Retromod Computers

[Judge]

Just curious. See the image of my old computer case that used to host Windows 7 and 10. Now completely empty.

Up to now I was thinking of using the case to house my next computer build. However note the upper left area where an ATX motherboard would normally go. Note that the back of the panel is not open. Meaning the distance between the panel and the outer case is not much thicker than the depth of the brass standoffs used. By modern standards it remains a narrow case. -Maybe too narrow for today's components.

My question? With modern CPU coolers, would it be far too risky to use one with attachments underneath the motherboard that could potentially be touching the back of the panel the motherboard is attached to? Would that spook most of you who are builders?

My first blow came when I discovered I only had 155mm of space for the Noctua cooler I wanted, which is 158mm deep. Now I'm wondering if this solid panel prevents me from even considering most any CPU cooler based on how they are attached from the back of the motherboard. Modern cases all have that space open, allowing for more complex and bulky attachment devices employed, especially on much "beefier" coolers.

Though I can't help but recall that the CPU cooler on this computer was the same I had inside this old case. A CoolerMaster cooler that is exactly 155mm deep. Never had any issues with shorting out the motherboard or anything else, but then that was an older version of the Hyper 212 cooler. And that perhaps using a more modern one is surely to have more bulk in how it attaches from behind. Or is it?

Also another "minus" in this equation is that the case allows for only one intake fan and one exhaust fan. Perhaps not enough airflow with a 12th gen. CPU and GPU. But I still crave those now obsolete 5.25 and 3.5 drive bays for hardware peripherals no longer en vogue.

Otherwise it seems far more prudent to go with a modern case like the Fractal Design Pop Air ATX. A modern case with two 5.25 drive bays. Perfect to house a DVD drive and my Icy Dock Removable SSD. A case with excellent airflow for a 12th, 13th or 14th gen. cpu. Using slow but multiple RPM fans to keep the airflow up but reduce overall noise in the process.

Oh boy. I just discovered I was looking at specs that weren't exactly the model of cpu cooler I thought I had. The one by name "Hyper 212 Plus" is an older model, but according to their website it too is 158.5mm.

https://www.coolermaster.com/catalo...per-212-plus-with-fan-bracket/#specifications
Looks like I may have to reassess the idea of using this case. But whether or not two 120mm fans would be sufficient to create positive airflow is anyone's guess. Aided only by an overhead fan sucking air into the power supply which would help, but would it be enough? Hmmm. The Pop Air ATX still sounds more attractive- and safer to consider.

One thing for sure, CoolerMaster's own product websites cite the old cooler I used in this case as being 158mm in depth, while the actual case accommodated that same 158mm cooler. Yet their product webiste for the CMP-350 case states "maximum capability" at 155mm/6.1 inches in depth for any cooler. WTH?

https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/legacy-products/cases/cmp-350/#specifications
It may ultimately not be worth the risk of buying a quality $90 CPU cooler only to find that for whatever reason (plus or minus some three millimeters) that it may not fit in my old case. Ugh....I just wish I could confirm that CoolerMaster is correct with both its legacy cooler and case. As for a new cooler from Noctua, I seriously doubt their posted specs are in error. I suppose I could get a smaller cooler, but I'm digging my heels in when it comes to Noctua coolers and fans. Overpriced, but worth it. Also just thought of how I'd rather have a modern case that houses the power supply in a separate shroud at the bottom, than snug at the top. After all, this old case has no ventilation on the top at all.

https://noctua.at/en/nh-u12s-chromax-black/specification
And to think this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to all the considerations one must make these days to build a PC. Much more difficult than it used to be.

 

[Outdated]

Just buy a decent full sized case and be done with it. No mucking around measuring everything first, no skinned knuckles trying to fit everything in, no sharply bent cables because you have no room between drive bays and ram.

Black looks better than beige anyway.

 

[Aspychata]

Yes, but l think Judge actually enjoys the logistic part of trying to fit it all in, it's the challenge of it. Why do anything in a simple format? When you can turn it into a uber complicated schematic? And it gives you more bragging rights.

 

[Outdated]

Sometimes I've wondered about skipping a case altogether and buying a test bench instead. In many ways it's much more practical.

