Sexual Orientation in Animated Disney films aimed at kids

[Mr Allen]

Topic.

I recently read on Facebook that the forthcoming sequel to Disney's Frozen will feature the Elsa chatacter from the first one, only this time Disney are planning to make the character a gay.

Don't get me wrong I'm not homophobic, I just don't think it's suitable for the target audience.

Thoughts?

 

[Judge]

You've never seen Disney's "Lady and the Tramp" ?

To my knowledge it's never been unusual to see things like heterosexual affection, attraction, courtship and marriage in childrens' programming.

Why would it be any different for homosexual equivalents in this day and age?

Or do you fundamentally object to features like "Lady and the Tramp" ?

Simple point, regardless of sexual orientation. Depicting characters having sexual identities is not the same as depicting them having sex. Childrens' programming often deals with sexual identity alone. Nothing new about that.

Though I could see any number of social conservatives pushing for banning of any sense of sexual identities in childrens' programming. Which would probably prove something between awkward and impossible to screenwriters. After all, drawing naked cartoon characters without genitals is easy. Making them sexually ambiguous could be a bit more difficult.

Even the Tasmanian Devil had his female counterpart.

 

[Bolletje]

I don’t see why it wouldn’t be fit for the target audience. It’s not as if they’re planning to feature graphic sex scenes. Showing loving relationships to children seems exactly like the right thing to be doing and I think relationships in Disney films should reflect all of society, not just (mostly white) heterosexuals. It’s the best way to instill acceptance for others from a young age onwards, in my opinion.

 

[Misery]

I don’t see why it wouldn’t be fit for the target audience. It’s not as if they’re planning to feature graphic sex scenes. Showing loving relationships to children seems exactly like the right thing to be doing and I think relationships in Disney films should reflect all of society, not just (mostly white) heterosexuals. It’s the best way to instill acceptance for others from a young age onwards, in my opinion.

Aye. Definitely don't see the problem. I mean, if you had characters just going at it right on the pavement there all the time, that'd be a problem, but you could say the same about heterosexual pairs too.

Beyond that, it's mostly irrelevant. It's the sort of thing that "just is", as far as the overall story goes, and if people don't like it, well... tough. They can go see a different movie. Or walk into a signpost, that works too.

I mean, one way or another, kids gotta learn that being different aint horrible, and that sort of thing, but constantly hiding things from them just reinforces the idea that it IS horrible.

 

[NothingToSeeHere]

Disney has always depicted romantic relationships, I don't see it as less appropriate just because Elsa falls in love with a woman instead of a man, it's still just romance. In fact I think it will be great for children to see non hetero relationships in their films, just as they are going to encounter them in real life.

 

[Iamnotarabot]

Don't get me wrong I'm not homophobic, I just don't think it's suitable for the target audience.

Probably, they tend to forget that some parents go with their children to see this type of movie and they might say no to this one, but sequel always get backlash so this time they will have a reason to blame the audience lol, it reminds me of all the debate around other movies like ghostbusters remake.
Having the main characters being compassionate towards a minority is a good lesson to everyone that parents would like to show to their children, but having main characters of your story being LGBTQ is something else ,some parents may fear that their kids would relate to them and they dont want them to see that, so they reduce their potential audience.


Personnaly I wont realy care, the funny thing is that I want to see how they will show a "gay" romance for kids that wouldnt be interpreted by the kids just as a friendship, without going too far in details lol.

 

[SunnyDay16]

I'm indifferent about it. With that being said though, I think it would be beneficial for companies like Disney to represent gay relationships and non-straight orientations in a realistic manner. It doesn't have to have graphic sex to be realistic. It's 2018 after all, and same-sex couples can now marry so it certainly wouldn't hurt Disney to get with the times.

There's never been a lot of LGBT representation in the media and the representation that exists is usually ridden with stereotypes and bad writing. The rest is restricted to subtext. This isn't too surprising since much has changed in terms of societal views about sexual orientation and the majority of the world is straight.

 

[Fino]

I'm sorry to break it to you like this, so suddenly and from a duck and all, but you actually are homophobic.

 

[Iamnotarabot]

but you actually are homophobic.

