in most aspects, as I can make friends in all new situations I go to, even if it takes a while. Because I always let extroverts approach me, and I've done enough personal experimentation to know what works for me, in terms of getting pass the difficult ice-breaking stage.

My problem is that with women, some approach me, some don't, and whenever there's a girl I would like to meet (whether just to introduce myself or to gauge compatibility,) I find it impossible. I would prefer to take a good punch instead of merely striking up a social conversation with a woman my own age. I have no issues with business conversations, because I don't say anything more than is needed; sometimes they make an effort to give the business conversation a social ting, but it's frustrating hoping that girl you want to talk to will say something to you. Now I can strike up a conversation with a male stranger; I don't really like to and would prefer that the other person do it, but I can do it. With women, like I said, I'd rather a punch.

In the interest of full disclosure, I've had sex with a handful of women, but it's always happened when we were both wasted at a party and hooked up. I've gone out on dates, but never had a girlfriend. I've asked a girl out before, but it's only when they've blatantly asked me to ask them out, or they've asked me out. One more thing: If a girl introduces herself to me, I can generally converse well with her, as long as she isn't too aggressive or flirtatious, as that might make me a little bit nervous. I just get paralyzed starting a conversation myself.

Here's what I feel: I have this enormous fear of being misconstrued. For example, even something as simple as introducing myself to a new coworker is impossible because my mind will be filled with thoughts like:
1: Will she think I'm trying to flirt with her?
2: Is she genuinely being nice to me? Or am I annoying her, but she's just being polite?
3: Does she even want to talk to me? Or am I just another "thirsty" man in her eyes?

I know it's irrational, and it really hurts me, because I know I'm treating a lot of nice girls like I would treat a poisonous snake, but it's how I feel inside. I have this fear that if I strike up a conversation with a girl, she will judge me like a Drill Sergeant, mentally critiquing everything I do, every word I say, every cue I send out, etc. I have this image of every girl having dozens of men pursuing her, and any gesture of friendship I send out will be misconstrued.

It's really frustrating. I've made so much progress in other areas of managing my A.S., but I would rather so many things than merely introduce myself socially to a woman. I try not to put myself down too much with regards to my social problems, but I can't help but to do so in this regard. I might feel a little bit uncomfortable introducing myself to other people, but what I feel when I want to introduce myself to a girl my age is a genuine fear. I don't know what to do...

 

[Ereth]

I have this image of every girl having dozens of men pursuing her, and any gesture of friendship I send out will be misconstrued.

The first thing you need to do is get rid of that image. Women are perfectly okay with having male friends.

And really, they're not "girls," they're women---and they can have the same problems with social anxiety as you.

You also need to stop putting pressure on yourself to find a girlfriend. It'll happen in its own time. When you talk to someone, talk to her because you want to talk to her. You can't think about her being "pursued." Just focus on having a casual conversation.

If your anxiety is truly terrible, I suggest seeing a psychologist if you aren't already doing so.

 

[Ereth]

Wait, what the heck?

You say "Avoid male dating authors that treat women like conquests," etc. but then provide links to the Wikipedia articles about books called The Game? I'm afraid I don't understand.

If your goal is to find a girlfriend, then finding a mentor to get you on that path is a good bet.

He doesn't necessarily need a mentor. What he needs to do first and foremost is address his anxiety and self-confidence issues. There's no sense in telling him how to prepare for the dating scene if he's going to go into a panic every time he goes out.

Read between the lines, avoid taking advantage of women, always respect and wish a woman well even if she rejects you, be yourself and look for a keeper/long term partner. Good luck!

Good advice, but I would add that rejected advances should not be personalized. If someone has no success, it's not necessarily because there's something wrong with him or her or because the person doing the rejecting is somehow a horrible human being. There is always a possibility that two people just won't click. It happens. Furthermore, it's unwise to tell somebody to look for The One right off the bat. Especially when the person in question's not used to dating.

Just focus on finding someone you like spending time with, CJ.

+++It was proven on E HarmonyAdvice forum, POF forum, Facebook Singles groups, Yahoo dating groups and other dating forums [Singlesnet.com?] when women were asked if they wanted to date a "nice" guy or a "bad" boy. The overwhelming positive response for the bad boy with an "edge" and the overwhelming rejection by thousands of women towards nice or good guys was astounding! The majority of women stomped "nice, good and sensitive" guys into the internet dust.

And how large was the sample size here? I don't see how this is proof of anything about dating preferences for women as a group--just on those forums. A truly comprehensive survey would include people who do not use the Internet to date and would cover the desired location. So even a U.S.-wide survey could only be considered a reflection of one country at any given moment in time.

This was proven repeatedly on many mainstream dating forums & Hollywood movies where leading male actors were macho, bold & usually outgoing etc. Romance novels usually have featured the same type of males. At least when I was growing up.

