Poor social/communication skills, NT's, and isolation

[s704m]

Hi, this has been building up with me for a while, and I'm not sure when it "started" (noticed it getting worse). I assume the pandemic issue (past two years) has intensified it for me, but ....

I've been having a helluva time understanding *anything* neurotypicals say anymore, and trying to understand and be understood (or even listened to) by my family has become a nightmare. I am so careful and particular in my word choices, as it is so easy for what I say to be misunderstood or offensive to NT's. Even so, I'm in more arguments than ever lately over something I said -- or something they said that I didn't understand, so I ask them to explain, which irritates them even more. I used to be able to decode them at least a little, but much of it sounds like gibberish or garbled code to me now. Some more than others.

Over time, people have seemed to be shutting me out -- of conversations, discussion threads, even when I'm in the room and physically in the middle of the conversation. Even worse is when the discussion includes or involves me, and they are talking about me like I'm not there.

All of this is leaving me feeling more depressed, hyper-anxious, and increasingly invisible. Isolated and deeply lonely in a way that I can't describe (I lack the language for it).

I want to push back against this, except that my awful communication skills are part of what got me into this mess, and I don't have access to services that could have helped me with this. My past experience with therapists and counselors has *not* been positive. I am mostly nonverbal by choice and difficulty (also keeps me out of trouble). However, this has also caused me deepening isolation, loneliness, and worsened my already poor social and communication skills. Unfortunately, NT's tend to associate "nonverbal" with "stupid" and "no feelings".

Has anyone else experienced something like this? If you have criticism, please be gentle, as I'm in a very painful place for now -- so I'd prefer suggestions or ideas, not criticism.

 

[Suzette]

Issues like you describe are very familiar to me in context of my family. Not understanding one another just seems to go along with "family".

I will tell my mother point blank "I am coming to visit for two weeks" and when I arrive she will say "I didn't think you meant two weeks literally!" And say it with such a tone to suggest I said it wrong.

There are times, especially when dealing with family, I just say nothing. I have learned to put all plans in writing and demand the same back and not appologize for either. My mother hates that because then she has to keep her promises and can't blame her inattention on me.

Family is weird because, like a play, everyone expects to have certain lines and roles and most people don't want to deviate from those lines or roles. But we constantly challenge them to not be lazy and often they don't like that. That is too bad because they miss out on genuine connection. Not just with n.d. folk like us, but with themselves too.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

Hi, this has been building up with me for a while, and I'm not sure when it "started" (noticed it getting worse). I assume the pandemic issue (past two years) has intensified it for me, but ....

I've been having a helluva time understanding *anything* neurotypicals say anymore, and trying to understand and be understood (or even listened to) by my family has become a nightmare. I am so careful and particular in my word choices, as it is so easy for what I say to be misunderstood or offensive to NT's. Even so, I'm in more arguments than ever lately over something I said -- or something they said that I didn't understand, so I ask them to explain, which irritates them even more. I used to be able to decode them at least a little, but much of it sounds like gibberish or garbled code to me now. Some more than others.

Over time, people have seemed to be shutting me out -- of conversations, discussion threads, even when I'm in the room and physically in the middle of the conversation. Even worse is when the discussion includes or involves me, and they are talking about me like I'm not there.

All of this is leaving me feeling more depressed, hyper-anxious, and increasingly invisible. Isolated and deeply lonely in a way that I can't describe (I lack the language for it).

I want to push back against this, except that my awful communication skills are part of what got me into this mess, and I don't have access to services that could have helped me with this. My past experience with therapists and counselors has *not* been positive. I am mostly nonverbal by choice and difficulty (also keeps me out of trouble). However, this has also caused me deepening isolation, loneliness, and worsened my already poor social and communication skills. Unfortunately, NT's tend to associate "nonverbal" with "stupid" and "no feelings".

Has anyone else experienced something like this? If you have criticism, please be gentle, as I'm in a very painful place for now -- so I'd prefer suggestions or ideas, not criticism.

