Predisposed to be a liar?

[Allana]

Hello Everyone,

I am the mother of a son who is on the spectrum. While he was diagnosed several years ago, I have known that he processed things differently for a long time. I thought the diagnosis gave Me Something to work with; and I some ways it has, but it also creates a lot of questions.

When I look at lists of Asperger traits many of them fit but many do not. As a parent I want to be understanding and be supportive, but at the same time I also want to instill proper values. By values, I mean honesty, trustworthiness, consideration, kindness, etc.

My son who is 17 seems to lack impulse control. Not hyperactivity or in a Tourette's manner, but if he wants something he will take it regardless of the situation. I try to explain why the particular behavior is wrong, but he always has a justification for his poor behavior. The way he so easily rationalizes his dishonesty truly scares me because I am afraid that if he carries this behavior outside the house it will cause him a lot of trouble.

The lies are about all types of things. Things he shouldn't lie about. He does the same things repeatedly. When he actually does speak to me, he says he can't control himself. He says knows it's wrong but can't stop. It's always for some type of self gratification.

He is rarely remorseful and rarely apologizes. This is probably the worst part. I just can't understand his lack of emotion (I know that is Spectrum stuff). He will often times retreat and seem very upset, but his father says it's because he is being called on it. It's not about the impact the lie has had on the family. When he does apologize it is after a lot of fall out. Then repeats the behavior, so any prior apology becomes meaningless. I am always defending him because I often just can't believe he would actually do whatever the thing in question is. I'm basically the only one who gives him the benefit of the doubt anymore and it hurts when he makes a fool of me. I just know he has a good heart. And when he is good he is truly an amazing young man. Unfortunately, his need for self gratification is so strong he will do things he knows he shouldn't.

Ok,to sum it up, I don't want to chalk something up as being Spectrum related when it's not, but if there is really an issue that I need to have more patience/understanding for I want to do so. So is ridiculous lying and lack of remorse Spectrum and just his own poor character issues.

Your thoughts/ideas are welcome.

 

[xudo]

When I look at lists of Asperger traits many of them fit but many do not. As a parent I want to be understanding and be supportive, but at the same time I also want to instill proper values. By values, I mean honesty, trustworthiness, consideration, kindness, etc

Even though we do all share some traits, none of us will be the same. So looking at a list of traits, you will always find some that do not fit.

My son who is 17 seems to lack impulse control. Not hyperactivity or in a Tourette's manner, but if he wants something he will take it regardless of the situation. I try to explain why the particular behavior is wrong, but he always has a justification for his poor behavior.

Tourette's is not a matter of impulse control. I have no control over my Tourette's at all, even though I would like to.

He is rarely remorseful and rarely apologizes. This is probably the worst part. I just can't understand his lack of emotion (I know that is Spectrum stuff).

To some degree, NT's (and even other aspie's who do not have empathy issues/lack of emotion) will never understand those on the spectrum who show a lack of emotion and empathy. I would suggest you look into this more, but you may never be able to wrap your head around it, because feeling emotions and empathy comes naturally to you; you do not know how to be any other way, in the same way that your son doesn't know how to be any other way than how he is.

In terms of whether these things are spectrum related or not, I couldn't tell you for sure. I can see similarities in what you describe with myself, but not 100%. It could be that it is related to being on the spectrum, maybe it's only partly due to that and partly just his personality, or maybe it's wholly his personality and not related to being on the spectrum at all. I realise that that is of no help at all.

 

[Allana]

Even though we do all share some traits, none of us will be the same. So looking at a list of traits, you will always find some that do not fit.

So true, I could fall into many of the "traits" myself

Tourette's is not a matter of impulse control. I have no control over my Tourette's at all, even though I would like to.

Yes, I just wanted to be clear, not disrespectful. My husband used to teach children with many types a disabilities including Tourette's. I just didn't want to give the impression that that is what we are dealing with.

To some degree, NT's (and even other aspie's who do not have empathy issues/lack of emotion) will never understand those on the spectrum who show a lack of emotion and empathy. I would suggest you look into this more, but you may never be able to wrap your head around it, because feeling emotions and empathy comes naturally to you; you do not know how to be any other way, in the same way that your son doesn't know how to be any other way than how he is.