Hollywood films and romance novels have traditionally featured idealized depictions of courtship, love, and marriage. They do not in any way, shape or form reflect real preferences. They are fantasies. People enjoy them because that's what they are---a chance to explore impossibly perfect scenarios. But admiring an actor playing a role in a film is not the same as thinking about the kind of real, flesh-and-blood person one might want to date.

 

[Sev]

There is a scientific logical proven+++ successful way to approach dating via males approaching females. It's a numbers game-ask out 100 and you might get a 2%-4% response rate. Higher depending on youth, tallness, good looks, money, power, stature etc. So...now you know for the male, it's a numbers game!!!!!!!!!!!!

Next step is to analyze female dating psychology.*** Get a hobby, get good at it [most women like men who are passionate about something] and practice saying hello to women offline [most women prefer an outgoing male to an introverted one.] Exercise & learn some self defense [for self esteem.] Get some "game" in your dating strategy. Be careful, there's some online male dating guru imposters selling "getting game" strategies that border on misogynistic viewpoints.

If your goal is to find a girlfriend, then finding a mentor to get you on that path is a good bet. Avoid male dating authors that treat women like conquests, objects & 1 night stands. Been there, done that and still struggle with it.

-Former dating author, dating moderator, dating website marketer, dating membership recruiter, dating data miner, researcher etc. The titles change as I remember more of what I used to do!!!!!!!!!!!!!

***read "The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists" investigative reporter by Neil Strauss

The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Rules of the Game: Master the Art of Attraction in 30 Days - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Getting Game strategies evolved to Natural Game which I haven't researched much of

Read between the lines, avoid taking advantage of women, always respect and wish a woman well even if she rejects you, be yourself and look for a keeper/long term partner. Good luck!

+++It was proven on E HarmonyAdvice forum, POF forum, Facebook Singles groups, Yahoo dating groups and other dating forums [Singlesnet.com?] when women were asked if they wanted to date a "nice" guy or a "bad" boy. The overwhelming positive response for the bad boy with an "edge" and the overwhelming rejection by thousands of women towards nice or good guys was astounding!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The majority of women stomped "nice, good and sensitive" guys into the internet dust.

This was proven repeatedly on many mainstream dating forums & Hollywood movies where leading male actors were macho, bold & usually outgoing etc. Romance novels usually have featured the same type of males. At least when I was growing up...

PS: I'm not here to argue with anyone. Feel free to argue but I probably won't answer you. It's not worth my stress. Mother nature wired female and male animals including humans for millions of years.

Oh please lets not bring Neil Strauss into this...
I can already smell the controversy and moral issues that will haunt this thread.
I certainly wouldn't say his methods are ineffective, I would say the opposite, however, look where "the game" left him.

 

[nowwhat]

This is funny. Me gets popcorn....

The value of this forum, and the reason you posed your question here, is that there are different opinions and positions you get to evaluate, and then use your own intelligence and free agency to choose. Don't let anyone tell you what to think. You can pretty much discount out of hand anyone that takes that tack, IMO.

I am socially clueless, but fairly high functioning. I was also quite good looking when younger, so I have had a bit of experience with relationships, and a fair amount of attention from women. I've been married nearly a quarter century now, and am now tanned, wrinkled, liverspotted, cynical, crusty, hirstute and generally look like crap, so it's a good thing I got married at some point.

Look, CJ. I see a ton of overthinking in your post. The questions you pose are the same ones that NT's grapple with, except they overcome with them by giving it a go and seeing what happens. In other words, they are questions that are only answered by taking risks. I guarantee you will mostly fail. But sometimes you will succeed. There is no way around that part, so quit being scared and thinking about everything and get to it. You will be learning all the time. Let me make a suggestion that will reduce the complexity of your problem by several orders of magnitude. You can't be anyone but yourself, so what if you forgot all about trying to be what women are statistically looking for, and decided to be patient until you find ones that like what you already happen to be? Much simpler, if less gratifying and productive. This simple, guile-less approach takes time, so in the meantime, enjoy just talking and relating to women, magical creatures that they are? Enjoy the ride and remember that most of this is out of your control anyway.

I've said it poorly, the song does a much better job:

 

[Ereth]

The value of this forum, and the reason you posed your question here, is that there are different opinions and positions you get to evaluate, and then use your own intelligence and free agency to choose. Don't let anyone tell you what to think. You can pretty much discount out of hand anyone that takes that tack, IMO.

For the record, I'm not telling him what to think. I'm making suggestions about how to proceed. True, my language isn't ambivalent, but I don't mean to do anything but offer some advice.

women, magical creatures that they are

Am I right in assuming this is a joke? If so, fine. If not, well, we're not magical. Sorry, folks.

 

[Ereth]

Shalom,

I agree to disagree. I purposely supplied a link that was pro-woman [Wikipedia.] Seems you didn't read the link's critical judgement. But if you have better advice for the many autistic males who come here and complain about the same dating problems, then have at it. Will not argue any further.

Kind regards.

Who's arguing? I merely responded to your post in a way I considered appropriate.