Hello s704m,

Even being fully verbal and very close to being considered "normal", I can fully relate to what you wrote. Even if I can understand most of body language on 1 on 1 conversations, it stills feels very close to what you wrote. So yes, I have experienced it.

I am not sure if I am in a place to give you suggestions, the best book to be more friendly I have read is "How to make friends and influence others" from Dale Carnegie. And the best book I have read on how to communicate properly with people you do care is "Nonviolent Communication" from Marshall Rosemberg.

Most NT I do know, including my family do need some things strongly:

1- They need to see that you are very happy to see them as soon as they aproach to you. Measuring the distance in which they want to see your happines of meeting them is not easy, but the closer the relation, the further you must see them and become happy for them. This is done mostly with body language, like waving the hand, nodding the head or showing a nice and true smile. If this need of them is not met properly they may give you a second chance once they come to close distance.

2- They want you to show how much do you love/respect them by using their names, asking about them (how are you?, how was the weekend? Did you managed to do that thing you told me the other week you was interested in? How are your parents doing?... the so called small talk). If you do meet this other need of them, they may also show some interest in you by asking this not so relevant and difficult to answer questions to you. They may alter the questions from their original purpose to take relevan info about you.

3- If you devote to them properly, they may give you something back if they are in the propper mood. Most of they times, they will just ask things from you or will tell you what you should be feeling or doing (in order to be more normal, which seems to be like a very important thing). Its very rare for them to step out of their way to help someone that is not from their tribe (not normal enougth). So I never count on that.

So this is how it goes for me, totally draining. Some people is less draining than others, and some of them are givers instead of drainers. Even with family that "love" me, they still have those strong needs of being loved and respected. And will take any "non love" hint like a "this person doesnt love me nor respect me" and react badly about it. Even if they know me for years. It doesnt matter. I still have to play the NT game for them every single time or face the consecuences of not behave properly.

Draining.

You are in a worse possition, since you cant even chose to play this game and be drained to get some degree of "normal" reactions from them. Those books may help you, but as you see, even NT do play the NT game to be accepted by others NT. Not even them scape from this crazy game and I guess this is one of the main reasons why many of them are so unhappy with their lifes of fitting and dont follow their dreams.

I hope to have given you some value, that was my intention.

 

[MyLifeAsAnAspie]

If they are really NT and like the person, it's not a game, but rather what comes natural to them. Of course, they may be able to fake liking someone and then it's a game.

I don't have much experience with therapists and counselors. Did they try to get you to mask and appear more NT? How did that go?

I like the idea of putting more in writing. Did any therapists and counselors ever suggest that approach?

I think the idea of reading books to learn the best NT practices of dealing with people is a good idea. The other model of this approach that I found helpful is called "assertiveness training". I used this book:

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

I had different communication issues. At its worst, a combination of; a lack of trust, indifference to social signals and a basic shyness, created social anxiety that left me isolated and lonely. I was able to communicate technically and especially to my interests but socially was completely inept. I had a hard time understanding why. Once I was in HS, I felt pretty rejected by people which only reinforced my negative self image and this was only reinforced more when I was mocked when sharing thoughts about social matters or when guys bragged to me about experiences they knew were impossible for me. To say that I felt severely damaged is an understatement.

After a decade of loneliness and isolation I worked on myself, and decided to enjoy my interests, first alone, and then with activity groups where socializing was only a small part of things, and I became better at it because there was some structure to the interaction.

 

[Aneka]

Hi, this has been building up with me for a while, and I'm not sure when it "started" (noticed it getting worse). I assume the pandemic issue (past two years) has intensified it for me, but ....

I've been having a helluva time understanding *anything* neurotypicals say anymore, and trying to understand and be understood (or even listened to) by my family has become a nightmare. I am so careful and particular in my word choices, as it is so easy for what I say to be misunderstood or offensive to NT's. Even so, I'm in more arguments than ever lately over something I said -- or something they said that I didn't understand, so I ask them to explain, which irritates them even more. I used to be able to decode them at least a little, but much of it sounds like gibberish or garbled code to me now. Some more than others.