 

[Outdated]

Unless you have cat hair floating everywhere.

I don't need a cat, I have enough trouble with my own hair getting everywhere.

 

[Judge]

Oddly enough I thought of one other alternative. Noctua makes a slightly smaller CPU Cooler. Only 125mm high. Though it may be too small to handle occasionally bigger loads.

Partpicker.com shows it's compatible with my CPU and motherboard. But it's not as robust as I want. I think I'll just stick with plan b and get the Fractal Design Pop Air ATX case. It would solve all these problems relative to space and fit, and still have excellent air flow.

Plus it has one modern feature I never experienced before with earlier cases- cable management. The chance to make so many cables neat and tidy to match my OCD.

The Pop Air "Silent" is interesting, but you pay for that quiet case through higher temperatures. Think I'll have to pass on that one as well.

https://www.amazon.com/Noctua-NH-U9...ords=noctua+cpu+cooler&qid=1709075952&sr=8-10

 

[Judge]

One thing that really concerns me though is the grill of the Fractal Design Pop Air ATX case. It's not really a fine mesh, which is precisely what I need here in the High Desert. Otherwise that very fine white dust can likely intrude into the chassis all too often. My present case has a fine mesh filter behind a grill, and it serves me well in that capacity. But there aren't too many cases with such features.

Oh the humanity! At least I don't have to be in any hurry about this. But it's just not as fun as it used to be.

I may end up using my old case after all. No matter what case I consider, I don't see myself getting any other CPU cooler than the Noctua model I mentioned earlier. If I get it first, at least I can experiment and truly see if it can in fact fit into my old case, which used to contain a Cooler Master Hyper 212 Plus cooler. Which technically is slightly deeper by some 3.5 millimeters compared to the Noctua NH-U12s cooler. If it fits and in fact doesn't physically touch any metal of the back of the case, I may go ahead with "Plan A" using a retromod computer case. Nominal airflow in theory, but half the air intake of the Pop Air ATX case. And a whole lot less dust going inside the case in comparison. Decisions, decisions.

 

[Judge]

It just occurred to me that as far as I know there are at least two, maybe even three different lengths of standardized threaded brass standoffs that allow a motherboard to be secured to a case that won't cause a short circuit.

And that perhaps with computer cases, when they cite their depth allowable (in millimeters) for a CPU cooler, that they may be a little off to compensate for the depth of one brass standoff versus the other. And that in my old case, it uses what I think are 4.5mm standoffs rather than the deeper 6mm ones. Maybe this explains why my old Cooler Master Hyper 212 Plus CPU cooler at 158.5 mm fit into my old Cooler Master CMP-350 case in the first place. And that if so, a new Noctua NH-U12S cooler at 158mm should technically fit the old case as well.

Or is this just wishful thinking? The one possible unknown being whether or not the back of that Noctua cooler might be touching the back of my computer case. In theory it should clear it completely. But then the mounting devices of one CPU cooler is not usually the same as an another. Even if I can manage to mount the Noctua cooler to the new MSI motherboard, I'm still not clear if I'll be able to see if the back of the cooler does in fact clear the back of the case.

I realize that I still may have the alternative of simply picking a CPU cooler that is slightly smaller, or quite different. But when it comes to thermodynamic considerations, it's difficult for me to stray from Noctua, who consistently makes some of the best coolers and fans on the planet, IMO. Just happy I have the time to work such problems...lol.

I still have a small stock cooler that came with my Intel i5 12400F CPU, but I take a very dim view of Intel stock coolers in general. Thermodynamics in my mind require optimal solutions...not nominal ones. At least not with 12,13 and 14th generation CPUs, that simply run too hot when pushed.

I'm also reassessing whether or not to improve gaming potential on my new system. Meaning a much more robust GPU, maybe a 3060Ti...something like that. Turns out that i512400F is more powerful than I thought. But if I do, that again increases the thermodynamics.

Meanwhile I still cringe at the security vulnerability of Microsoft Windows in general. Ugh....

 

[Levitat0r]

Just curious. See the image of my old computer case that used to host Windows 7 and 10. Now completely empty.