In terms of whether these things are spectrum related or not, I couldn't tell you for sure. I can see similarities in what you describe with myself, but not 100%. It could be that it is related to being on the spectrum, maybe it's only partly due to that and partly just his personality, or maybe it's wholly his personality and not related to being on the spectrum at all. I realise that that is of no help at all.

Thank you for this perspective. As a parent you want to understand and help your children. He has told me about being in groups and staying quiet because he can't keep up with the conversation. He has cried due to frustrations and feeling isolated. I get it because I did the same at times when I was a teenager, but he just has a few more issues that in some ways puts up additional walls. I want to teach him how to alter his thoughts or reactions, but as you say it is just natural so he can't change and neither can I. His biological father was very abusive and lacked empathy and pathologically dishonest. I am fearful of some of my sons traits. I don't want him going down paths that are going to bring him and others pain. I sometimes wonder if his biological father was on the spectrum. I see certain similarities that I know he has not gotten from my upbringing. It has me truly questioning nature vs. nurture (I never used too: I felt anything could be overcame with love). I guess we all just do the best we can.

 

[Ambi]

Hello Everyone,

I am the mother of a son who is on the spectrum. While he was diagnosed several years ago, I have known that he processed things differently for a long time. I thought the diagnosis gave Me Something to work with; and I some ways it has, but it also creates a lot of questions.

When I look at lists of Asperger traits many of them fit but many do not. As a parent I want to be understanding and be supportive, but at the same time I also want to instill proper values. By values, I mean honesty, trustworthiness, consideration, kindness, etc.

My son who is 17 seems to lack impulse control. Not hyperactivity or in a Tourette's manner, but if he wants something he will take it regardless of the situation. I try to explain why the particular behavior is wrong, but he always has a justification for his poor behavior. The way he so easily rationalizes his dishonesty truly scares me because I am afraid that if he carries this behavior outside the house it will cause him a lot of trouble.

The lies are about all types of things. Things he shouldn't lie about. He does the same things repeatedly. When he actually does speak to me, he says he can't control himself. He says knows it's wrong but can't stop. It's always for some type of self gratification.

He is rarely remorseful and rarely apologizes. This is probably the worst part. I just can't understand his lack of emotion (I know that is Spectrum stuff). He will often times retreat and seem very upset, but his father says it's because he is being called on it. It's not about the impact the lie has had on the family. When he does apologize it is after a lot of fall out. Then repeats the behavior, so any prior apology becomes meaningless. I am always defending him because I often just can't believe he would actually do whatever the thing in question is. I'm basically the only one who gives him the benefit of the doubt anymore and it hurts when he makes a fool of me. I just know he has a good heart. And when he is good he is truly an amazing young man. Unfortunately, his need for self gratification is so strong he will do things he knows he shouldn't.

Ok,to sum it up, I don't want to chalk something up as being Spectrum related when it's not, but if there is really an issue that I need to have more patience/understanding for I want to do so. So is ridiculous lying and lack of remorse Spectrum and just his own poor character issues.

Your thoughts/ideas are welcome.

I wouldn't be quick to accept the explanation that he can't help it when he behaves selfishly, lies, or breaks rules. As an Aspie, I usually wanted to follow rules, and I was sincerely sorry when I messed up. If I was doing something else, I was just being deceitful, sneaky, or manipulative. Always having a justification for his behavior rather than being open to learning (or accepting) *your* explanations and rules is going to be a big problem when he goes out into the world. Does he understand the difference between a reason and an excuse? He can have all the reasons/explanations he wants, but that doesn't make them valid excuses. If there is some psychological reason for all of this, I don't know if it's necessarily Aspergers.

