"lack of empathy"

[DogwoodTree]

Does this phrase bother anyone else? I feel like it's saying that I don't care. I DO care...I just have a hard time seeing things and understanding the world the way more "normal" people do.

But then...they have a hard time--and often not much desire even--seeing and understanding things the way I do. So maybe they have even greater "lack of empathy"? J/k

Seriously, though, I think the people on this board don't have any trouble at all understanding each other most of the time...we speak the same "language". If a non-English speaking person had a terrible understanding of what I'm saying in English, I don't accuse him of not caring or even of being unable to understand. I simply realize we speak different languages. Seems like the same standard should apply to the way peoples' brains are wired to perceive and process the world?

There has to be a better way of describing this trait without making it sound like we simply can't connect with NTs. It's a "lost in translation" phenomenon that goes BOTH ways, not a sensitivity failure on our part alone.

 

[King_Oni]

Well, it would seem that something like speaking a different language has less of a "taboo" perhaps... it's something everyone can understand since there are so many languages, yet empathy, for many people seems to be an "auto-include" regardless on what your background is. Hence "lack of empathy" for a lot of people just sounds like you don't care and you don't try hard enough to care about it.

I do agree though; it's an interesting comparison.

In a sense it would become the "immovable object vs. the irresistable force" seemingly we don't nudge with our lack of empathy (something which one might argue, we can't do a lot about; except for faking it of course) while others with empathy will not have any of that "I don't have much empathy". Clearly there are no winners, yet if you break it down, and you've pointed this out already, the fact that they can't imagine someone lacking empathy in some form doesn't really show great empathic skills either, hah.

 

[paloftoon]

Sometimes, yes, it's not understanding social cues well. Sometimes though, it can be matter of how emotions are not always rational either. Life is not easy, and if it is, either that person is in a fantasy world or very naive. That goes for NT or non-NT alike.

 

[DogwoodTree]

If you make the assumption that most aspies, just like most humans, DO care (or would, had we received enough of the empathic understanding and caring growing up that nt's get from people who think like THEY do), you can think of it more in terms of paradigm rather than level of caring.

Look at the people here. There's LOTS of caring going on...lots of support and empathy. But we all function from very similar paradigmatic understandings of the world. For the most part, there is no lack of empathy here. We're quick to emphasize with each other's struggles, confusions, and frustrations, as well as victories and insights. We think the same way, so our caring comes through to each other (as much as any other online forum I've ever been a part of, anyway). Here we can be authentic because here we all speak the same paradigmatic language, and it's a fairly simple process to understand each other and respond appropriately ACCORDING TO OUR PARADIGM.

In the outside world, they speak a different paradigm. It's not that we don't care about their life experiences, we just don't speak that language. We would come across as more caring if our behavior was better understood, or if we were able to better understand THEIR paradigm in order to communicate the way they do. If someone could TRANSLATE...the level of caring and empathy could be more effectively communicated in BOTH directions.

Granted, there's a lot of bitterness here and learned helplessness, but it's not an inherent aspie trait. Rather, it's a secondary trait from a lifetime of speaking the wrong paradigm and not knowing how to fix that. But most nt's haven't learned our paradigm, either, despite many who make the effort. So it's like there's this gap, this chasm, between the two paradigms that neither side is particularly adept at crossing. Doesn't mean one side CARES less just because there are fewer of us. It's just a very difficult translation barrier to traverse.

Again, it's not a lack of CARING on EITHER side. This isn't an issue of empathy, or lack thereof. It's an issue of mistranslation...truly, the caring on both sides is just "lost in translation."

That's my hypothesis anyway. I DO care about the nt's in my life. But the way I communicate it...it doesn't seem to come across to them. So I end up giving up on all but the most important relationships. And I've found over the past few months that many of them care deeply about me...But I never perceived that because they didn't communicate it in MY paradigm language, and not knowing my dx at the time, I didn't realize it was a miscommunication issue rather than a they-don't-care-about-me issue.