Up to now I was thinking of using the case to house my next computer build. However note the upper left area where an ATX motherboard would normally go. Note that the back of the panel is not open. Meaning the distance between the panel and the outer case is not much thicker than the depth of the brass standoffs used. By modern standards it remains a narrow case. -Maybe too narrow for today's components.

My question? With modern CPU coolers, would it be far too risky to use one with attachments underneath the motherboard that could potentially be touching the back of the panel the motherboard is attached to? Would that spook most of you who are builders?

My first blow came when I discovered I only had 155mm of space for the Noctua cooler I wanted, which is 158mm deep. Now I'm wondering if this solid panel prevents me from even considering most any CPU cooler based on how they are attached from the back of the motherboard. Modern cases all have that space open, allowing for more complex and bulky attachment devices employed, especially on much "beefier" coolers.

Though I can't help but recall that the CPU cooler on this computer was the same I had inside this old case. A CoolerMaster cooler that is exactly 155mm deep. Never had any issues with shorting out the motherboard or anything else, but then that was an older version of the Hyper 212 cooler. And that perhaps using a more modern one is surely to have more bulk in how it attaches from behind. Or is it?

Also another "minus" in this equation is that the case allows for only one intake fan and one exhaust fan. Perhaps not enough airflow with a 12th gen. CPU and GPU. But I still crave those now obsolete 5.25 and 3.5 drive bays for hardware peripherals no longer en vogue.

View attachment 127147

Otherwise it seems far more prudent to go with a modern case like the Fractal Design Pop Air ATX. A modern case with two 5.25 drive bays. Perfect to house a DVD drive and my Icy Dock Removable SSD. A case with excellent airflow for a 12th, 13th or 14th gen. cpu. Using slow but multiple RPM fans to keep the airflow up but reduce overall noise in the process.

Oh boy. I just discovered I was looking at specs that weren't exactly the model of cpu cooler I thought I had. The one by name "Hyper 212 Plus" is an older model, but according to their website it too is 158.5mm.

https://www.coolermaster.com/catalo...per-212-plus-with-fan-bracket/#specifications
Looks like I may have to reassess the idea of using this case. But whether or not two 120mm fans would be sufficient to create positive airflow is anyone's guess. Aided only by an overhead fan sucking air into the power supply which would help, but would it be enough? Hmmm. The Pop Air ATX still sounds more attractive- and safer to consider.

One thing for sure, CoolerMaster's own product websites cite the old cooler I used in this case as being 158mm in depth, while the actual case accommodated that same 158mm cooler. Yet their product webiste for the CMP-350 case states "maximum capability" at 155mm/6.1 inches in depth for any cooler. WTH?

https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/legacy-products/cases/cmp-350/#specifications
It may ultimately not be worth the risk of buying a quality $90 CPU cooler only to find that for whatever reason (plus or minus some three millimeters) that it may not fit in my old case. Ugh....I just wish I could confirm that CoolerMaster is correct with both its legacy cooler and case. As for a new cooler from Noctua, I seriously doubt their posted specs are in error. I suppose I could get a smaller cooler, but I'm digging my heels in when it comes to Noctua coolers and fans. Overpriced, but worth it. Also just thought of how I'd rather have a modern case that houses the power supply in a separate shroud at the bottom, than snug at the top. After all, this old case has no ventilation on the top at all.

https://noctua.at/en/nh-u12s-chromax-black/specification
And to think this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to all the considerations one must make these days to build a PC. Much more difficult than it used to be.

Not sure there's enough information given. What I think I learned is to make thorough use of and to fully populate the board spacers so that you don't ground out any traces against the case. It might seem common sense to some, but I would greatly hesitate to try to hotplug anything into the board when it's in any way powered, because it flexes, and you run the risk of shorting it.

 

[Judge]

Not sure there's enough information given. What I think I learned is to make thorough use of and to fully populate the board spacers so that you don't ground out any traces against the case. It might seem common sense to some, but I would greatly hesitate to try to hotplug anything into the board when it's in any way powered, because it flexes, and you run the risk of shorting it.