 

[Mary Terry]

I suggest you impose some form of punishment that outweighs the gratification he obtains from lying and make sure he understands why he is being punished. Consistently take away something he loves for a sufficient length of time to help him understand cause and effect. If he loves some TV show, then don't let him watch that show for one day. If he loves potato chips, then take away the chips for one day. Whatever works. Make sure he understands the reason he is being deprived of that thing he loves. Consider returning the beloved thing to him only after he has acknowledged and apologized for his bad behavior. I suppose this is like behavior modification. He can learn that bad consequences flow from bad behavior. He seems to know right from wrong from your description of his behavior. He can learn that lying equals no special TV show, or no special food treat, or whatever will motivate him. I don't really think this is an ASD issue as much as a maturity issue. NT children and teenagers will do the same things if there are no significant bad consequences to follow their bad behavior. Hope that will help. Good luck!

 

[AveApollo]

So is ridiculous lying and lack of remorse Spectrum and just his own poor character issues.

Have you ever read that lying and lack of remorse is part of being on the spectrum? Ever? It's not. Simple.
Many people assume that any kind of behavior or characteristic may be spectrum related. Why? There are lists online from medical websites. Doctors. Books. Information that takes very little time to find out (as long as you avoid some nasty websites that give false information about autistics because of some bias or personal agendas).

Let me inform you that: autistic people are more likely to be HONEST than neurotypical (non-autistic) people. This is due to not being naturally aware what the other person is thinking, without the other person telling us. So we just speak our minds. It gets us in trouble. It also makes us reliable and honest friends to neurotypicals. We don't often play social games or mind games for this reason too. We can't easily know what's going on in someone else's mind, so we'd be rubbish at it and plus, we tend to dislike the social necessities that neurotypicals like and think are needed, so are less likely to engange in any emotional manipulation. In fact, autistic people are often the victims of liars and those who lack remorse, because we tend to take what people say to us, just as it is. We don't 'read' the intentions behind someone else's words. We are simple and honest in this way.

Ok, so what could it be then? First thing would be to ask a doctor, since there are a few pathological conditions which have 'lack of remorse' and impulse control difficulties as traits.
That's the other thing. We are capable of having more than just autism and may have another condition as well, just like a neurotypical might have more than one diagnosis.

Once again, I keep seeing questions from parents asking things that they should already know, being a parent. It takes very little time to see what traits we often posses. But of course, some parents don't have competent doctors, or may have been told wrong information, or just might be wondering. I am not attacking you, as you have rightly said that you don't want to just attribute something to being on the spectrum, and have tried to ask about it. But you seem to misunderstand about empathy and this may have lead you to believe that spectrum conditions might equal lack of remorse. We tend to get that misunderstanding a lot. Imagine if it were the opposite way around, that you were a minority, and due to not understanding about what empathy is, you as a group are consistently branded as callous, lying and lacking remorse.
So, to clarify: WE ARE EMPATHETIC. Very much so. Arguably more than non-autistic people. There are at least two types of empathy. One is to do with naturally recognising what the other person is thinking and feeling, without being told. (Reading social cues or piecing together information to see a bigger picture and therefore how the other person must be feeling). We lack this ability in terms of how well we do it compared to non-autistic people. But once we are told, we absolutely have empathy. The other type of empathy. This kind that is to do with whether you actually care about the other person, knowing the facts and what they are feeling, once told, or if it's obvious. We might not show our emotion in the same way (so it looks like we don't care) but we absolutely do. Also, we might process an emotion several days or months after the actual event happened.

So, ask your doctor about the lack of control and repeated/ridiculous lying. It isn't because of being on the spectrum.

 

[xudo]

So, to clarify: WE ARE EMPATHETIC. Very much so. Arguably more than non-autistic people. There are at least two types of empathy. One is to do with naturally recognising what the other person is thinking and feeling, without being told. (Reading social cues or piecing together information to see a bigger picture and therefore how the other person must be feeling). We lack this ability in terms of how well we do it compared to non-autistic people. But once we are told, we absolutely have empathy.

To clarify, not all of us are.

 

[AveApollo]

To clarify: if you aren't empathetic at all, once you know someone is in pain or in danger that you care about etc, then that's not because you're on the spectrum.
It has been shown with fMRI scans that autistic people don't lack THAT type of empathy. If you're sure you lack that type, then you MAY have a cluster B personality disorder.
Look, I scored less than 10 on the Empathy Quotient test. Non autistics score up to 80. Autistics score 30 or lower. So I look like I don't have empathy. But that's just one type. I don't lack the other type of empathy however.