 

[DogwoodTree]

...the fact that they can't imagine someone lacking empathy in some form doesn't really show great empathic skills either, hah.

I guess what I'm proposing is that we DON'T lack empathy...we just show it differently. Between us, we perceive it just fine. But they don't catch our expressions of empathy because they're no more capable of understanding our paradigm than we are of understanding theirs (in fact, because of spending a lifetime of trying to live in their world...we're actually BETTER at adapting to a different paradigm (i.e., empathy) because we've had more practice).

Someone who is bilingual where English is their second language may not speak English as well as I do, but I can't speak THEIR language at all! If I judge them only against native English speakers, they look like they have some kind of language dysfunction. But they're not dysfunctional at all. In fact, they understand language much better than I do because they've been able to incorporate two completely different languages into their communication skills set, which gives them insights that I can't even imagine if I've only ever spoken English.

 

[bentHnau]

Nts do a lot of faking, hiding their true feelings, and acting completely differently towards people for trifling reasons like their place in their social hierarchy. It's difficult to empathize when one first has to cut through all that b.s.ing to find the genuine feelings with which to empathize.

 

[DogwoodTree]

Nts do a lot of faking, hiding their true feelings, and acting completely differently towards people for trifling reasons like their place in their social hierarchy. It's difficult to empathize when one first has to cut through all that b.s.ing to find the genuine feelings with which to empathize.

But they don't understand our perspective any more than we understand them. Seems to me like the "lack of empathy" (i.e., ability to understand another's feelings, thoughts, or attitudes) goes both ways equally as much.

 

[May Black]

That's my hypothesis anyway. I DO care about the nt's in my life. But the way I communicate it...it doesn't seem to come across to them. So I end up giving up on all but the most important relationships. And I've found over the past few months that many of them care deeply about me...But I never perceived that because they didn't communicate it in MY paradigm language, and not knowing my dx at the time, I didn't realize it was a miscommunication issue rather than a they-don't-care-about-me issue.

I'm not sure if it's solely about being wired differently. I'd say many of you have quite easy time empathizing with me or Nurseangela on those forums. Maybe written communication works better since we're forced to verbally express things we'd normally express non verbally.

To me, empathy is about the ability to put yourself in the other person's situation to the point where you're able to project their feeling on yourself as accurately as possible. I empathizes with people based on an analyzes of the situation more than anything. Unless I disagree with them, in which case I'll have very hard time to relate.

 

[icesyckel]

Sympathy is about caring for others and their thoughts/feelings.

Empathy in a clinical sense is just about being able to intuitively understand sense what another person is thinking/feeling without having to be told in precise terms. Obviously, writing things out can force people be clearer, and so empathy is not as important on forums such as this.

One reason I hate the character Sheldon on BBT is that he not only lacks empathy but also sympathy. Even after someone's feelings and thoughts have been made clear - he doesn't seem to care. He doesn't need to empathize when the thoughts/feelings at issue are made crystal clear. However, his lack of caring/sympathy is not part of the spectrum. Being on the spectrum doesn't make you an ass - being an ass makes you an ass.

Now, lack of empathy can make us seem insensitive due to lack of understanding. Once we do understand, though, how we respond is a function of choice.

However, @May, I do believe the lack of empathy is entirely about how we are "wired."

 

[Ereth]

I've said it elsewhere and I might as well say it here: we don't necessarily lack empathy, though we may have trouble communicating it. Big difference.

 

[icesyckel]

Check this out:

6. Myth: They lack empathy.

Fact: “Empathy is a complicated concept,” Gaus said. Some researchers have divided empathy into four components: two called “cognitive empathy” and two called “emotional empathy.” People with Asperger’s struggle with cognitive empathy but have no problem with emotional empathy, she said.

