Question if it is moral to punish and put people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder or Antisocial Personality Disorder with psychopathic features

[Oz67]

Is it moral to punish and put people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder or Antisocial Personality Disorder with psychopathic features in jails or prisons instead of forensic correctional facilities?

First of all, jails or prisons don't have excellent training to handle those two personality disorders correctly if it is severe or profound, even if a prison psychiatrist or psychologist is trying to help severely mentally ill prisoners fix their thoughts and conduct.

Another issue is that people with severe or profound Narcissistic Personality Disorder or severe or profound Antisocial Personality Disorder with psychopathic features might be legally sane and competent to stand trial. Still, they have this strange nihilistic delusional view of this world. When they commit crimes, many also have a delusion that rules don't apply to them, due to disregard for right and wrong, and also black and withe thinking, with no grounds for the middle ground.

I hope you guys understand where I am coming from with this issue.

 

[Outdated]

Is it moral to punish and put people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder or Antisocial Personality Disorder with psychopathic features in jails or prisons instead of forensic correctional facilities?

Looking at morality from only one perspective always leads to injustice.

Things that need to be taken in to consideration are often conflicting and sometimes tough judgement calls have to be made. If the person in question is considered to be a danger to others in the community then they can not in good conscience release that person in to the general community. It's not always about being punished, and not all states can afford the infrastructure required to support people with severe mental problems.

In large communities decisions need to be made that are in the best interests of the entire community, in this situation the needs of the individual will always be secondary to the needs of the greater community.

 

[Oz67]

Looking at morality from only one perspective always leads to injustice.

Things that need to be taken in to consideration are often conflicting and sometimes tough judgement calls have to be made. If the person in question is considered to be a danger to others in the community then they can not in good conscience release that person in to the general community. It's not always about being punished, and not all states can afford the infrastructure required to support people with severe mental problems.

In large communities decisions need to be made that are in the best interests of the entire community, in this situation the needs of the individual will always be secondary to the needs of the greater community.

That makes sense

I am sorry if I was wrong, I hope that my point is good from my heart.

 

[Outdated]

It's all good. Most people think about things from a personal perspective first and need a little prompting to step back and look at the wider issues. It's a complex world we live in and nothing is ever easy.

 

[Judge]

Seems to parallel the question of whether or not it's ethical to treat drug addicts exclusively as criminals. An issue often compounded with the severity of a crime in question.

That if their situation more accurately reflects a "victimless crime" that there is a greater likelihood of them getting more favorable attention to care and treatment rather than incarceration alone.

However in any case there are no guarantees given the scope of how a legal system chooses to dispense justice in terms of both victims and perpetrators. Keeping in mind (see above) that indeed, it's a "complex world" we live in.

 

[Oz67]

Seems to parallel the question of whether or not it's ethical to treat drug addicts exclusively as criminals. An issue often compounded with the severity of a crime in question.

That if their situation more accurately reflects a "victimless crime" that there is a greater likelihood of them getting more favorable attention to care and treatment rather than incarceration alone.

However in any case there are no guarantees given the scope of how a legal system chooses to dispense justice in terms of both victims and perpetrators. Keeping in mind (see above) that indeed, it's a "complex world" we live in.

I agree

 

[AspieChris]

The narcissist, the psychopath, and anyone else who has ever walked the planet knows when they have severely hurt someone and it’s wrong because they hide their crimes. Sometimes the only way to stop tomorrow’s criminal is to show him that today’s criminal got a severe and painful result from breaking the rules. That’s the basis for our criminal justice system.

BUT today it is smeared with politics, money, and fear. Good people can lose everything because of a single mistake. Rich people get away with murder because they can afford the best attorneys. And sick people go to jail when they really just needed help.

It’s a broken system.

 

[Stuttermabolur]

I think it's important to make a clear distinction between narcissistic personality disorder and clinical psychopathy. While both of them are viewed negatively by society at large, narcissistic personality disorder is a personality disorder, so it is shaped by previous experiences and can be treated, though it might be the most difficult one to deal with. Psychopathy, and where the line lies between it and antisocial personality disorder has been debated for decades. However, brain scan experiments over the last decades have indicated that classical psychopathy is not a personality disorder, but a developmental disorder, similar to autism. In other words, it's another form of neurodiversity. While the behavior can be modified, and psychopaths can be taught, the underlying neuronal pathways can't be "fixed".

 

[Oz67]

The narcissist, the psychopath, and anyone else who has ever walked the planet knows when they have severely hurt someone and it’s wrong because they hide their crimes. Sometimes the only way to stop tomorrow’s criminal is to show him that today’s criminal got a severe and painful result from breaking the rules. That’s the basis for our criminal justice system.

BUT today it is smeared with politics, money, and fear. Good people can lose everything because of a single mistake. Rich people get away with murder because they can afford the best attorneys. And sick people go to jail when they really just needed help.

It’s a broken system.

That is what I am talking about.

 

[Oz67]

I think it's important to make a clear distinction between narcissistic personality disorder and clinical psychopathy. While both of them are viewed negatively by society at large, narcissistic personality disorder is a personality disorder, so it is shaped by previous experiences and can be treated, though it might be the most difficult one to deal with. Psychopathy, and where the line lies between it and antisocial personality disorder has been debated for decades. However, brain scan experiments over the last decades have indicated that classical psychopathy is not a personality disorder, but a developmental disorder, similar to autism. In other words, it's another form of neurodiversity. While the behavior can be modified, and psychopaths can be taught, the underlying neuronal pathways can't be "fixed".