 

[xudo]

To clarify: if you aren't empathetic at all, once you know someone is in pain or in danger that you care about etc, then that's not because you're on the spectrum.
It has been shown with fMRI scans that autistic people don't lack THAT type of empathy. If you're sure you lack that type, then you MAY have a cluster B personality disorder.
Look, I scored less than 10 on the Empathy Quotient test. Non autistics score up to 80. Autistics score 30 or lower. So I look like I don't have empathy. But that's just one type. I don't lack the other type of empathy however.

I do not have a personality disorder. It was confirmed to me by the person who diagnosed me that he does see people on the spectrum who do not show/experience/have empathy. Mainly from his experience people with Asperger's. I trust having lived as me and having had him (a professor of neurology) confirm this to me, more than the EQ, although that was interesting. (I scored 6).

I can indeed sympathise when I know that somebody is suffering in some way. I cannot empathise with them, because to empathise, you need to be able to (to some degree) be able to see things from their perspective, or 'put yourself in their shoes'. I can't do that, I can only see things from my 'shoes'.

 

[Grandmother B]

Hello Everyone,

I am the mother of a son who is on the spectrum. While he was diagnosed several years ago, I have known that he processed things differently for a long time. I thought the diagnosis gave Me Something to work with; and I some ways it has, but it also creates a lot of questions.

When I look at lists of Asperger traits many of them fit but many do not. As a parent I want to be understanding and be supportive, but at the same time I also want to instill proper values. By values, I mean honesty, trustworthiness, consideration, kindness, etc.

My son who is 17 seems to lack impulse control. Not hyperactivity or in a Tourette's manner, but if he wants something he will take it regardless of the situation. I try to explain why the particular behavior is wrong, but he always has a justification for his poor behavior. The way he so easily rationalizes his dishonesty truly scares me because I am afraid that if he carries this behavior outside the house it will cause him a lot of trouble.

The lies are about all types of things. Things he shouldn't lie about. He does the same things repeatedly. When he actually does speak to me, he says he can't control himself. He says knows it's wrong but can't stop. It's always for some type of self gratification.

He is rarely remorseful and rarely apologizes. This is probably the worst part. I just can't understand his lack of emotion (I know that is Spectrum stuff). He will often times retreat and seem very upset, but his father says it's because he is being called on it. It's not about the impact the lie has had on the family. When he does apologize it is after a lot of fall out. Then repeats the behavior, so any prior apology becomes meaningless. I am always defending him because I often just can't believe he would actually do whatever the thing in question is. I'm basically the only one who gives him the benefit of the doubt anymore and it hurts when he makes a fool of me. I just know he has a good heart. And when he is good he is truly an amazing young man. Unfortunately, his need for self gratification is so strong he will do things he knows he shouldn't.

Ok,to sum it up, I don't want to chalk something up as being Spectrum related when it's not, but if there is really an issue that I need to have more patience/understanding for I want to do so. So is ridiculous lying and lack of remorse Spectrum and just his own poor character issues.

Your thoughts/ideas are welcome.

Please go to www.aspergerexperts.com and see if they have some advice you can use. They have paid programs, but also a lot of free videos on how to interact with a person on the Spectrum; plenty for parents. The guys that started this site both have Asperger's and have gone on to live fulfilled and productive lives. My grandson has it; I used to tell him that he could not use his problems to get out of stuff. This sounds like your son may be manipulating you by using the fact that he has Asperger's to get out of consequences. I hope they can help you. Blessings!

 

[Keigan]

@Allana ,

Not an easy role to be a parent of any child.

I need your absolute and complete attention here:

You are too close to the problem, deep breath.


In your original post, within four sentences, he is:
- if he wants something he will take it (aspie trait)
- poor behavior (subjective opinion)
- behavior is wrong (subjective opinion)
- rationalizes his dishonesty (subjective opinion)

Consider that he might not know anything different - an aspie is mostly the result of learned behavior, so you might want to look at what actions He is learning from his environment. Many aspies repeat the behavior they have observed and that is all they know at this time, potentially some of what he has learned needs to be re-framed with different context and different examples - many aspies learn by observing and doing, not so much by words read or spoken.