Take the above example: The person with Asperger’s isn’t able to intellectually infer that the co-worker who lost their cat might be sad, especially in the moment. They might realize this hours later at home. “But when they do know the person is sad, they are able to feel that sadness without any difficulty, perhaps even more intensely than typical people,” she said. In other words, “they have difficult expressing empathy in a conventional way.” It’s a problem of communication, not empathy, she said.

From this site. So, really, it depends on the TYPE of empathy we are discussing. Cognitive empathy is an issue, and emotional empathy (which is more like sympathy) is not. It might take me a minute or two to understand what someone else is thinking or feeling, but when I do, I know how to relate to those emotions (well, mostly I do).

Another interesting article is here. (It is how we are "wired," lol.)

 

[DogwoodTree]

I don't know if it's the way I was raised, then, or if it's just autism causing my specific set of abnormal traits.

I actually put myself "in other people's shoes" all the time. Growing up in a hostile environment with mentally ill parents, it was a survival mechanism. I learned to interpret the world based on their "rules for reality" so I could protect myself. Some of that was autistically motivated because my goals (minimize touch, maximize alone time) were dissimilar to what more normal people might have wanted (such as my sisters).

Now out in the real world with people who are mentally healthier, I'm struggling to learn the new rules. But as I learn them, I make the effort to understand life from their perspective using their rules for what reality is like. To the degree I don't understand their rules of interpreting reality, is the degree I can't empathize with their perspective.

So then my question is...what if I was in a room full of people who use the same rules that I do to interpret reality? What if I had spent my entire life with people like that? There would no longer be this paradigm barrier, and in fact, a lot of my priorities (keep myself covered, learn instead to interpret life the way others do) and the resulting abnormalities might not exist, at least not in a dysfunctional way.

NTs say, "you don't understand my rules for interpreting reality, so you lack empathy." But they don't understand my rules, either. That's partly because I don't share them, since I'm in such a minority, but that doesn't make my interpretation of reality any less valid or reasonable within my paradigm. It's just hard for an nt to understand because it's so different from the "norm" and from what they're used to...Which is what we here on this board have spent our whole lives coping with.

 

[DogwoodTree]

Referencing the example of someone who lost a cat and is sad...what if the person in the example grew up in a culture where they eat cats and view them the same way we view cows. Very few people would see a cow as something to be attached to, so we wouldn't immediately make the connection that someone might be sad that a cow died. We may have thought, "oh, now they have a freezer full of beef." Does that mean there's a lack of empathy? A lack of the ability to see the world from the grieving person's perspective? No, there's just a different paradigm at work, and the need for increased communication.

Once the "foreigner" is informed of our culture's value for cats as pets, they can somewhat relate. They may still think it's strange (just like many of us would think it's strange to eat cats), and may never care for cats themselves, but they can empathize with the person's sense of loss. Just like I can empathize with an nt's feeling of rejection with someone who didn't make the eye contact that the nt felt was appropriate...But that doesn't mean I suddenly start valuing eye contact.

Different paradigm. Communicate across the paradigm gap, and we can relate to each other's feelings. But neither side should be required to adopt the other's paradigm to be labeled functional. We're a multicultural society...we can get this. What's wrong with being a multi-neurological society, too? (rhetorical question, I know)

 

[icesyckel]

@Dogwood,

I think what the above article describes as "emotional empathy" (or what I think of as sympathy) is what you are doing when you express that you can understand others' emotions/thoughts/feelings.

Semantics aside, this is not the sort of empathy or sympathy we lack. It's why I always hate the Sheldon character on BBT (since he propagates this myth). It is our cognitive empathy that is impaired - being able to intuitively know what someone else is subjectively feeling/thinking in the heat of the moment without having to be told or have it explained.

There appear to be varying degrees of impairment, and some on the spectrum have learned coping mechanisms that work well. However, it isn't that you or I cannot appreciate others' feelings. It is that sometimes we don't immediately relate to what they are thinking/feeling without having it explained to us. There have been actual neurological studies explaining that those on the spectrum have different neural circuitry that leads to this. However, we can still understand others' feelings/emotions, even when we ourselves wouldn't necessarily have the same emotions in response to the same stimuli. It just might require more explanation and consideration for us than for NT's. Also, I suspect it would be easier for you to intuit things around others like you, as it is for me.

