Questions about God's actions toward believers vs. non-believers

[Magna]

I've been doing a bit of Biblical research. There are various passages about how God bestows his favor on believers and how God's "curse is on the house of the wicked" and how God "mocks proud mockers" and "fools get only shame" in relation to non-believers.

The question I have relates to the lives of believers vs. non-believers. When a person who previously believed then stops believing, their life doesn't change in any noticeable manner. Their daily life doesn't change, they don't generally start to have a whole slew of bad things happen to them, etc. There is no common, widespread similar experiences of former believers having noticeably obvious, significant and uncharacteristic misfortunes, etc.

If God were to treat non-believers differently while they're alive on earth in contrast to how God treats, helps, etc believers, there would be a noticeable difference. There isn't.

If God doesn't treat non-believers any differently while on earth than believers, than what is God doing for believers on earth?

 

[jsilver256]

Great question. Before I can engage, I'd like to know your definition of "treating" believers differently, what your expectations of God treating us in our earthly lives are, and on what basis you base these expectations on.

The Apostles were homeless, tortured, and for the most part died horrible deaths.

 

[Magna]

Great question. Before I can engage, I'd like to know your definition of "treating" believers differently, what your expectations of God treating us in our earthly lives are, and on what basis you base these expectations on.

The Apostles were homeless, tortured, and for the most part died horrible deaths.

From a Biblical perspective:

Ps 68:6: "God makes a home for the lonely; He leads out the prisoners into prosperity. Only the rebellious dwell in a parched land.”

Ps 23:6: "Surely goodness and lovingkindness will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.”

It's a commonly held belief that "God's favor" rests on, is given to, etc believers while they're alive on earth (in addition to possible Salvation after they die).

 

[jsilver256]

Well, it's not clear if you're coming from the perspective of material wealth, or spiritual wealth... but I'll assume from the material wealth basis with a focus on physical health.

Ephesians 1:3 states -

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ

But does that mean God is promising us material blessings? Well... Ephesians was written from prison, so there you go.

God does not have the same value on health and material success that we do. I already wrote a post earlier today about how God refused to heal Paul of his "thorn" (disability).

As another example, Jesus would not heal in certain circumstances:

And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household." And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief.

If the focal point was the health of people, well, Jesus should have occupied all of his time for healing. But he did not. Why? The purpose of healing is to bring glory to God. It is not to "cure" others.

The story of someone who overcomes trials and tribulations is far more authentic, and inspirational, than a Harrison Bergeron who goes around telling everyone to believe hard enough and they'll too be just like him.

For example. I can't speak. I can't hear. I resented this so much as a young adult. But I've came to seen that this has, in several senses, granted me a far more powerful tongue than a person who might otherwise be a perfect physical specimen.

The point is, God does not heal because of favor. Otherwise he would've healed Paul ten times over. The reason he heals, is to get others to believe in him. And that is a somewhat rare circumstance, because his more typical approach is to show perfection in weakness.

All the instances where Jesus healed, brought more believers. When the crowd's reverence turned into wanting to see the Magic Man perform more tricks, he flat-out refused to perform more healing - because at that point it would have been counterproductive to the goal of bringing more believers.

In my father's case, when my father shared the news of his cancer, I was crying so hard because I was so sure that he was not going to see the baby. The baby I had not told of him yet, that I was going to tell him about.

I told him on the spot that I was pregnant and he got the strangest expression on his face.

He told me - the Holy Spirit said to me, that I will be cured. And I will hold and care for your baby, my grandchild, and laugh.

I, still being an atheist, appreciated the sentiment but shrugged it off.

When his promise was fulfilled, I was no longer an atheist. God made this happen not to heal him. But to make me believe. It was the spiritual equivalent of getting smacked by a 2x4.

You may want to take a look at Romans 6 for what God does truly promise us - freedom from sin.

And here I stand, (mostly) free from alcohol, pride, and so many other things. I am not "richer." I am not "healthier." But I am a changed person per the promise of Romans 6 and Hebrews 12.

Hope this answers your question.

 

[Magna]

Well, it's not clear if you're coming from the perspective of material wealth, or spiritual wealth... but I'll assume from the material wealth basis with a focus on physical health.