Agreed, I always use the maximum amount of standoffs usable relative to the motherboard. In this case, all nine of them. Whatever it takes to prevent such shorts. But I'm still concerned about the cooler and whether it can make contact with the rear of the case, given it's an older design without the cutout that most modern cases provide.

 

[Levitat0r]

Agreed, I always use the maximum amount of standoffs usable relative to the motherboard. In this case, all nine of them. Whatever it takes to prevent such shorts. But I'm still concerned about the cooler and whether it can make contact with the rear of the case, given it's an older design without the cutout that most modern cases provide.

Chances are that the cooler and the case are common-grounded, but I suppose it's not guaranteed.

 

[Judge]

Chances are that the cooler and the case are common-grounded, but I suppose it's not guaranteed.

If I do buy the Noctua cooler regardless of what case I finally use, I figure I can physically hold a 4.5mm standoff up to whatever device affixes the cooler from the back. Hoping to "eyeball" the issue, to conclude whether or not it is too close to the depth of the standoff. If so, I figure it would be in my best interest to decline using my own case. In theory they should be grounded, but I'd rather not take any chances.

Mixing such new and very old components in close proximity could prove precarious.

 

[Outdated]

If so, I figure it would be in my best interest to decline using my own case. In theory they should be grounded, but I'd rather not take any chances.

I'm happy with my latest, Thermaltake V100. Harddrives and powersupply are in the bottom box section, vented separately from the board and components.

 

[Levitat0r]

I'm happy with my latest, Thermaltake V100. Harddrives and powersupply are in the bottom box section, vented separately from the board and components.

View attachment 127194

View attachment 127195

They've certainly made progress since the failure of their lesser known "Thermalmake" line.

 

[Judge]

At least I found a video that provides a much clearer view and assembly of the Noctua CPU Cooler's backplate. Though I'll still have to test-fit it to both my MSI motherboard and the old Cooler Master CMP350 case to see if the cooler fits properly in terms of both it's width across the case, as well as whether the backplate is not touching the outer case. Looks like I will still be dealing with tight tolerances even if it does fit properly in the old case.

So if the cooler doesn't fit, I'll simply move onto buying a very different, but up-to-date case. Likely something from Fractal Design's "Pop" series. Interesting to see tests show their "silent" case isn't much warmer than their "air" case under load. But both have two 5.25 drive bays at the front bottom of the case. One for my DVD drive and the other for my removable SSDs by Icy Dock. I may use the NVMe drives on the motherboard later, but for now regular SSDs will be fine, and allow me to run as many operating systems as I want compared to only two using a dual -boot method through the bios.

I'd rather have the case fit the cooler. Can't go wrong with Noctua when it comes to thermodynamics.

 

[Judge]

Discovered my brass standoffs are exactly 6mm in length. Better still, I decided to test them out in my old Cooler Master case, and was pleased (and a little surprised) to see that my new motherboard fits perfectly into that old case.

Since it does fit perfectly, I can only surmise that those 6mm standoffs are precisely what should be used in the first place. So it should be simple deduction to measure the backplate and bolts of the Noctua CPU Cooler to verify that there is a little space to spare so it isn't directly against the case. Better still was to discover that the big VRM heatsinks on this new MSI motherboard will not interfere with a power supply directly above. Something that has concerned me since coming up with this plan.

So...I guess once I get my Noctua CPU Cooler, I can determine once and for all whether or not it's feasible to use my old case and make this a "retromod" project as I originally intended. Though whether or not having only one intake fan, one case exhaust fan, two for the video card and one exhaust fan for the power supply for adequate airflow may still prove to be a crapshoot in a relatively small space. We shall see. The CPU Cooler at 158mm must still be able to clear the side of the case itself. But then the previously CPU cooler in this case with the same standoffs is supposed to be 158.5mm. LOL...whatever! If it all works, I can always upgrade to a more modern case later. If not, I'll just be getting that new case sooner.

 

[Judge]

Interesting. I finally found an online article addressing some of my concerns involving someone with a slightly different Cooler Master case, but with the same concerns of a cpu cooler backplate potentially touching the inside of the case.