Over time, people have seemed to be shutting me out -- of conversations, discussion threads, even when I'm in the room and physically in the middle of the conversation. Even worse is when the discussion includes or involves me, and they are talking about me like I'm not there.

All of this is leaving me feeling more depressed, hyper-anxious, and increasingly invisible. Isolated and deeply lonely in a way that I can't describe (I lack the language for it).

I want to push back against this, except that my awful communication skills are part of what got me into this mess, and I don't have access to services that could have helped me with this. My past experience with therapists and counselors has *not* been positive. I am mostly nonverbal by choice and difficulty (also keeps me out of trouble). However, this has also caused me deepening isolation, loneliness, and worsened my already poor social and communication skills. Unfortunately, NT's tend to associate "nonverbal" with "stupid" and "no feelings".

Has anyone else experienced something like this? If you have criticism, please be gentle, as I'm in a very painful place for now -- so I'd prefer suggestions or ideas, not criticism.

In my case my job has somehow intensified my autistic traits, I simply no longer possess a lot of energy for socialization. It used to be a lot better before.

 

[Callistemon]

Dear @s704m

Just looking from the outside of what you're describing, I was thinking that the difficulties are rarely one-sided - lots of families are dysfunctional. Just because they're neurotypical doesn't mean they are ideal people, or anything like this.

Here's a resource I can highly recommend, because it helped me to identify some "silent" things that had gone on in my own life.

The Invisible Scar

Best wishes to you!

 

[Owliet]

In my case my job has somehow intensified my autistic traits, I simply no longer possess a lot of energy for socialization. It used to be a lot better before.

This is how I feel too. At home I’m too tired to socialize further and at work during breaks I always try to avoid people toreset. I’m more fragile emotionally than I was, I’ve been that way since I’ve started. I like working. I want to work but perhaps this particular job is not the right fit for me.

I assume the pandemic issue (past two years) has intensified it for me, but ....

I think that for many, both NTs and ASD have found it challenging. I know that for me, the lack of social skills practice has been difficult to gain lost progress. I’m less motivated to form social relationships with people. And get tired very easily when I’m in situations.

Over time, people have seemed to be shutting me out -- of conversations, discussion threads, even when I'm in the room and physically in the middle of the conversation. Even worse is when the discussion includes or involves me, and they are talking about me like I'm not there.

Nothing worse than having people ostracize you. Happened to me a lot in high school and that really affected my self esteem and confidence. I’m pretty sure that it also happens at work because those who seem to be talking about me go pretty silent if I’m around. It is a horrible feeling and I’m sorry that you’re dealing with this.

Unfortunately, NT's tend to associate "nonverbal" with "stupid" and "no feelings".

If you struggle to find words to verbally say, could you approach someone who you like/trusted/is actually nice and either write a script in advance and use it to say how you’re feeling? Rehearse in the mirror of things that you want to say and that helps to give some practice. I have to do this if I’m going to have a day that is difficult for me and I need to prepare myself for it.
Best of luck to you.=)

 

[s704m]

Hello s704m,

Even being fully verbal and very close to being considered "normal", I can fully relate to what you wrote. Even if I can understand most of body language on 1 on 1 conversations, it stills feels very close to what you wrote. So yes, I have experienced it.

I am not sure if I am in a place to give you suggestions, the best book to be more friendly I have read is "How to make friends and influence others" from Dale Carnegie. And the best book I have read on how to communicate properly with people you do care is "Nonviolent Communication" from Marshall Rosemberg.

Most NT I do know, including my family do need some things strongly:

1- They need to see that you are very happy to see them as soon as they aproach to you. Measuring the distance in which they want to see your happines of meeting them is not easy, but the closer the relation, the further you must see them and become happy for them. This is done mostly with body language, like waving the hand, nodding the head or showing a nice and true smile. If this need of them is not met properly they may give you a second chance once they come to close distance.