Ephesians 1:3 states -


But does that mean God is promising us material blessings? Well... Ephesians was written from prison, so there you go.

God does not have the same value on health and material success that we do. I already wrote a post earlier today about how God refused to heal Paul of his "thorn" (disability).

As another example, Jesus would not heal in certain circumstances:


If the focal point was the health of people, well, Jesus should have occupied all of his time for healing. But he did not. Why? The purpose of healing is to bring glory to God. It is not to "cure" others.

The story of someone who overcomes trials and tribulations is far more authentic, and inspirational, than a Harrison Bergeron who goes around telling everyone to believe hard enough and they'll too be just like him.

For example. I can't speak. I can't hear. I resented this so much as a young adult. But I've came to seen that this has, in several senses, granted me a far more powerful tongue than a person who might otherwise be a perfect physical specimen.

The point is, God does not heal because of favor. Otherwise he would've healed Paul ten times over. The reason he heals, is to get others to believe in him. And that is a somewhat rare circumstance, because his more typical approach is to show perfection in weakness.

All the instances where Jesus healed, brought more believers. When the crowd's reverence turned into wanting to see the Magic Man perform more tricks, he flat-out refused to perform more healing - because at that point it would have been counterproductive to the goal of bringing more believers.

In my father's case, when my father shared the news of his cancer, I was crying so hard because I was so sure that he was not going to see the baby. The baby I had not told of him yet, that I was going to tell him about.

I told him on the spot that I was pregnant and he got the strangest expression on his face.

He told me - the Holy Spirit said to me, that I will be cured. And I will hold and care for your baby, my grandchild, and laugh.

I, still being an atheist, appreciated the sentiment but shrugged it off.

When his promise was fulfilled, I was no longer an atheist. God made this happen not to heal him. But to make me believe. It was the spiritual equivalent of getting smacked by a 2x4.

You may want to take a look at Romans 6 for what God does truly promise us - freedom from sin.

And here I stand, (mostly) free from alcohol, pride, and so many other things. I am not "richer." I am not "healthier." But I am a changed person per the promise of Romans 6 and Hebrews 12.

Hope this answers your question.

I don't just mean corporal favoritism (e.g. physical health). I mean in general, life as we live it.

We're humans, each of us living our human lives as we know and experience them. It would make no sense for all the passages speaking of favoritism toward believers to be referring to what God can only know/what we're incapable of knowing; nor would it make sense if the "favors" are purely speaking of rewards in the afterlife. Like, "God favors believers because, Heaven (ie Heaven is the singular "favor" being referred to in all of those passages)"

I'll think about this more. I don't think I'm explaining the points I'm trying to make in a clear manner.

 

[jsilver256]

I'll think about this more. I don't think I'm explaining the points I'm trying to make in a clear manner.

I think that's a good idea, because I'm not sure what you're trying to communicate here. God's idea of bestowing favor is very different than how humans measure the quality of their earthly lives. Health, wealth, career, success etc rarely enter the equation. So I'm honestly not sure what you mean by God treating unbelievers or apostates differently, because the transformation is internal.

I recommend reading Hebrews 12 and Romans 6 as these do a great job of explaining what God does promise believers.

 

[Magna]

because the transformation is internal.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "internal"? Specific examples of what happens when a person has an "internal transformation"?

 

[jsilver256]

I have never been able to "willpower" myself to stop sinning. I'm awful, lazy, undisciplined that way.

People think that:

good works + faith = salvation

When it actually is:

faith = salvation + good works

So, the internal transformation is instilling a genuine change of heart.

I think this comic sums it up well.

This post sums up my 4-year journey as a Christian.

 

[DrBadStrings]

If God doesn't treat non-believers any differently while on earth than believers, than what is God doing for believers on earth?

The short cynical answer is nothing.

Imaginary beings are incapable of acting in reality. Might as well ask what Zelda has done for folks on earth.

Now the non cynical answer would be that the idea of a belief in God simply brings comfort to believers. It removes a certain amount of doubt and existential dread from their lives.

 

[jsilver256]

Imaginary beings are incapable of acting in reality

I have a folder in my closet of my father's medical records.

My father had Gleason stage 10 prostate cancer. I forgot what the odds are, but something like 96% die within 6 months.