Some seemed to think if the two objects are separated by as little as .5mm of space that it wouldn't be a concern. Others sounded like even if they are physically touching it won't matter. I was even thinking that I might put rubber pads with adhesive backs on the areas where the backplate of the cooler may be close to the surface of the case. Though in looking at the holes drilled out on the motherboard for all backplates and mountings, they seem completely clear of all metal connections. That the entire backplate would be grounded. Seems to make sense.

Knowing my motherboard fits so precisely with 6mm brass standoffs leads me to logically believe that present and early cpu cooler backplates would be likely to clear my case. Not to mention those brass standoffs were from my original Cooler Master CMP-350 case.

https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/cpu-cooler-touching-case.1809176/
As far as whether the cpu cooler heatsink might be too deep for this case, I started looking at another Noctua CPU Cooler, the NH-U9S. A slightly smaller cooler that has a heatsink that is more cube-like in shape and would be some 20mm less than the larger Noctua cooler I was contemplating.

I am also looking at a decently rated cooler that isn't a Noctua, but is around 152mm which should fit the case. The ID-Cooling A410. (The price disparity of Noctua products is starting to irk me.) They do make fabulous cpu coolers, but the competition has been gaining on them for years.

 

[Judge]

Yeah. The Noctua NH-U9S CPU Cooler. Expensive, yes. But look at its reduced and compacted size relative to an MSI motherboard, using a 92mm fan instead of a 120mm fan. In these cases sometimes a huge heatsink might also be an obstruction to airflow. Makes me wonder when a larger cooler and heatsink would take up such large area inside a case from one side to the other. Potentially robbing proper airflow throughout the case.

Then consider it coupled with an Intel i5 12400F cpu. Seems like a near-perfect match if just for occasional gaming. Deliberately built not to set the world on fire, but to satisfy my relative daily computer needs. No more, no less- but with superior and compatible components.

And I like how it completely clears the M.2 NVMe SSD directly below the cooler. (So many over-sized cpu coolers tend to overhang and almost eclipse M.2 drives). Making it difficult to install or remove the drive.

 

[Judge]

(The price disparity of Noctua products is starting to irk me.) They do make fabulous cpu coolers, but the competition has been gaining on them for years.

Looks like my obsession over thermodynamics is going to pay off in a big way. I had no idea just how right I was about the above statement I made earlier. Not until I stumbled onto a company called "Thermalright" and their "Assassin" line of cpu coolers.

What a silly name for a product- "assassin". Until I realized that some executive in Taiwan probably has a fabulous sense of humor. So who exactly is the target of this "assassination"? -Noctua, which consistently manufactures some of the best cpu coolers on the planet. And a company that resembles the Apple Corporation in terms of having a keen, but greedy sense of knowing what they offer to the market, at outrageous prices.

So where does "Thermalright" come into this picture? Simple point. If you examine so many endless geeks comparing metrics relative to temperature, load and noise regarding cpu coolers, you'll find their products listed in such charts as usually being just below or just above so many of Noctua's coolers. So what makes Thermalright so interesting? Unlike Noctua, they are taking an opposite approach to their product.

Case and point: I was hot to purchase Noctua's NH-U12S chromax.Black cpu cooler. A 120mm fan connected to a single-tower heatsink that is 158mm in height. Fabulous specs, but technically too tall for my "retromod" Cooler Master CMP-350 case. Amazon price: $89.95.

Then I came across Thermalright's line of "Assassin" cpu coolers. Realized how well they all seem to stack up against Noctua's more limited, but amazing line of products. Finding one quite comparable to the Noctua cooler mentioned above. The Thermalright Assassin X120 Refined SE. Not quite as immaculate looking as their Noctua counterpart, with a slightly higher noise output (25.6dB). Yet in other metrics it either matches or exceeds that of Noctua. Most importantly, this cooler is only 148mm in height, operates at only 1550rpm and uses a 120mm fan. And it even clears access to the M.2 SSD on my motherboard! Not quite as pretty, but in the most practical sense it gets the job done.

As stated above I ultimately was going settle for a smaller Noctua cooler (NH-U9S chromax. Black) that was around 135mm high, but with a 92mm fan that spun at 2000rpm. The look and smaller size was great for my case. However for the same reasons, a smaller fan operating at a higher speed inevitably puts out more noise at a higher load, consistent with demands like gaming, 3D rendering and video production. With plenty of comments from purchasers who liked the quietness of this cooler, while acknowledging the noise when their cpu was pushed into higher loads and higher electrical output in wattage. The cost: $69.95.