I might be an idiot, but the critical judgment seems like it's unrelated to your promotion of these materials. It exists as part of the Wikipedia article because all decent Wikipedia articles provide information about the reception and criticism of something, if applicable.

If you have to purposely supply a link that is only tangentially "pro-woman," as you call it (and not because the book itself is pro-woman), to flesh out your post in support of these resources, then it might be worthwhile to reconsider your support of them.

 

[Sev]

Wait, what the heck?

You say "Avoid male dating authors that treat women like conquests," etc. but then provide links to the Wikipedia articles about books called The Game? I'm afraid I don't understand.

My thoughts exactly.
Furthermore, I personally feel that techniques and methods regarding the social manipulation of others (which is exactly what material like The Game suggests) should have no place in a friendly environment such as AC - leave stuff like that to the PUA forums.
CJ, I would highly suggest to not even go near anything like 'The Game' or anything similar. These are just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Ereth]

What studies have you conducted on this subject matter and for how many years? How many dating websites have you researched per this subject matter? How many autistic and shy men have you interviewed to come up with your conclusions? How many tens of thousands of women have you interviewed on this subject matter?

I spent 10 years + doing my research.

That's a straw man and everyone knows it. I don't need to have done studies and surveys to know that you've been talking out of both sides of your mouth in giving dating advice to CJ (I mean nothing personal by this; it's just what you're doing) and that polling a comparatively small population on the Internet about dating preferences does not, under any circumstances, speak for all women's preferences. I'd say the same thing if you chose to ask men about women, or women about women, or men about men, or whatever.

And romance as depicted in popular culture---whether it's on film or in a book---is not an accurate depiction of anything but the chosen fantasies of the day.

Finally, I've been nothing but polite, so on't get upset with me because I happen to be good at exposing the flaws in your argument. I am also allowed to post freely here. If the moderators tell me to stop, that's their prerogative, but until that happens, I'll do as I please. I've done nothing wrong.

CJ, I am so sorry your thread's gotten derailed like this, and I apologize for the part I played in that. I hope you're able to glean some valuable advice from the posts made here.

Best wishes to all.

 

[Brent]

Sparticus this is a public forum where anyone can respond to anyone else's post as long as they do so in a respective manner. Ereth has been nothing but polite in her responses while disagreeing with you.

With that said, lets please cease the current discussion direction and let the OP chime in if they still need input.

 

[Ereth]

Not a joke. I would not joke with you as I've noticed it's a waste. It requires a bit of creativity and imagination to process appropriately. Also it's a commonly used expression that has a generally understood meaning and tone. Have someone else explain it to you, and maybe you won't find it so offensive, as no such offense was intended.

Um, sorry? I didn't mean it in an offensive way. I actually, truly did not know whether you meant it as a joke, 'cause, y'know, I'm autistic, and sometimes I have a problem with jokes---especially on the Internet, where facial expressions, body language, and vocal tone do not exist without a webcam and/or microphone. Please do forgive me for seeking clarification.

Also not directed at you. Mind your business. It might come as a shock to you, but not everyone here agrees with you or sees things your way, nor is anyone required to. Is it your job to attempt to correct everything here you do not like? How much are they paying you? You should get a raise, cause your doing a very thorough job. Put me on ignore if you don't like it.

You say "mind your business," but frankly, this is a public forum, and if I want to comment on something that's been said by somebody else, I should be able to do so freely, just like anybody else here. I've done nothing to you, and I've never once claimed that everyone does, or should, agree with me. I may seem opinionated---and I suppose there's a thin line between passionate interest in a discussion or debate and being opinionated which I regretfully have a habit of crossing---but at least I don't tell people to shut up or imply that they dislike everything they attempt to address in their posts. I state my views honestly and openly. I'm sure most everyone here has noticed this by now. I won't apologize for that. It's part of who I am as a person. But I will not ignore you, as that would be a childish way to handle this situation. All the same, I appreciate your suggestion.

I'm officially done with this thread unless the OP would like more advice. Sorry about that, Brent (and CJ, again).

 

[Sparticus]

Brent I deleted my posts. They weren't adding any value to this thread. Thanks.

 

[Stacey]

I can introduce myself to anybody, from the bin man to the CEO. But it's the 'way' I do it. I'm as short and abrupt during a greeting, as I am when departing. It's short, sweet and over. I get given phone numbers quite frequently, I politely take them...but I never call. I've usually made up my mind within minutes, as to whether or not I wish to meet. I find the whole routine of 'lets get to know each other' exhausting.

However if I'm interested I'll make a conserted effort to send a text. If the person seems clingy, I wouldn't cope, so I entertain the idea no further. I'd burn out.
I've been proposed to twice. I chose to flatly refuse the 1st. The 2nd I suggested seperate bedrooms. That immediately squashed it, (I was relieved).

I've seriously asked myself if the problem is that i'm not attracted to 'men' . I'm certain I'm straight. I think i'd be as anti social with a woman. I'm one of those infuriating people who declare...'it's me, not you'.