You didnt get the point of the topic, he said it might reduce the potential audience of the movie that's all. Like its not a smart move to advertise the main protagonist of a kid movie as being homosexual.
Parents may just want their kid to see harmless movies,when I say Harmless I mean movies that won't lead your kid to ask you questions about sensitive subject or subject that might have consequences in their personnal developpement.
This movies are seen by kids that may be younger than 10.

So to avoid the potential headhache the parents will just not go with their kid to see the movie and will wait an age they consider appropriate to talk about subject like that.( maybe around 12yo ?)

 

[Fino]

will wait an age they consider appropriate to talk about subject like that.( maybe around 12yo ?)

Edit: I just noticed other people said the thing I said but worded it better, so I just deleted mine and replaced it with this, to avoid any possible argument with me. I don't like to debate topics I actually care about!

Good luck!

 

[Peter Morrison]

Virtually everything known in existence is suitable for a movie. I think the question becomes how and why characters and story lines take form. I learned to read with the stories of "Tom, Betty, and Susan" - three white kids who lived in a house with a picket fence. I never knew kids like this in my neighborhood, and I didn't try to emulate them either. I found them dull. Stories for kids today are quite different - more variety, adventure, imagination, and exposure to people, places, and lives that are different and distant from one's own reality. It's one of the ways we learn and avoid the pitfalls of extreme ignorance of the world. The more variety the better.

There will never be solid agreement on entertainment media using romance, loyalty, sacrifice, violence, hardship, or abuse in a way that is deemed appropriate and responsible to everyone's interests and tastes. I still pride the US for individual freedoms, and this includes everyone. You cannot silence someone before they have spoken, and you don't have to agree with what was said. It gets incorporated into a greater understanding.

There is a serious trend to ensure that unconventional characters are represented in mainstream media, and I have not yet heard of anyone being rushed to the emergency room over it. I always think of Sesame Street as the prime beacon of diversity. Difference doesn't have to be scary or harmful. Acts of kindness, cooperation, and tolerance are positive features of any culture. Like everything we learn about as we grow into adulthood, we figure it out on our own terms and in our own way.

 

[Iamnotarabot]

I have a rule to not debate topics I have an emotional investment in.

You already did, and with pretty serious accusations.You could have keep this insult for yourself and stay civil in your answer.
So if you are willing to accuse someone of such a serious offence without the intention to reply back to the people you accused/insulted, without any solid evidence, you better not post about the topic at all I'm sorry.

I didnt say a moment I consider to be appropriate, I say a moment other parents may consider appropriate, I realized that the world is composed of people without my own point of view about things, without it being illegal, you seem to struggle with that idea.

Some parents might not want to talk about it because it defy the structure of their own family.
You see older movies with a prince and a princess and the kid wont even ask questions about it because this is exactly like his own family, then when the kid ask about how you make babies, the parent tell you that they are born in roses and cauliflower( that's a directly translated french sentence, and when you are autistic you belive that until you are 14.)

But now the kids see 2 people of the same sexe acting like their parents on screen, so they might ask why, and then the parents will have to find an explenation, some parents might not want to deal with the topic at all, not because they are homophobc, but because they work 12h a day and they want to see a movie that will entertain their kids without them asking questions, and maybe this is just an irrationnal fear of the parent based on their own insecurities and the kid wont even care about that, but in the end it will be 6 tickets for the movie that you won't sell , not because the parents are homophobic,

they don't hate people or hurt people for being gay

( the definition of it btw, the largest being they dont hold any prejudice against them), but because they just dont want to talk about it, so Mr Allen is right, this is not an idea targeted for the good audience. Because most of the audience are parents, and part of them may not want to explain homosexuality to a 6yo.(It depends on how the movie deals with the topic in the end

If this is your definition of homophobia I hope you are not a judge because half the population might go to jail with your in charge xD

Otherwise you're saying it's taboo to be gay

I'm just saying it's a topic parents might not want to talk about, they still have the right to.

The purpose of gay characters in the media is to make sure the next generation doesn't hold this flawed thinking so dearly.

This is a second reason some parents will avoid this movie, people in charge of the entertainement industry want to use their influence to "educate" their audience, this is funny because it's tied directly into the latest topic about TLJ. So they dont make movies anymore, they make political statement and think they are better than anyone else ( in this case better than the parents to educate the kids).

