Psychopathy & Autism

[King_Oni]

There's a thought that has been on my mind for the past few days. Granted, I've been on a serial killer kick for the past few days as well, so the entire notion of psychopathy has it's foundation somewhere.

Anyhow; Over the past few years I've seen a lot of therapists and they all found me lacking empathy. Finally it seemed that it was autism, though I've been bordering on socio- and psychopathic scales as well. Probably if I didn't pursue further opinions of experts I'd be labeled "psychopath" or "sociopath" based on a superficial 1 hour interview and a questionnaire once on a blue monday.

Now; Empathy still is lacking and that in fact is one of those things one might put side to side and label someone a psychopath instead of someone with autism. I'm not saying every psychopath is autistic, nor everyone with autism is a psychopath. But a lack of empathy can be an indicator of either.

But... and this is the main thing that came to mind, especially for those with a lower empathy score;

Is the reason "we" don't act out in criminal and cruel acts based for a big part of;
a. a pretty strong rational thinking mind. Thus pretty much being able to talk yourself out of doing stupid things.
b. obsessions and interests that keep us busy and distracted from acting out. Which one might even state as "acting out of sheer boredom".

I'm however convinced that both autism and psychopathy can co-exist in a person and I somehow think that for most of us, luckily, the autism part is deeper and stronger.

 

[oscar2012]

I asked a medical person once is having asperger the closest thing to squitsafrenia he told me yes it is and the same for A.D.H.D thats the same as aspergers to

 

[King_Oni]

I asked a medical person once is having asperger the closest thing to squitsafrenia he told me yes it is and the same for A.D.H.D thats the same as aspergers to

Do you mean Schizophrenia?

If so, I don't know if schizophrenia and Aspergers are the same... schizophrenia surely isn't the same as psychopathy, though it can be complimentary for individuals to end up on "the wrong track". ADHD (and it's close cousin ADD), while often being co-morbid with autism aren't the same either.

Schizophrenia usually comes with hallucinations and the like (most of the time, not always). Social withdrawal sometimes happens, which might be one of the things that is found with people on the autism spectrum, but that's where, as far as I know, the similarities end.

 

[manca]

I'm not empathetic either (I don't feel sorry for people all broken in hospital when I work with them and I don't feel sorry for my mare being in pain). That doesn't mean I will not be careful while working with people in pain or that I'll be riding my mare or not offering vet care. That just wouldn't be right. I can't do something if I'm sure it's wrong. I have to do what seems appropriate. If there are instructions in the book that arthritis can be treated with joint supplements, injections, etc, I will get that for my horse.
Maybe because of my wish for riding again? Maybe I'm careful with injured people because it would be too stressful to hear them complain? I didn't think about that a lot... I'm sure I have a reason. It's definitely not empathy.

 

[King_Oni]

I'm not empathetic either (I don't feel sorry for people all broken in hospital when I work with them and I don't feel sorry for my mare being in pain). That doesn't mean I will not be careful while working with people in pain or that I'll be riding my mare or not offering vet care. That just wouldn't be right. I can't do something if I'm sure it's wrong. I have to do what seems appropriate. If there are instructions in the book that arthritis can be treated with joint supplements, injections, etc, I will get that for my horse.
Maybe because of my wish for riding again? Maybe I'm careful with injured people because it would be too stressful to hear them complain? I didn't think about that a lot... I'm sure I have a reason. It's definitely not empathy.

Wouldn't it all be rationalizing that you want to have something which you can not have if you act out on impulse?

Maybe you're careful with injured people because you want to keep your job, which in turn offers you an income, which in turns keeps your livelyhood viable.

I think people that act on impulse don't really care about "their future" or livelyhood. Having an urge to, for example hurt someone really badly, doesn't always mean that people don't know what they're doing. In fact, the biggest psychopaths are the ones that actually do know this and enjoy causing pain.

So perhaps the entire notion of psychopathy vs. "the aspie brain" does in fact rely on rationalizing and not acting out of impulse because "you feel like it", no matter what the outcome is.

Thinking about your example with your mare. Perhaps it's that you don't want to give up on it? That makes perfect sense to me. Personally, I have a lot of things I care for, and probably care more for than I care for the people around me, and I don't want to give these things up. Afterall, if I don't care for these things, I don't have any thing to live for, so probably that takes the brake of, so to say.

 

[Loomis]

The differences between the lack of empathy in psychopaths/sociopaths vs. in autistics are revealed by feelings of remorse, the experience of anxiety and fear, the ability to pick up nonverbal cues and the presence or absence of a moral code.

Psychopaths/sociopaths engage in manipulative and exploitive behavior driven by their lack of remorse. When they use people to satisfy their needs and desires they feel no guilt for harm done to others. In fact for them it is a game to toy with "empaths" just for fun. They are wont to callously inflict great harm for a very minor pleasure payoff. Along with lack of remorse they are often described as fearless. Their personalities are superficially charming and they are very skillful at understanding nonverbal social communication and mimicking "empaths" outward expressions. Unlike aspies, they know exactly how to express the right emotions and behaviors to elicit the target responses they seek.

For autistics, anxiety, a close relative of fear, is usually a signal characteristic of our psychology; we may experience fear in unique ways compared to NTs but it would not be typical to describe an aspie/autie as fearless. We also tend to follow strict moral codes and experience guilt when we violate the code or willfully injure others. Finally, we tend to be clueless when it comes to nonverbal cues and we would be hard pressed to fake an emotional state. We tend to be terminally and brutally honest to our detriment.