 

[DogwoodTree]

Semantics aside, this is not the sort of empathy or sympathy we lack. It's why I always hate the Sheldon character on BBT (since he propagates this myth).

agreed

It is our cognitive empathy that is impaired - being able to intuitively know what someone else is subjectively feeling/thinking in the heat of the moment without having to be told or have it explained.

<snip>

Also, I suspect it would be easier for you to intuit things around others like you, as it is for me.

This is my point. We're the ones with the label because the only "culture" we're tested on is the NT one.

If we were tested on our own "culture"...our ability to intuit the feelings and thoughts of other aspies...we'd do just fine.

And if an NT was tested on our aspie "culture"...the ability to intuit the feelings and thoughts of an aspie...they would show approximately the same level of "inability" with us that we do with them.

The "lack of empathy" is in the nature of the differences (paradigm gap), not in the nature of a dysfunction (inability to do the skill at all).

 

[icesyckel]

This is my point. We're the ones with the label because the only "culture" we're tested on is the NT one.

I agree that this is definitely affecting the outcomes. I suspect that testing aspie on aspie would produce different results.

If we were tested on our own "culture"...our ability to intuit the feelings and thoughts of other aspies...we'd do just fine.

Just speaking for myself, I would not. I find it easier to mentally sort through what another aspie is thinking/feeling, but it doesn't just come to me intuitively like a reflex. I still have to use my head - just nowhere to the same extent. If you look at that second link I posted, we actually process this sort of information differently neurologically.

Also, communication here is only so useful as data - I also understand NT's better when they write/type. It eliminates a number of variables involved in oral communication AND allows for me to take my time. I am not intuiting anything here - I am reading.

That said, I do agree that the idea I cannot appreciate and relate to what another human being is feeling , whether NT or aspie, is utter BS. It just sometimes takes me a bit longer (or a clearer explanation) to arrive at what it is they are feeling before I relate to it... more so with NT's than aspies.

And if an NT was tested on our aspie "culture"...the ability to intuit the feelings and thoughts of an aspie...they would show approximately the same level of "inability" with us that we do with them.

I have no data with which to analyze or test this hypothesis, but it does seem sound/reasonable that they would have some difficulty in the reverse situation.

 

[Judge]

It is discouraging to think of conclusions made about Aspies regarding empathy may be based largely on real-time verbal communications. In this respect it's easy to see how our ability to empathize may be totally misunderstood.

So many of us have "obstacles" of varying degrees in conversing with people in real-time.

 

[icesyckel]

It is discouraging to think of conclusions made about Aspies regarding empathy may be based largely on real-time verbal communications. In this respect it's easy to see how our ability to empathize may be totally misunderstood.

So many of us have "obstacles" of varying degrees in conversing with people in real-time.

I agree. That's what I think is the largest difference between "cognitive" and "emotional" empathy - you don't use cognitive to the same degree in written communications (if at all). Most of us seem to have little if any issues with emotional empathy, which if impaired isn't an aspie thing.

 

[Ste11aeres]

Tony Atwood wrote somewhere that Hans Asperger had noted that children with AS had a lack of "demonstrated empathy".
Atwood said these words of Asperger's are sometimes "misinterpreted" (his word, not mine) as meaning that the person with AS doesn't care about people. Atwood said what it really means is that such a person (who does care about others) might have difficulty understanding/knowing how to handle with their own emotions and those of others.

 

[Judge]

What may be in our hearts doesn't instinctively project into words or physical gestures. And only ourselves know what is truly in our hearts.

Small wonder I get confused over my own empathy at times. I just can't process it on someone elses terms simply because it's expected otherwise.