He told me the same day I was going to tell him I was pregnant with his grandson. But he "upstaged" me I guess.

That's when he told me that the Holy Spirit told him he would be cured and he'd hold my grandson. I was an atheist and I didn't believe him of course.

Well... I have copies of the scans of when it metastasized to his bones and when it was 100% clear, taken a couple of months apart. Ask the doctors, and they'll probably say there was a mixup or whatever. He's still alive 7 years later and still cancer-free.

The key here, God intervenes to glorify his works and to get others to believe in him - not to ease sufferings.

God didn't heal my father because he wanted to extend my father's life.

God healed my father for my sake - to get this atheist to believe in God.

 

[DrBadStrings]

I have a folder in my closet of my father's medical records.

My father had Gleason stage 10 prostate cancer. I forgot what the odds are, but something like 96% die within 6 months.

He told me the same day I was going to tell him I was pregnant with his grandson. But he "upstaged" me I guess.

That's when he told me that the Holy Spirit told him he would be cured and he'd hold my grandson. I was an atheist and I didn't believe him of course.

Well... I have copies of the scans of when it metastasized to his bones and when it was 100% clear, taken a couple of months apart. Ask the doctors, and they'll probably say there was a mixup or whatever. He's still alive 7 years later and still cancer-free.

The key here, God intervenes to glorify his works and to get others to believe in him - not to ease sufferings.

God didn't heal my father because he wanted to extend my father's life.

God healed my father for my sake - to get this atheist to believe in God.

Unfortunately I am not ever going to accept that as proof of a god. Glad your father recovered. But I don't, and won't believe God or God(s) were involved. Correlation does not equate causation.

 

[WhitewaterWoman]

Transformation is difficult to articulate. I don’t see it as God bestowing favors on someone. More that it is pleasure of the grace that infiltrates one’s life when one follows the path of living in the Light.

Many, many years ago there was an article in the Washington Post about a lawyer who spent all of his time and energy working to save the lives of people on Death Row. He had minimal personal possessions. His apartment looked like a monk’s cell. He lived alone and did not spend much, if any, time with family or friends.

I do not remember his name, but I do remember what he said when asked why he lived this way. He said,

“Because I feel the pleasure of God.”

 

[All-Rounder]

I see no difference because there is none to account. As a religious non-believer I am disciplined the same within my religious tenets as well as outside of them, but the religious tenets are second nature because my religion is based on being myself within the knowledge and research of human beings, and I get the same living benefits on the same planet as believers. Although it opposes a lot of nature to look for facts and swim against the current, as well as adapt that need for boundless faith into realistic expectations, understand cause-effect if I have goals.

As generally, when God was discovered not to be on Mt Olympus, God switched places and went higher out of human reach, in the skies. God is elusive and will adapt, in other words humans will continue to move and change their hopes as they find more knowledge so they can grow into more accurate predictions or to keep their deep hopes, wishes and desires untouched. Change is hard and regretful. Change of mind is even more shocking.

A lot of stuff in the world is scary, we are carefree as toddlers and then we grow up to realize danger, news, robberies, death of our group or our supportive family members. To deal with it we need the prospect of continued meetings in the afterlife, the security of a perfectly supportive life and we'd do anything for it as it's been seen with suicidal religious adepts for example the mass suicide event on that island and murderer ones for example continuous terrorism from Islamists towards all races that were not chosen, outsiders of the specific religion. People suicide like my father and murder on blind faith, and many need zero evidence of it actually being true.

I've seen a lot of arrogance from self proclaimed prophets that claim that God is speaking to them, and they control other people into doing "God's bidding" and a lot of bad stuff has been done through these means. It's really easy, anyone can claim they're contacted by God and that what they want is God's will. A lot of abuse happens through this abuse of power, I hear about women's husbands using this claim often to control family outcomes, some guy got his wife to take him to Disneyland because it was God's will when the children were struggling due to finances, it's really disgusting what is happening and I wish it would be prevented.

And by the way, why would God contact that man personally like he's Moses and not a higher up in the church, a spokesperson, someone more dedicated to the cause? That's just arrogance and it so easily blinds people once someone claims divinity.