He needs help to understand personal space, respect for things belonging to others, other individuals - this will be a life long pursuit for him.

Regarding you comments about him not having the same levels of emotions as others (subjective opinion), we all have different understandings of our emotions and different ways of expressing them and some don't even feel. Start doing some research on Alexithymia.

 

[Diagnosed2015]

Many of us share traits; though many of us don't. I didn't understand the extent of the issues my children had until they became mine -- later in life. A lot of issues I never had the "time" to sit back and realize had been apparent as a child (such as being 'obsessed' with a teen idol to the nth degree when I was 11) or even being "overly anxious" which no one felt the need to address.

With my children, I made it my duty not only to know and understand their individual issues, but as I got older and had less to focus on, I started focusing on my own thoughts and experiences and how they could have been (or were) RED FLAGS that someone should have realized something(s) were wrong.

That being said, you have a teen who processes information differently -- what you are "hearing" and what he is "saying" (in words or actions) may appear to be lies to you, but they are not necessarily his 'motive.'
He's not TRYING to be confrontational or lie, but he's processing information differently.

Asperger's/Autism is NOT a behavioral diagnosis in terms of "intent." He is NOT necessarily someone who is "constantly lying." What he MAY be doing (of course, nothing is certain with lack of information) is attempting to explain (to you OR himself) what makes him do what he does.

He's 17, but I'm going to use some 'easy' examples to help describe where your differences MAY be happening -- it doesn't have to be exact, just an insight into what's blocking your 'acceptance' of a processing problem.

I also found a website to be incredibly helpful for myself, because my problem has become CLEARLY an issue with me. *Link at bottom of answer.

• So, when you leave the house in the morning -- you 'know' that there is a package of Oreos in the cupboard.
• There might be 1/2 a package left -- the old-fashioned kind of flat package that holds, say, two sleeves of Oreos.
• He comes home from school, finds the package, and eats the rest of the Oreos -- it doesn't matter why.
• Once you are home later, you go to get the Oreos, and find them gone. You ask, "Who ate all the Oreos?" or "Did you eat all the Oreos?"
• He says, "No," with a completely straight face, presumes to be incredibly sincere, might get argumentative that you are blaming him for something he didn't do
• It can also leave him incredibly nervous and upset, because he doesn't understand why you are mad, he doesn't understand what he did wrong, he doesn't understand why he's not "getting" the issue that's creating your anger.

The DIFFERENCE -- is that he knows the package contained a certain number of cookies. Whether it's by "two sleeves" or "25 cookies in each row," or even "a whole or a half," but he's CALCULATED/CALCULATING the number of cookies.

He knows from previous experience that you get upset when he eats a sleeve (which he might consider 25), so he sees the package he ate as "less than 25." Remember, that's all that was left in the container.

He's not processing "All," as "the remainder," and it's not going to change -- for him -- no matter how YOU process it. He knows that "all" the cookies would be, say, 50. He didn't eat 50. He knows 1/2 would be 25. He didn't eat 25. He knows he wanted cookies. He ate cookies. He didn't eat "all" of them, because someone had already eaten some. He didn't "finish off" the package -- because he didn't start it.

Again, that's a HIGHLY simplified example. As the parent of a child on the spectrum, it's your "job" to advocate for him. It means YOU have to get to know spectrum disorders inside and out. It means you explain to OTHERS if his behavior is deemed unacceptable and explain (as I tried) to modify situations for everyone's best interest.

IF he's having processing issues, it's something that needs to be addressed because it's not always a separate issue. Some of my issues interfered with my 'understanding' of why certain rules, regulations, lessons, etc. had any meaning, until someone else could make "sense" of it for me.

For instance, I'm a computer geek who has been using software and computers for 25 years. I'm extremely comfortable finding my own way around, learning how to do (or undo) things, navigating the web and I'm obsessed with event logs. I have a "biblical" (almost) knowledge of my computer.