I couldn't use the original 120mm Noctua cooler without gambling that it might fit. All while paying an enormous price for it. I'd be getting the cooling power I need, plus the lowest noise output, along with a flawlessly black finish. And while Amazon packages the product, it is sold directly from Noctua. Making any prospects of RMA (Return Merchandise Authorization) a potentially "sticky" matter if it didn't fit.

So, back to the 92mm Noctua Cooler. The smaller, but really cool-looking cooler that spins faster to account for the smaller size, makes more noise at load and above all, costs $69.95 (Amazon).

Now let's review that Thermalright Assassin X120 Refined SE cooler. With a 120mm fan that spins at 1550rpm. Only 148mm high and fits my case. With a noise rating 25.6dB compared to Noctua's 22.8dB. Numbers reflecting maximum loads. But spinning at a slower rpm rate, combined with a much larger fan and airflow means that it is more likely to cool your cpu much more, much faster and avoid the dreaded "throttling" that happens when a cpu gets too hot. And the operating threshold for this cooler is an astounding 225 watts. (When the operating threshold of the Intel i5 12400F is a maximum of 117 watts on turbo mode under maximum load. Otherwise nominal operation is 65 watts.) A huge reason for choosing this mid-range cpu instead of a power-hungry and unnecessary overheating monster.

One other thing. Oh yeah....about the price of this Thermalright cooler. OMG. -$ 19.90.

"If it looks too good to be true, it probably is." A saying I know well. However having done enough due diligence in researching cpu coolers, I've come to the conclusion that Thermalright's metrics are consistently competitive with Noctua. So much so that it makes the purchase of Noctua products absurd, short of those of us who truly have money to burn.

Noctua wants what Thermalright offers at four and a half times the cost. Granted, the Thermalright Assassin line of coolers isn't as pretty as Noctuas. But then like most any other retromod case, it will be sealed on every side. No fragile tempered glass window to exhibit any silly RGB bling, no flashing lights or other wasted power. Just practical requirements met, well above and beyond what I need.

This sort of thing in this age of inflation and ripoffs doesn't happen very often, if at all.

https://www.amazon.com/Thermalright...28832011&s=electronics&sr=1-12&ts_id=11036281

 

[Judge]

As it turned out, on further thought I elected to go with the Noctua cooler after all. I should have it shortly.

The Thermalright cooler had specs somewhat beyond the Noctua cooler, but it had one thing that continued to make the whole proposition potentially precarious relative to my retromod project. A bigger cpu cooler allows for greater cooling. However with a traditionally sized 120mm fan, it takes up a huge amount of space in this case. Which wasn't an issue when it housed an mATX motherboard with a cpu that is 45% less powerful than the cpu I intend to install in the retromod case with a full-sized ATX motherboard.

With considerations of greater heat with a more current cpu, while a powerful cooler is needed, so is adequate ventilation. If I went with the Thermaltake cooler I'd get more cooling power, but it would fill so much of the case where there will already be concentrations of heat from the GPU underneath, as well as the power supply directly above. I figure I needed a way to disperse this greater amount of heat. That's where the smaller Noctua cooler comes in. It provides much more room above and below to accommodate the heat of my power supply and GPU.

And this time around I will make use of 4-pin PWM fans so I can control their speeds through the BIOS.

Thermodynamics, thermodynamics, and lastly thermodynamics. Which has always been important for any computer, but today with these ghastly hot running cpus and gpus, I feel one must go an extra mile to accommodate them more than ever before. Just another reason for opting to use a cpu (i5 12400F) that has nominally uses 65 watts, with a turbo speed rating of 117 watts. Which hopefully results in my everyday computer use of operating in a range between 30 to 50 degrees celcius. And hopefully any light gaming that won't surpass 75 degrees celcius.

Funny to look back and know that with all my previous computers I built, that I never applied so much thought to each and every component as I am now. But then past systems didn't use cpus capable of cooking your next meal or setting your house on fire.