2- They want you to show how much do you love/respect them by using their names, asking about them (how are you?, how was the weekend? Did you managed to do that thing you told me the other week you was interested in? How are your parents doing?... the so called small talk). If you do meet this other need of them, they may also show some interest in you by asking this not so relevant and difficult to answer questions to you. They may alter the questions from their original purpose to take relevan info about you.

3- If you devote to them properly, they may give you something back if they are in the propper mood. Most of they times, they will just ask things from you or will tell you what you should be feeling or doing (in order to be more normal, which seems to be like a very important thing). Its very rare for them to step out of their way to help someone that is not from their tribe (not normal enougth). So I never count on that.

So this is how it goes for me, totally draining. Some people is less draining than others, and some of them are givers instead of drainers. Even with family that "love" me, they still have those strong needs of being loved and respected. And will take any "non love" hint like a "this person doesnt love me nor respect me" and react badly about it. Even if they know me for years. It doesnt matter. I still have to play the NT game for them every single time or face the consecuences of not behave properly.

Draining.

You are in a worse possition, since you cant even chose to play this game and be drained to get some degree of "normal" reactions from them. Those books may help you, but as you see, even NT do play the NT game to be accepted by others NT. Not even them scape from this crazy game and I guess this is one of the main reasons why many of them are so unhappy with their lifes of fitting and dont follow their dreams.

I hope to have given you some value, that was my intention.

Your response is like a detailed manual on neurotypical relations. Reminds me of something I would see on Star Trek if they handled this type of thing. Enormously helpful and changes my perspective on how to prepare for these encounters. Thank you!!

 

[Atrapa Almas]

Oh! Thanks!

 

[s704m]

All of your responses have been great, thank you!! I can relate to or have experienced the same on some level. And, I very much appreciate the books and resources you all have shared with me. When I have tried talking to therapists in recent years, they usually diagnose me with "adjustment disorder" -- which seems to say that I have trouble adjusting to the natural order of things like everyone else does. I don't agree with this, but it seems to be the "diagnosis du jour" now. I stopped trusting therapists after one suggested I get a gun (when I was depressed and feeling unsafe in my neighborhood) and another disputed my autism after I was officially diagnosed -- and even my family has known I'm autistic for years.

Regarding practicing what to say and scripts -- I actually do that a lot, for everything (after I learned about social stories). I am truly awful at social situations of any kind, and have been since I was very young. My mother tried coaching me on many things when I was a child, including not to info-dump (so I journal instead), and little things like how to do greetings properly ("Hi, how are you? I'm fine, thanks, how are you?" etc) because I could never get it right. It all seemed so silly to me and still does. But -- as was said here -- I have to play the game, I just keep forgetting to, because I forget the rules, and I really find the game annoying. Also, NT's frequently change the rules of their games without warnings or cues -- lately I think it's a form of emotional blackmail on their part. I often find myself wondering, "How did you get THAT meaning from what I just said?" and there is no relation -- the person just had an agenda or wants to fight. So, I end up rehearsing a variety of scenarios to brace myself for unexpected nasty comments and surprise questions. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn't and I'm replaying the conversation for hours and days after in an attempt to self-regulate and make myself okay again.

I wish I could be a gamer (wish I understood how to play games) -- I think that would also help me understand codes and the rules of NT behavior better. Well, I'm rambling now. But I really am so grateful for all the responses. Thank you so much! <3

 

[Atrapa Almas]

How did you get THAT meaning from what I just said?" and there is no relation -- the person just had an agenda or wants to fight. So, I end up rehearsing a variety of scenarios to brace myself for unexpected nasty comments and surprise questions. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn't and I'm replaying the conversation for hours and days after in an attempt to self-regulate and make myself okay again.

I wish I could be a gamer (wish I understood how to play games) -- I think that would also help me understand codes and the rules of NT behavior better. Well, I'm rambling now. But I really am so grateful for all the responses. Thank you so much! <3

It may be because 93% of the human language is not what is said. So if you say 7% "black" with your words, but your tone says 38% "blue" and your body says 55% "yellow", the NT will understand whatever they want.
Its called the rule of 7%