However, my aversion to math and numbers have always made the hardware part of the computer an avoidance factor -- too many numbers and technical information (byes, RAM, memory, etc.). One day, a friend was updating their computer and started talking about memory and RAM. I asked what the difference was (or mentioned that I could never figure out what it was).

If I'm not mistaken, it was explained (THIS time) as something this simple: memory runs your entire computer; RAM runs the programs you are currently working on, until you exit and close the document or project. Then it goes back into memory.

THAT WAS THE CLEAREST EXPLANATION I HAD EVER RECEIVED. IT TOOK 25 YEARS (I'm almost 60) FOR ME TO 'GET IT.'

His (and your) entire life is going to be based on those moments. Being able to understand your son is not his job -- it's yours. I'm not being rude or cruel -- it's a (possibly) lifelong journey of helping him make sense of his surroundings.

Have you ever wondered why someone would pay $4/pound for something marked 'Organic' in the grocery store, but they live on a fixed income and can hardly afford food? Do you remember how curious it might seem to you that they can't just pay the .59/cents per pound that others do?

Remember that confusion in your head? Consider having that about every. single. thought. you may or may not address (mentally, in your head). It makes your life completely (emotionally, mentally) exhausting. Just getting through the day is exhausting and difficult.

While I'm not Introverted or outwardly socially anxious, I *do* enjoy "my time," where I can unwind, chill, work on computer, watch tv, dress comfortably, and just be "me," with no one else around to impress. Once you add another person, as well meaning, pleasant, or otherwise friendly they are -- it is no longer "my time" anymore -- and I am forced (not in a bad way) to once again interact on a social level.

I enjoy being social -- it's how I get through the "outside" world. But, as soon as I get behind the safety of my front door, I get to revert to "me." In your son's case, you aren't giving him that space. How he acts/behaves in his "safe" place (of course, within guidelines he can attain), is less of an issue than how he behaves "outside."

I've had to explain to people that they may have to 're-explain' something to me if I don't 'get it.' On one hand, I'm a retired managerial professional who managed to get through school, get married, raise three gifted (yet highly individual) children with successful careers.

I either "get" something on a level far-too intense for others to 'associate' with, or something else has to be explained as if speaking to a 10-year-old. It's why I tutor children with learning challenges; because I am one~

Signs, Symptoms & Side Effects of Sensory Processing Disorder - Arkansas, AR - Ascent

Good luck.

 

[AveApollo]

Again, you/the specialist is talking about Cognitive Empathy. A specific type of empathy. We lack that yes. We still have emotional empathy or the other sort, to varying degrees, just as NTs have it to varying degrees, and it isn't due to autism that an Autistic has low Emotional Empathy. It is due to autism for lacking social/mirror neuron Cognitive Empathy however.
I'm not going to explain this any more. I was diagnosed at the world leading ARC Clinic in Cambridge, lead by world renowned expert Dr Simon Baron-Cohen. I didn't just have an EQ test, but mentioned that because it's relaxant to explaining what Cognitive Empathy is as opposed to the Emotional Empathy type, which you still seem to not understand, so just Google it or read Tony Attwood, Dr Cohen and various scientific reports that aimed to look at what type of empathy is lacking in autistic people.
I didn't accuse you of having a personality disorder, but since you said you DON'T have empathy, the known conditions where the cause of lack of emotional empathy, relate to cluster B disorders.

I'm not going to continue this conversation because I've said it clearly. Autistic people lack one type of empathy, not the other. If you lack the other or both, it could be cluster B. When I say 'you' I also mean in general.

I do not have a personality disorder. It was confirmed to me by the person who diagnosed me that he does see people on the spectrum who do not show/experience/have empathy. Mainly from his experience people with Asperger's. I trust having lived as me and having had him (a professor of neurology) confirm this to me, more than the EQ, although that was interesting. (I scored 6).

I can indeed sympathise when I know that somebody is suffering in some way. I cannot empathise with them, because to empathise, you need to be able to (to some degree) be able to see things from their perspective, or 'put yourself in their shoes'. I can't do that, I can only see things from my 'shoes'.

