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Saving the world with carbon dioxide removal

AGXStarseed

Well-Known Member
(Not written by me)

Peter Wadhams is professor of ocean physics in the Department of Applied Mathematics and Theoretical Physics at the University of Cambridge, U.K.

CAMBRIDGE — Limiting global warming to 2 degrees Celsius above preindustrial levels, as the countries of the world committed themselves to do under the Paris climate accord, is impossible without removing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. Even the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which set the Paris goals, concedes this. But the panel has neglected to suggest how to do it.

If we want to survive climate change, we must double down in research manpower and dollars to find and improve technology to remove carbon dioxide — or at least reduce its effects on the climate. We now emit 41 billion tons of carbon dioxide per year. The current level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is already high enough to bring about a warming of more than 2 degrees after it has worked its way through the climate system, so if we want to save the Paris accord, we must either reduce our emissions to zero, which is not yet possible, or combine a significant emissions reduction with the physical removal of about 20 billion tons of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere per year indefinitely.

As I outline in my book, “A Farewell to Ice,” this is because we have a carbon dioxide “stock-flow” problem: temperature rise is closely associated with the level of the gas in the atmosphere (the stock), but we are only able to control the rate at which new gas is emitted or removed (the flow). Carbon dioxide, unlike methane, persists in the atmosphere for hundreds of years, so even if we reduce our emission rate, the level of the gas will keep going up. At the moment, measurements show that this carbon level increase is exponential — it is accelerating.

Currently, the best way to save our future is to remove carbon dioxide through direct air capture, a process that involves pumping air through a system that removes carbon dioxide and either liquefies it and stores it or chemically turns it into a substance either inert or useful. Enterprising researchers have already developed systems that work by passing air through anion-exchange resins that contain hydroxide or carbonate groups that when dry, absorb carbon dioxide and release it when moist. The extracted carbon dioxide can then be compressed, stored in liquid form and deposited underground using carbon capture and storage technologies.

The challenge here is to bring the cost of this process to below $40 per ton of carbon removed, since this is the estimated cost to the planet of our emissions. At the moment, most methods cost more than $100 per ton, but there are dramatic developments which promise great improvement. Three companies have opened pilot plants — Global Thermostat (United States), Carbon Engineering (Canada) and Climeworks (Switzerland).

Climeworks is the trendsetter. After building a small plant which fed absorbed carbon dioxide into a greenhouse, they have opened a small-scale commercial plant in Iceland. This is aimed to remove 1,000 tons of carbon dioxide from the air per year and pump the carbon dioxide, with water, down into basalt rocks underground, using Iceland’s abundant geothermal power as a source of energy. Here the carbon dioxide is literally turned to stone — it mineralizes rapidly because of the type of rock and the pressure. The carbon dioxide, turned to stone, is out of the planet’s energy system for millions of years. This is an enormous breakthrough.

Even in Houston, the home of the oil industry, climate innovation is taking place. In October, using an approach called the Allam cycle, a company called NET Power opened a plant that burns natural gas to produce power, but it captures all the carbon dioxide produced because the carbon dioxide is itself the working fluid — a new concept. This is not carbon drawdown but is a totally renewable energy source based on a fossil fuel.

In theory, cooling air so as to liquefy its carbon dioxide content could also be used to remove it. This could involve setting up plants on high polar plateaus such as Antarctica or Greenland but has yet to be investigated.

A compelling criticism of carbon removal is that it discourages us from even trying to reduce our carbon dioxide emission levels and instead shifts our focus to unproven “emit now, remove later” strategies. It doesn’t help that the unfortunate reality is that as a global population, especially in the West, we are reluctant to give up the comforts and conveniences of a fossil fuel world. Climate change will not wait for us to become more enlightened.

Effective and impactful carbon dioxide removal operations will need to be in place by around 2020. To keep global temperature rise within acceptable limits, we’ll need to remove half the current human emissions, which means extracting about 20 billion tons of carbon dioxide each year, indefinitely. If we can manage this, we can save our society and our children’s futures. After all, if carbon dioxide is the chief cause of climate change, its removal would be our salvation.

This is an exciting time. The Iceland and Houston plants show us that man’s ingenuity, when turned loose on the problem of getting carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere, can achieve success and maybe save the world from the plight into which our misapplied technology of the past has cast us. We just need to spend more — a lot more — on helping this process along. If we don’t, then in 20 or 30 years, the world will be a different and much nastier place than it is now.

This was produced by The WorldPost, a partnership of the Berggruen Institute and The Washington Post.



Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...issions/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.a1c1485e0730
 
The runaway greenhouse effect was proven to be an extremely unlikely scenario years ago.