It's always mysterious ways and so people choose to close their eyes for salvation and deny the truth that's right in front of them. And when you reject reality you can no longer be rooted in it, but in what you are being told.

 

[Rachie]

I saw an awful story once on a general board. There was one man who was looking for a sign of God as a non believer atheist. He wrote though that he used to be a Christian and was now an atheist. They wrote that in their earlier days as a Christian it was like they had felt a presence admittingly, but since they had abandoned their faith for decades as no longer a Christian they didn't feel anything anymore. I found this without doubt very sad and you don't even want to clue it together. If someone had walked away from their faith, God continues to love them, but the union and promises are not being upheld. Hopefully God can meet that person again.

God continues to be righteous to his followers and will uphold them. My life hasn't been perfect, but I am happy as me and for what God has done for me.

Look at this story of a saint who levitated.
St Joseph of Cupertino - Catholic Medical Association
The Holy Spirit has the power to lift someone up like that without doubt. This was a wonderul Saint with learning disabilites.

I looked at two of Magna's recent posts when she posted. I had no words, my days of academia are decades away and I was scratching my head a bit like Oli from Oli and Hardy for a while.

The last few days for me has been testing at times. Today I said to myself for things that some people attempt to charge God with. God was doing it as a righteous father and got no enjoyment from it at all. Some parents appear remorseful after they discipline children etc.

 

[Rachie]

This was the thread I was writing about. The thread went on for 140 pages can you imagine but said a lot in the first post, but they appeared not to see it. I post very irregularly on that forum if at all. The man seemed very nice and I went back today and found out they no longer was a member. I wish them the best.
Give Me A Sign. Please. (hell, churches, Revelations, prophet) - Religion and Spirituality -Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Atheism, God, Universe, Science, Spirituality, Faith, Evidence - City-Data Forum

 

[Captain Caveman]

I've been doing a bit of Biblical research. There are various passages about how God bestows his favor on believers and how God's "curse is on the house of the wicked" and how God "mocks proud mockers" and "fools get only shame" in relation to non-believers.

The question I have relates to the lives of believers vs. non-believers. When a person who previously believed then stops believing, their life doesn't change in any noticeable manner. Their daily life doesn't change, they don't generally start to have a whole slew of bad things happen to them, etc. There is no common, widespread similar experiences of former believers having noticeably obvious, significant and uncharacteristic misfortunes, etc.

If God were to treat non-believers differently while they're alive on earth in contrast to how God treats, helps, etc believers, there would be a noticeable difference. There isn't.

If God doesn't treat non-believers any differently while on earth than believers, than what is God doing for believers on earth?

(This is nothing personal against anyone and I am writing this to help anyone who may need it and to explain some things to those who may not know).


I would question if the person claiming they believed and now does not ever had the spiritual rebirth and recieved the Holy Spirit as ones life will take on a whole new meaning if one has. (Even those who have done this and ended up turning away will believe in God as they have had a closeness to God that can not be found by saying one believes because one was brought up to believe...

(I hope this makes sense?)

Those who say they were believers and then decide they are no longer believers in God, will be the ones who never had the spiritual birth and never went on to recieve the Holy Spirit and the gifts.

Yes, ordinary life is somewhat ordinary in the day to day tasks one may do, BUT there is a rather large change in the lives of those who have had the spiritual birth... Such a change that one can not then deny God exists, as one has come into contact with God!

Many churches in the modern days have become "The dead preaching to the dead" who reason away the gifts or reason away the new spiritual birth. (I am not criticizing anyone because each only knows what one knows at the time, so if leaders have never had that spiritual birth, no matter how many times they have read the Word of God and no matter how highly qualified they may be, if they have missed the whole point in the New Covernant in what Jesus granted us access to..., then one has missed the whole concept about what the Scriptures are pointing to! A daily walk with God just like Adam and Eve had before sin entered!
Put it this way. How could Adam or Eve say there is no God? They can't. They walked daily WITH God.

Today, so few people walk with God and there is such a rejection and denial that God exists... Yet every single one of us who reaches the point where we hear Jesus knock... We can either open the door and recieve Him in, or we can say no, or deny we heard that knock.