 

[yotimbo]

Hello Everyone,

I am the mother of a son who is on the spectrum. While he was diagnosed several years ago, I have known that he processed things differently for a long time. I thought the diagnosis gave Me Something to work with; and I some ways it has, but it also creates a lot of questions.

When I look at lists of Asperger traits many of them fit but many do not. As a parent I want to be understanding and be supportive, but at the same time I also want to instill proper values. By values, I mean honesty, trustworthiness, consideration, kindness, etc.

My son who is 17 seems to lack impulse control. Not hyperactivity or in a Tourette's manner, but if he wants something he will take it regardless of the situation. I try to explain why the particular behavior is wrong, but he always has a justification for his poor behavior. The way he so easily rationalizes his dishonesty truly scares me because I am afraid that if he carries this behavior outside the house it will cause him a lot of trouble.

The lies are about all types of things. Things he shouldn't lie about. He does the same things repeatedly. When he actually does speak to me, he says he can't control himself. He says knows it's wrong but can't stop. It's always for some type of self gratification.

He is rarely remorseful and rarely apologizes. This is probably the worst part. I just can't understand his lack of emotion (I know that is Spectrum stuff). He will often times retreat and seem very upset, but his father says it's because he is being called on it. It's not about the impact the lie has had on the family. When he does apologize it is after a lot of fall out. Then repeats the behavior, so any prior apology becomes meaningless. I am always defending him because I often just can't believe he would actually do whatever the thing in question is. I'm basically the only one who gives him the benefit of the doubt anymore and it hurts when he makes a fool of me. I just know he has a good heart. And when he is good he is truly an amazing young man. Unfortunately, his need for self gratification is so strong he will do things he knows he shouldn't.

Ok,to sum it up, I don't want to chalk something up as being Spectrum related when it's not, but if there is really an issue that I need to have more patience/understanding for I want to do so. So is ridiculous lying and lack of remorse Spectrum and just his own poor character issues.

Your thoughts/ideas are welcome.

I was diagnosed at 41 yrs, without doubt the single most detrimental thing in my life was being a pathological liar from the age of 9 , its related to autism and not understanding how to respond properly and not understanding that its bad to tell lies, there are many names for it , mythomania, pseudologia fantastica or just pathological lying. It cost me everything all relationships destroyed by the age of 30 and lost in a labyrinth of confusion. Just before he tells a lie he will get a tiny feeling of excitement in his brain (thats dopamine) followed hours later by embarrassment (a mini sort of downer) its not in his control , he doesn't know its happening . Dont shout at him when he lies but you must calmly let him know that NTs arent stupid and they know that hes lying they just dont want the awkwardness of telling him that. It will take many months of cbt to remove this cycle but do it now and make it the most paramount thing in your life . No medication will solve this . And just checking ... make sure his lies are not malicious because if they are you could be dealing with a different thing ( psychopathy) autistic lies are pointless and detrimental to the liar . Good luck its going to be horrible im afraid but feel free to contact me I would love to help stop anyone losing what I have lost

 

[kay]

Lying, lack of remorse and empathy are not Spectrum traits, they are human traits. So, yes, someone can be Autistic and still lie, and lack empathy and remorse.

However, nothing I have seen or heard of in my life has given me any reason to believe that NTs have more empathy of any kind than Autistics. NTs may read cues better/quicker and respond in ways socially expected more often but that's all. NTs are often amazingly indifferent and cold to those who are clearly hurting.

As for the young man mentioned in the original post, I don't know him and so really can't say what's going on. I hope things get resolved and it's certainly possible that what he is doing is like with the example of the Oreos.

 

[fuzz]

Can you give one or two specific examples of the lies and what happened that he got found out, and what you or he said afterwards?

 

[AveApollo]

I was diagnosed at 41 yrs, without doubt the single most detrimental thing in my life was being a pathological liar from the age of 9 , its related to autism and not understanding how to respond properly and not understanding that its bad to tell lies.

Once again...telling lies (knowing you are not telling the truth in order to gain an advantage and/or knowing that it will make the other person upset) is NOT related to autism.
You are taking your personal experience and then saying a blanket all encompassing sentence "it's related to autism". If the person is told how to respond and the consequences of telling the lie, they will not do it. In fact, autistic children have been found to be less capable of lying than non-autistic children.
Let's look at the SCIENCE and not personal opinion to give firm statements...