That's why all the greedy profiteers have switched to "Climate change".

Even the oldest oil on Earth is a mere 150 million years old, which means that 150 million years ago every bit of CO2 in oil was... well... stuff. Animals, plants, etc.

If they really want to save the future generation, they should instead stop going into debt to fund all of this nonsense. Plant some trees and stop eating cows, pigs and chickens and you can burn all the oil in the world. Or put this money into research for fusion power. But this is not about results, it's about siphoning money away.
 
@AloneNotLonely,
Unfortunately, your mathematics, or avoidance of them, is erroneous.
1 gallon of gasoline creates 19.6lbs
of CO2 at the tailpipe.
22.4 lbs per gallon of diesel.
12.7 lbs per gallon of ethanol.
2.9 s. tons, per ton of coal.

The average car emits about six tons of carbon dioxide every year.
Last year, all the world's nations combined pumped nearly 38.2 billion tons of carbon dioxide into the air from the burning of fossil fuels such as coal and oil.

The upward limit of carbon that a tree can absorb is @48 lbs/yr.
An approximate value for a 50-year-old oak forest would be 30,000 pounds of carbon dioxide sequestered per acre.

An active person exhales about 1 kg of CO2 per day. So, you would need 1000 square meters of grass to absorb one person's CO2.

I'm sorry, but your arguments are
rapidly running out of room.
 
Last edited:
Somewhere there must be a planet that needs CO2. Maybe we could put up a big sign in space, or paint it on the side of the moon. 'CO2 for Sale, Real Cheap!'
 
Somewhere there must be a planet that needs CO2. Maybe we could put up a big sign in space, or paint it on the side of the moon. 'CO2 for Sale, Real Cheap!'

Well apparently Mars needs CO2 if we ever work on terraforming it - the CO2 Mars currently has isn't enough.
 
@AloneNotLonely,
Unfortunately, your mathematics, or avoidance of them, is erroneous.
1 gallon of gasoline creates 19.6lbs
of CO2 at the tailpipe.
22.4 lbs per gallon of diesel.
12.7 lbs per gallon of ethanol.
2.9 s. tons, per ton of coal.

The average car emits about six tons of carbon dioxide every year.
Last year, all the world's nations combined pumped nearly 38.2 billion tons of carbon dioxide into the air from the burning of fossil fuels such as coal and oil.

The upward limit of carbon that a tree can absorb is @48 lbs/yr.
An approximate value for a 50-year-old oak forest would be 30,000 pounds of carbon dioxide sequestered per acre.

An active person exhales about 1 kg of CO2 per day. So, you would need 1000 square meters of grass to absorb one person's CO2.

I'm sorry, but your arguments are
rapidly running out of room.

Your math is useless here. Coal and oil do not create CO2. They simply release what they contain when burned in the eco system. Also, first you talk about an oak and then you talk about grass? And grass is not a great absorber of CO2 per hectare because... you know... you might as well have soy or wheat there to produce food as well, but it's not even the absorption of CO2 that really matters. What matters is having a lot of biomass that contains Carbon, when it's in animals and trees it can't be in the atmosphere. Something such as wheat that grows as tall as maybe a toddler (well maybe a bit taller) doesn't contain a lot of biomass. This is the entire reason we grow it! It provides a lot of energy for very little actual mass.

And you talk about math, yet you use unscientific units of measurement. Nobody knows or cares what pounds are, whenever you talk about calculating you use metric because we need everyone to know what we mean rather than use an archaic unit of measurement that only 1 country in the world uses. Didn't you nearly blow up the ISS because of this nonsense? You also mix acres and square meters, pounds and kilograms. Dude, pick a damn side. It sounds like you have no idea what you are talking about and you just quoted some politician.

All you need to know is that a 150 million years ago there was no oil. All of the CO2 was in the atmosphere, animals and plants. We can burn all of the worlds oil, and as long as we put it back into it's original form (plants and animals) there is no problem.

But there is a problem because people insist on eating burgers, and covering the entire planet in soy, wheat and pig farms wouldn't create enough biomass to hold all that CO2. Forests can easily hold all this CO2 just by covering a fraction of the planet. The Amazon rainforest alone holds like 300 billion tons of CO2. Windmills cost more oil in maintenance then they put out in energy and nuclear power plants eventually just blow us all to kingdom come while drowning us in radioactive waste in the meantime. We can cover the deserts in solar, but that won't be enough energy. Eventually we burn all of the planets oil, no matter if it takes 50 or a 100 years. All of the CO2 will eventually end up back in the ecosystem in another form, no matter what you do.

This proposal creates an unnecessary middle man. We have Oil > CO2 > Trees. Now it turns into Oil > CO2 > Expensive subsidized machinery > uhhh... bricks of CO2? Pigs? Trees?! Grass?!!