That is a good point to consider.

 

[AspieChris]

.

That is what I am talking about.

Is the question moot if there’s nothing we can do to fix a broken system? I don’t mean to sound heartless and I hope I don’t find myself or someone I care about tangled within a broken legal system, but what can I do to help it become better?

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Is it moral to punish and put people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder or Antisocial Personality Disorder with psychopathic features in jails or prisons instead of forensic correctional facilities?

First of all, jails or prisons don't have excellent training to handle those two personality disorders correctly if it is severe or profound, even if a prison psychiatrist or psychologist is trying to help severely mentally ill prisoners fix their thoughts and conduct.

Another issue is that people with severe or profound Narcissistic Personality Disorder or severe or profound Antisocial Personality Disorder with psychopathic features might be legally sane and competent to stand trial. Still, they have this strange nihilistic delusional view of this world. When they commit crimes, many also have a delusion that rules don't apply to them, due to disregard for right and wrong, and also black and withe thinking, with no grounds for the middle ground.

I hope you guys understand where I am coming from with this issue.

In the US, they are put into the correctional facilities, if they've committed crimes. If they haven't, then they tend to "fly under the radar" and do not have access to mental health services and are part of the general population, often times undiagnosed until they come in contact with the law.

Is it moral to actively seek out these individuals and place them in correctional and/or mental health facilities? It's not what you do, but how you do it, but there was a time when this was the case, moral or not. You reported them to the local authorities, a van showed up, and they were taken away. There was a time when these individuals were seen as a threat to public safety, but someone, at some time, was able to convince the decision-makers that they weren't.

 

[Oz67]

In the US, they are put into the correctional facilities, if they've committed crimes. If they haven't, then they tend to "fly under the radar" and do not have access to mental health services and are part of the general population, often times undiagnosed until they come in contact with the law.

Is it moral to actively seek out these individuals and place them in correctional and/or mental health facilities? It's not what you do, but how you do it, but there was a time when this was the case, moral or not. You reported them to the local authorities, a van showed up, and they were taken away. There was a time when these individuals were seen as a threat to public safety, but someone, at some time, was able to convince the decision-makers that they weren't.

That is an interesting perspective

 

[Oz67]

.

Is the question moot if there’s nothing we can do to fix a broken system? I don’t mean to sound heartless and I hope I don’t find myself or someone I care about tangled within a broken legal system, but what can I do to help it become better?

We can figure out something, don't worry

 

[WhitewaterWoman]

I think it's important to make a clear distinction between narcissistic personality disorder and clinical psychopathy. While both of them are viewed negatively by society at large, narcissistic personality disorder is a personality disorder, so it is shaped by previous experiences and can be treated, though it might be the most difficult one to deal with. Psychopathy, and where the line lies between it and antisocial personality disorder has been debated for decades. However, brain scan experiments over the last decades have indicated that classical psychopathy is not a personality disorder, but a developmental disorder, similar to autism. In other words, it's another form of neurodiversity. While the behavior can be modified, and psychopaths can be taught, the underlying neuronal pathways can't be "fixed".

With all due respect, NPD is a personality disorder and a developmental disability that cannot be fixed at this time with the knowledge and skills that we have. People with NPD are do not have empathy nor a conscience. They are extremely good at camoflaging this, however.

For as yet unknown reasons, the proper development of empathy and conscience in people with NPS stops maturing at some stage during childhood. They literally never grow up.

People with NPD do not see themselves as needing help and do not want to accept help because they don't need it.

 

[thejuice]

They tried rehabilitiating psychopaths with LSD and therapy in the hippie era with predictably disastrous results. I dont know if the same results of rehabilitation would apply with NPD and APD, It would take a lot of evidence to persuade me. Doesnt sound like it with NPD at least.

 

[thejuice]

Is it moral to actively seek out these individuals and place them in correctional and/or mental health facilities? It's not what you do, but how you do it, but there was a time when this was the case, moral or not. You reported them to the local authorities, a van showed up, and they were taken away. There was a time when these individuals were seen as a threat to public safety, but someone, at some time, was able to convince the decision-makers that they weren't.

The problem I speculate was how do you prove they have the disorder if they dont consent to seeing a psychiatrist. I suspect it might have been a moral question of whether it is fair to incarcerate someone based on speculation.

 

[Oz67]

With all due respect, NPD is a personality disorder and a developmental disability that cannot be fixed at this time with the knowledge and skills that we have. People with NPD are do not have empathy nor a conscience. They are extremely good at camoflaging this, however.

For as yet unknown reasons, the proper development of empathy and conscience in people with NPS stops maturing at some stage during childhood. They literally never grow up.

People with NPD do not see themselves as needing help and do not want to accept help because they don't need it.

That is interesting.

 

[Oz67]

The problem I speculate was how do you prove they have the disorder if they dont consent to seeing a psychiatrist. I suspect it might have been a moral question of whether it is fair to incarcerate someone based on speculation.

That makes sense.

 

[Oz67]

They tried rehabilitiating psychopaths with LSD and therapy in the hippie era with predictably disastrous results. I dont know if the same results of rehabilitation would apply with NPD and APD, It would take a lot of evidence to persuade me. Doesnt sound like it with NPD at least.

That makes sense.