I am not saying "You (Or anyone else) MUST believe" as God gives us the freedom to chose... And belief in itself needs a shove in the right direction for it to make sense or we will miss it! It is like saying to someone "There's the President", and we may believe the President exists, BUT if we don't look in the right direction and walk towards him even if he calls us and stands there with open arms, then we will miss him. (I am talking theory here).
Now the same with us. We have to be ready when Jesus knocks and faith is the bit that starts us looking for Him! It does NOT mean we have found Him!

Ok.. Going back a decade or so, the Lord sent us to Gloucester. We had never been there before, and we looked at the various things we could see as we walked round wondering why we were there. I very much noticed the railway station with the longest platform I had ever seen! (Was split into two platforms due to its length). But then we saw the big cathederal, and my Mum asked the Lord "How many people that worship there can hear His voice?"
The Lord answered and said "Six". Just six people at the time in all the many people who were associated with that massive cathederal one could say were walking with the Lord! The rest thought they were and would claim they had faith, but had never made the next step and recieved that life changing spiritual birth!

No one is greater than the other! We are all humans and we all have the ability to walk with God if we seek his face! And I certainly can't force anyone to make that choice, and while I may realize those who do not want to walk with God are missing out on the reason why God had them created, God wants us to freely accept Him and not be forced...
(There are religions out there that just don't get this concept and take people astray to become inward seething pots of hate towards anyone who is not like them, and one can even find this amongst Christianity by those with deep inward frustrations becsuse they don't get what the scriptures are all about because they never reached that point of discovering the new spiritual birth!)

So how do we recieve this spiritual birth? (Known as being "Born Again" after the way Jesus described it when asked).
It is simple. So simple, many people miss it!

The first part I will say is those who have doubts if they believe that God exists just pray "God, if You exist, show me" and wait for God to demonstrate to you His presence! (It may be straight away or may take time. Be patient! I know that with me, the times I have doubted I have asked and God DOES respond, often in ways we could not habe dreamed of! I remember the scripture "Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief!)

When we are ready, we pray a very simple prayer (Prayer is simply us speaking to God in the same way that if I met you, I would speak to you) and say "Lord Jesus. Show me the cross!"
(The cross is where Jesus took our sin! I often go straight to the next bit and skip that but for some reason for someone reading I felt to say it).
"Lord Jesus, I am sorry for my sins and I know that You died for me, to take away my sins! I repent of my sins. Please enter into my heart".

You will begin to feel a change. Some people don't feel it but know a change has taken place. Remember the birth is the beginning of your walk.

Then later one can recieve the Holy Spirit which for some comes at the water baptism but for others like me came before. Is a spiritual baptism. I have heard of people being baptized before they have that spiritual birth and they don't recieve the Holy Spirit as they are jumping ahead, so when they do finally recieve that spiritual birth and know that they have, they get baptized again!

Something I want to say about my life and what happened for me.

I thought I believed and knew there was something special about the Bible, but it was tough to read and didn't really make sense.
Now there came a time in my teenage life (And can happen at any age in ones life.. For me I was around 13) that I knew Jesus was knocking... I felt the urge to become born again, after God sent someone to speak to me telling me how to have this spiritual birth. I was too scared to do it in school, so I went into my bedroom on my own after school and prayed and there and then asked Jesus into my heart, and the change began! Before that date, if you asked me if I was a Christian, I would say "Yes"... I never knew there was something more!
From that day on, when I opened the Bible, it was as if when I read it it was alive! It was dead to me before that time and a struggle to read, so to be honest, I rarely bothered. But now, suddenly after that event, it was like being in the dark trying to read, and suddenly someone had switched on the light and I could see! It came "Alive" to me!
When I got baptized in the Holy Spirit (Two years before I was water baptized), it was like a further dimention became open to me! Now when I read the Bible, it is like reading a 3D book, as I can see things on multiple levels!
I hope this makes sense?
I have NEVER had any other book that I have ever read (Including briefly reading Bibles of other religions or sects... They just feel "Dead!" (Tried reading the Jehovas Witness Bible and the book of Morman and they have NO life to them! Spiritually dead and I found a brief look at the Koran to be the same and I am not saying this to upset anyone. I am just saying what I found)).
BUT the key to the Bible is the Holy Spirit who unlocks the door to truth!