Just turn it into trees right away, sheesh.
 
Typical.
Because you don't know how the
meal is made, you complain about the utencils.
If you are unfamiliar with the units used,
there exists a plethora of programs and formulas to help you make the adjustments.
That is, if you aren't too busy lobbying for
the abandonment of all but one language on the planet.
I simply added the grass statement as a comment on the futility of that smaller(and destructive, to be sure,) biomass's incapability.

The burning of fossil fuels does create
CO2. (Elemental carbon, and CO2, are
very different substances). All carbon was not CO2. However, most of the carbon released by the burning of fossil fuels does
become CO2.
You seem to be lacking, somewhat, in the chemistry and physics as well as biology and mathematics departments.
I'll make this simple for you:

You speak only of the fast carbon cycle-
the carbon traded, moved, and shuffled
between living organisms and the environment. You seem to be unaware of the difference between the fast and slow carbon cycles, and human emissions of CO2.
Through a series of chemical reactions and tectonic activity, carbon takes between 100-200 million years to move between rocks, soil, ocean, and atmosphere in the slow carbon cycle. On average, 10 to the13th (power), to 10 to the 14th grams (10–100 million metric tons) of carbon move through the slow carbon cycle every year. In comparison, human emissions of carbon to the atmosphere are on the order of 10 to the 15th grams, whereas the fast carbon cycle moves 10 to the16th, to 10 to the 17th grams of carbon per year.
Please note that these weights are of elemental carbon;
they do not reflect the weight after binding with oxygen.

There are far greater amounts of carbon that have never been part of anything biological on this planet sequestered in stone, that the fast carbon cycle does not
affect or account for.
Unfortunately, lichens exist.
This huge biomass has no other purpose
than to digest rock, releasing it's elemental carbon.
Unfortunately, carbonic acid, present in rain-water, exists. This carbonic acid essentially
melts rock, releasing huge amounts of carbon, which eventually binds with oxygen, forming CO2.

If you are going to argue, in this arena,
at least educate yourself.
Your above post is so rife with misinformation, disinformation, falsehoods,
and outright lies, that I will not even attempt
to address most of it.
Your short-sightedness, lack of understanding and responsibility,
and desire to oversimplify that which you do not understand offends all but the
2% of scientists that are monetarily
corruptable.
This is a classic case of ego altering fact
in order to cater to desire.

Please, please, study.
Please join those of us for whom
life on this planet means more than a couple of percentage points to our bank accounts.
If we are wrong(we are not) profits(possibly) suffer, or disappear.
If you are wrong, (human) life suffers, or disappears, and existing life on the planet
is changed by our arrogance and greed.
We. Do. Not. Have. That. Right.

If not, here's an idea:
Since the entire world is "duped" into
believing that human caused climate
change is very real, do what a real
capitalist would do,
Cash in on it.
Move your capital and investments where
you can profit from the idea. Get rich on renewable energy. Get rich on pioneering
carbon reduction and sequestering.
Get rich on clean air technologies.
Get rich on any of the myriad plans extant to do any of the above.
That's what a real capitalist would do:
instead of complaining about the changing
status quo, a real capitalist would forge
headlong into such a promising marketplace.
Fossil fuels will run out.
Look forward now.
Get a jump on your competitors.
I thought you were concerned with profit.
I thought that you fancied yourself good at this.
I'm going to apologize to you, not for anything informational, but for my
tone and cynicism.
It's not too late, my friend.
You can still abandon that faulty
ideology.
And I truly hope that for generations to
come, your descendants have clean air
and water, and safe, green, wide open
places to play in.
 
Oh sheesh. I knew you wouldn't understand. The argument you used is similar to the one I heard in a joke once. So you literally turned a joke into an actual argument. The joke was something like "Aerodynamics proves Bumblebees can't fly". Since Bumblebees fly, and we all see them fly, this is obviously not true. Since oil used to not exist, and the Earth was completely fine with all the carbon elsewhere there's no issue if this carbon is turned back into trees. Which is not what we are doing. We are turning oil into carbon and trees into pigs and soy plantations. This is the problem. A few machines that chew up carbon are not going to save us in a world where soy has to provide us with our oxygen.

Why would I invest in companies that live off tax money? Apart from being terribly unethical (Something you seem to be against, but perhaps only when it suits you?) it's also incredibly risky, since politicians will change their stance in a heartbeat if they notice someone else willing to give them a bigger bribe.