Prefrontal white matter in pathological liars | The British Journal of Psychiatry

Now..show me a scientifically valid study (not personal opinion) to counter the finding that autistic children were less capable of lying.

I'm fed up of fellow autistics trying to tell NTs what autism is or isn't, without knowing themselves, but basing it on their own experiences and assuming that it's the way it is.

I am fed up of non-autistics/NTs not doing their own research, assuming things or simply asking forums for answers (where a lot ofo non-factual or unreliable replies are found), instead of doctors or reading credible sources or books.

Continue this way and we will continue to be stereotyped or classed as people without feelings and unempathetic etc.

 

[yotimbo]

Lying, lack of remorse and empathy are not Spectrum traits, they are human traits. So, yes, someone can be Autistic and still lie, and lack empathy and remorse.

However, nothing I have seen or heard of in my life has given me any reason to believe that NTs have more empathy of any kind than Autistics. NTs may read cues better/quicker and respond in ways socially expected more often but that's all. NTs are often amazingly indifferent and cold to those who are clearly hurting.

As for the young man mentioned in the original post, I don't know him and so really can't say what's going on. I hope things get resolved and it's certainly possible that what he is doing is like with the example of the Oreos.

A

Once again...telling lies (knowing you are not telling the truth in order to gain an advantage and/or knowing that it will make the other person upset) is NOT related to autism.
You are taking your personal experience and then saying a blanket all encompassing sentence "it's related to autism". If the person is told how to respond and the consequences of telling the lie, they will not do it. In fact, autistic children have been found to be less capable of lying than non-autistic children.
Let's look at the SCIENCE and not personal opinion to give firm statements...

Prefrontal white matter in pathological liars | The British Journal of Psychiatry

Now..show me a scientifically valid study (not personal opinion) to counter the finding that autistic children were less capable of lying.

I'm fed up of fellow autistics trying to tell NTs what autism is or isn't, without knowing themselves, but basing it on their own experiences and assuming that it's the way it is.

I am fed up of non-autistics/NTs not doing their own research, assuming things or simply asking forums for answers (where a lot ofo non-factual or unreliable replies are found), instead of doctors or reading credible sources or books.

Continue this way and we will continue to be stereotyped or classed as people without feelings and unempathetic etc.

Hi there . If it bothers you so much read a book or watch tv or something. My experience is mine it belongs to me. If I can use it to help somebody else then I will. In reference to your link . I am 3 years into my phd forensic psychology . I know a small amount about this topic

 

[AveApollo]

A

Hi there . If it bothers you so much read a book or watch tv or something. My experience is mine it belongs to me. If I can use it to help somebody else then I will. In reference to your link . I am 3 years into my phd forensic psychology . I know a small amount about this topic

3 Years in to your PHD...so you know more than these scientists who have finished their PhDs? You know more than Dr Simon Baron-Cohen et al? Ok then.

And what bothers me is BS that is posted by people that say crap like "pathological lying is part of being on the spectrum" because it's not true and only fuels the false idea that we are callous, lying uncaring people.

But you're right. I will go an watch tv or something as you put it. I give up trying to correct false information that damages the perception of what being on the spectrum means.

 

[yotimbo]

3 Years in to your PHD...so you know more than these scientists who have finished their PhDs? You know more than Dr Simon Baron-Cohen et al? Ok then.

And what bothers me is BS that is posted by people that say crap like "pathological lying is part of being on the spectrum" because it's not true and only fuels the false idea that we are callous, lying uncaring people.

But you're right. I will go an watch tv or something as you put it. I give up trying to correct false information that damages the perception of what being on the spectrum means.

I dont claim to know more than anybody but I do know a little bit about this topic , im quite comfortable in my position thankyou, I replied to this thread in an effort to give a desperate person some valuable advice. I have lived with asbergers syndrome my whole life and have no interest in what other people's knowledge of the subject is, I do remember however being at the frustrated stage that you are at, and I look back with embarrassment. Enjoy your television program