Anyway. That is all I need to write, and I leave it in the readers hands to decide for themselves what they want to do. God bless!

 

[Rachie]

(This is nothing personal against anyone and I am writing this to help anyone who may need it and to explain some things to those who may not know).

Amazing post Captian Caveman and I read every word.
It was quite a scary thing the way the person who I linked to like decades after leaving the faith wrote they can no longer feel the prescence of God that they felt decades ago as a Christian.
It was like so the the Holy Spirit was no longer in their lives or so active in their lives, which would have been so sad. It took to 138 pages to point out to them what they used to recieve. Very strange thread and well I don't post their anymore. Jesus didn't permit everywhere for his followers to visit.

 

[jsilver256]

From that day on, when I opened the Bible, it was as if when I read it it was alive! It was dead to me before that time and a struggle to read, so to be honest, I rarely bothered. But now, suddenly after that event, it was like being in the dark trying to read, and suddenly someone had switched on the light and I could see! It came "Alive" to me!

I had the exact same experience. When you are not a believer, it is like reading through a funny lenses. Just a big slog of words that don't quite make sense. And of course you make all the same trite arguments like "God loves slavery" "Paul was a meany" "James and Paul hated each other" etc.

I love the Bible now and it all comes together in a comprehensive whole.

John 1 is the most amazing chapter, IMO. Especially when considering the original Greek.

 

[jsilver256]

Amazing post Captian Caveman and I read every word.
It was quite a scary thing the way the person who I linked to like decades after leaving the faith wrote they can no longer feel the prescence of God that they felt decades ago as a Christian.
It was like so the the Holy Spirit was no longer in their lives or so active in their lives, which would have been so sad. It took to 138 pages to point out to them what they used to recieve. Very strange thread and well I don't post their anymore. Jesus didn't permit everywhere for his followers to visit.

Let me tell you Rachie. At one point I would have said I was an atheist, an ex-Christian who left the faith.

I had excellent reason to leave the faith. My youth group was caught up in a molestation ring and the church tried to cover it up.

The reason I was actually not a Christian then is because, even then, although I said all the right things like the Pharisees, I had zero love for Jesus. I had zero interest in reading the Bible. I attended youth group, sure, but the most interest I had in Jesus was praying for good grades, wealth, whatever. I didn't actually enjoy the Bible.

Coming to Jesus at age 40 or so, I opened the Bible and fell in love with it immediately. And started reading it everyday. By that time, I'd also gotten a lot of experience in understanding others' writings - and most people can't keep their own narrative or points straight for 20 pages, let alone 40+ authors across thousands of years. I could see the message, and the miracle within the message.

 

[Rachie]

Let me tell you Rachie. At one point I would have said I was an atheist, an ex-Christian who left the faith.

I had excellent reason to leave the faith. My youth group was caught up in a molestation ring and the church tried to cover it up.

The reason I was actually not a Christian then is because, even then, although I said all the right things like the Pharisees, I had zero love for Jesus. I had zero interest in reading the Bible. I attended youth group, sure, but the most interest I had in Jesus was praying for good grades, wealth, whatever. I didn't actually enjoy the Bible.

Coming to Jesus at age 40 or so, I opened the Bible and fell in love with it immediately. And started reading it everyday. By that time, I'd also gotten a lot of experience in understanding others' writings - and most people can't keep their own narrative or points straight for 20 pages, let alone 40+ authors across thousands of years. I could see the message, and the miracle within the message.

I read your post some time ago and I thought your future is with God.

I would say you was a bit of a dark horse. I think I recall you write that your dad was a methodist minister but I do not want to bring questions to you. You are a ministers daughter. I have seen some ministers their children go onto to become one and some didn't and had very different paths. I don't know where your interests are.

I know some church's are quite dominant about healing and coming from my background it might be slightly similar. My parents church circle would often try and cure my conditions and add pressure with it with some fervour. Simply put I don't know if there is expectation for you to do a full recovery .

I think also a minister should know how to cover his family in pray. Simply put God hand may have been on more than on your father with his watchful eye before you came to him. Certainly you are precious in the sight of God. God promises can extend for generations.

I wish you well on your journey.