This last post was especially silly. "But there's Carbon in other stuff too!". Yes I know. I've had basic chemistry in school, you know. Wow there's diamonds and stuff. We don't burn diamonds for energy, we burn oil. And oil used to be plants and animals. If you burn it off, and turn it back into plants and animals... then there's no issue. Even sillier is how this machine that you seem to love, does the exact same thing trees do. Except it's uglier and more expensive.

Also funny how you act as if I am the problem. Have you ever heard of carbon footprints? Yea... mine's nearly nonexistent. Go look up the carbon footprint of a vegan that never drinks soda or eats junkfood, that doesn't fly or drive, never buys luxury goods and uses around 300 m3 of gas and 400 KwH for all energy needs. Other people are the problem, I have no need to be a consumerist zombie and as such I probably have a carbon footprint 1/10th of the average "OMG Let's save the planet, but first we should have an avocado burger before protesting against water shortage in the third world!" hypocrite.
 
There is a much easier fix. If humans would stop breeding like rabbits and quit eating animals, this would be a non-issue. Most are unwilling to do either, so scientists are now tasked with dealing with the environmental consequences of human selfishness. We’re a species that really just needs to go extinct sooner than later. We’ve been a disaster to this planet.
 
There is a much easier fix. If humans would stop breeding like rabbits and quit eating animals, this would be a non-issue. Most are unwilling to do either, so scientists are now tasked with dealing with the environmental consequences of human selfishness. We’re a species that really just needs to go extinct sooner than later. We’ve been a disaster to this planet.

Elites do want plebs to stop eating animals. There's been a reoccurring media push to promote an amazing idea of getting plebs to eat insects for their protein source. I'm totally on board with the idea under the following non-negotiable condition:

  • We see verifiable and certain proof (not lies) that policy makers, elites, etc stop eating animals and adopt a diet of eating bugs exclusively for a period of at least five years to practice what they preach prior to the same practice being adopted by the masses. Without this condition being met, I'll just continue to laugh at the notion for the offensive joke that it is.
 
Elites do want plebs to stop eating animals. There's been a reoccurring media push to promote an amazing idea of getting plebs to eat insects for their protein source. I'm totally on board with the idea under the following non-negotiable condition:

  • We see verifiable and certain proof (not lies) that policy makers, elites, etc stop eating animals and adopt a diet of eating bugs exclusively for a period of at least five years to practice what they preach prior to the same practice being adopted by the masses. Without this condition being met, I'll just continue to laugh at the notion for the offensive joke that it is.

Hedgehogs eat bugs all the time, and you never hear them complaining. Maybe we should give it a try.
 
Hedgehogs eat bugs all the time, and you never hear them complaining. Maybe we should give it a try.

For me: See bullet point condition above. The "we" giving it a try will first have to be those who suggest that everyone adopt the practice and for the period specified or I'm not interested in the least.
 
Is there any reliable, definitive study that compares the carbon footprint of feeding 6 billion people with plants, as opposed to feeding people with high protein animal products as a supplement to plant foods?

I think you can grow a heck of a lot of "meat" in a smaller area than the amount of monoculture crops such as soy and corn needed to provide an equal amount of protein. Such a comparison should include an evaluation of the cost to ship plant products and meat products to parts of the world where people need them. For example, meat is probably the mainstay of the Alaskan diet. They cannot grow sufficient plants in the short time afforded by the climate to feed themselves throughout the year. But they can hunt and eat animals year round. I'd love to see a reliable analysis of the two approaches.
 
These arguments have been in full force at least since I was a child in the 70s. It seems to me the window for debate is closed and we ran out of time.
The only real answer was to curtail populations sharply and all of us go back to subsistance life styles without electricity or plastics or fancy gadgets, priuses, Teslas and fast fashion. We didn't do it. We doubled down on raping the earth of resources and patting our backs for vast corporate gaslighting.
Sorry gents, no one really wants to solve it.
Esentially we are like a morbidly obese person thinking the will loose weight and get fit by adding a salad to their dinner. The only real fix is to stop eating!
 
I'm 41. I have went to bars now and then, some clubs depending on the situation, and in the gents restroom occasionally there is a hot tap running. I can't say for certain but it seems to me this happens a little too often to be an accidental thing where people mistakenly leave it running.
 
For me: See bullet point condition above. The "we" giving it a try will first have to be those who suggest that everyone adopt the practice and for the period specified or I'm not interested in the least.

I was actually just kidding. No way will I ever eat bugs! Yuck.
 
I'm 41. I have went to bars now and then, some clubs depending on the situation, and in the gents restroom occasionally there is a hot tap running. I can't say for certain but it seems to me this happens a little too often to be an accidental thing where people mistakenly leave it running.

You mean like there’s a clandestine network of anarchists who turn hot water faucets on in bars at strategic locations all over the country?
 

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