 

[manca]

Wouldn't it all be rationalizing that you want to have something which you can not have if you act out on impulse?

Maybe you're careful with injured people because you want to keep your job, which in turn offers you an income, which in turns keeps your livelyhood viable.

I think people that act on impulse don't really care about "their future" or livelyhood. Having an urge to, for example hurt someone really badly, doesn't always mean that people don't know what they're doing. In fact, the biggest psychopaths are the ones that actually do know this and enjoy causing pain.

So perhaps the entire notion of psychopathy vs. "the aspie brain" does in fact rely on rationalizing and not acting out of impulse because "you feel like it", no matter what the outcome is.

Thinking about your example with your mare. Perhaps it's that you don't want to give up on it? That makes perfect sense to me. Personally, I have a lot of things I care for, and probably care more for than I care for the people around me, and I don't want to give these things up. Afterall, if I don't care for these things, I don't have any thing to live for, so probably that takes the brake of, so to say.

I think you are right. Why would I do something that brings me nothing positive (no enjoyment, no rewards) and a chance to bring bad things?
Riding my mare would bring joy, but in long term, she would not be able to accomplish my goals with her performance and that would get me frustrated, maybe I'd stop, give up and then really, what would there be left of my life? At least now I can concentrate on her illness and work on her manners from ground. It occupies me and makes me happy.

 

[Ste11aeres]

I'm not empathetic either (I don't feel sorry for people all broken in hospital when I work with them and I don't feel sorry for my mare being in pain). That doesn't mean I will not be careful while working with people in pain or that I'll be riding my mare or not offering vet care. That just wouldn't be right. I can't do something if I'm sure it's wrong. I have to do what seems appropriate. If there are instructions in the book that arthritis can be treated with joint supplements, injections, etc, I will get that for my horse.
Maybe because of my wish for riding again? Maybe I'm careful with injured people because it would be too stressful to hear them complain? I didn't think about that a lot... I'm sure I have a reason. It's definitely not empathy.

I think there's different types of empathy. Feeling pain along with someone else is one type, recognizing someone's pain is another. I think taking actions to relieve someone's pain can be considered a form of rational practical empathy, even if there is no emotion behind it.

I rarely feel emotional empathy, but I try to avoid causing pain and try to help people. I do care about some of those people, even if not all the emotions are in place.

 

[Cyanide Lollipop]

Martin Bryant, Australia's worst mass murderer, has an IQ of 66 and is possibly autistic.
kildall.apana.org.au/autism/articles/bryant.html

 

[Aalo]

I've understood that most common symptom in schizophrenia is to have dysfunctional brains so that not all synapses mo from other areas to another, and that might cause feeling of unreal sensations (hallucinations or other) simply because brain can't process the data that person senses. Even more often it just causes person getting distorted from reality, because actions and speech of others won't seem to go as once. I can't imagine how confusing that could get. Psychopaths should have good sense of what's happening, and they should be able to find a reason to understand it all well despite not being able to feel.
That in mind it might not be really far from ASD. Well, it seems to be under debate whether our brains are scattered into autonomic compartments or just masked from outside. And genetic overlap is quite strong in these.

I just got today thinking if I'd be near psychopath (I watched We need to talk about Kevin and started to think about similarities with me as a kid and that psychopath boy portrayed in the movie), but I don't think so. I can be really rational and cold, and overtake what ever people might have in their minds if it doesn't concern my well being. But I'd never harm or manipulate anyone to harm their selves just for my fun, or out of an interest. I don't even think I could have such an influence on anyone that they'd follow not only my lead, but only my verbal command. I believe psychopath, or are they sociopaths nowadays, wouldn't even hesitate to try in times of an urge.

Am I too kind or just not interested in others that much, not even in means of using them?

 

[total-recoil]

I discovered Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys had schizophrenia.I also discovered there is a link between schizophrenia and huge creative talent but the claim is the mental illness will kill off the creativity at some point if the symptoms worsen. Anyway, I understand exactly what you refer to here. Evidently even John Lennon had a real issue with the dark side of his personality, and was capable of violent outbursts.

There's a thought that has been on my mind for the past few days. Granted, I've been on a serial killer kick for the past few days as well, so the entire notion of psychopathy has it's foundation somewhere.

Anyhow; Over the past few years I've seen a lot of therapists and they all found me lacking empathy. Finally it seemed that it was autism, though I've been bordering on socio- and psychopathic scales as well. Probably if I didn't pursue further opinions of experts I'd be labeled "psychopath" or "sociopath" based on a superficial 1 hour interview and a questionnaire once on a blue monday.

Now; Empathy still is lacking and that in fact is one of those things one might put side to side and label someone a psychopath instead of someone with autism. I'm not saying every psychopath is autistic, nor everyone with autism is a psychopath. But a lack of empathy can be an indicator of either.

But... and this is the main thing that came to mind, especially for those with a lower empathy score;

Is the reason "we" don't act out in criminal and cruel acts based for a big part of;
a. a pretty strong rational thinking mind. Thus pretty much being able to talk yourself out of doing stupid things.
b. obsessions and interests that keep us busy and distracted from acting out. Which one might even state as "acting out of sheer boredom".

I'm however convinced that both autism and psychopathy can co-exist in a person and I somehow think that for most of us, luckily, the autism part is deeper and stronger.