But this is an old pattern already, a movie is produced and everyone that produced it knows it will performed badly at the box office, so they advertise it as a "anythingpolitical" movie, then the movie perform poorly because it's a bad one, and then the people in charge doesnt want to admit the movie is simply bad and use excuses such as the audience is anythingphobic.

In the end I dont realy care, I am just aware thatI live in a society with people having different points of view without them being an offence, and one of the real problem is that nowadays many people tends to consider different point of view as an offense , the funnier is when they talk about openness and dismiss any other point of view.


How about, beauty and the beast being a great movie about openness and understanding of different people? I guess the moral message isnt clear enought, they should have said " furries lives matter" at the end of it ( did I get it wrong? xD)

Give dream to kids, not political statements, pls.

 

[Theta.G]

Topic.

I recently read on Facebook that the forthcoming sequel to Disney's Frozen will feature the Elsa chatacter from the first one, only this time Disney are planning to make the character a gay.

Don't get me wrong I'm not homophobic, I just don't think it's suitable for the target audience.

Thoughts?

For about a decade nearly all major shows had a male gay character with no lesbian characters in sight. In the past several years they started slowly bleeding lesbian characters into most content. Wentworth, orange is the new black, Black'ish, i think the end of adventure time had bubblegum and marcelene(?) kissing, steven universe. That's just off the top of my head but i know there are way more out there and it's slowly becoming the character type that must be in nearly every major show, and it will be soon enough.

Is it unethical to put such things is childrens movies? Yes it is. When you're a child you don't even understand what sexual orientation is, hell they don't even understand what sex is. That bird and the bees talk comes much later does it not? Yet, when young minds are exposed these ideas early on.... especially in a Disney movie... it could and will alter whether they become gay, straight or bi. (A large portion of those subjected to the content)

When you're a child this is when your world view and paradigms are being formed. A large portion of this generation is going to grow up thinking gender fluidity and whatever doctrines and systems Disney wants to install, is completely normal and fine.

Another problem. Being subjected to content like that at such an early age is generally when kids think the opposite sex is yucky. Then they hit puberty and that changes. Yet, the programming gets in long before that. So lets say your a little girl growing up and you watched plenty of disney movies with lesbian themes and characters with sexualized undertones that disney is so famous for. You grow up, hit puberty and bam. All your urges are redirected to the same sex. Since the paradigm is there before puberty.

Again, this should only take hold in a chunk of the populace subjected to such content. Biological instinct cannot be overwritten in some. But this is how it works. A toddler is like a blank slate absorbing everything around it including data from tv shows and movies. It has no conscious mind yet that is still developing. It cannot block things from getting in or out and becoming part of the paradigm or world view. Organizations such a Disney know this. They've perfected all the ways to infiltrate the mind. Parents who are completely ignorant of what i'm saying here don't know any better, can't know any better and wouldn't be able to begin to grasp the chain of causes and effects which follow. What impact this has on their kids future. // This is most parents, an over whelming majority who don't understand any of it.

Control Disney? Control the next generation. Subtle things people don't understand yet change the world.

 

[Iamnotarabot]

A large portion of this generation is going to grow up thinking gender fluidity and whatever doctrines and systems Disney wants to install, is completely normal and fine.

This is the main part of the political debate going on about this yes, to be truly honest I dont know about the topic enought to have a clear opinion on my own So I can't tell for sure if it truly influences kids.
But I know that my early exposure to some movies and video games shaped me so I wont deny it can have some effects.

But when I posted I didnt even have that in mind, I was just talking about how on a business point of view it was a bad call to advertise a kid movie like that

 

[Misery]

For about a decade nearly all major shows had a male gay character with no lesbian characters in sight. In the past several years they started slowly bleeding lesbian characters into most content. Wentworth, orange is the new black, Black'ish, i think the end of adventure time had bubblegum and marcelene(?) kissing, steven universe. That's just off the top of my head but i know there are way more out there and it's slowly becoming the character type that must be in nearly every major show, and it will be soon enough.

Is it unethical to put such things is childrens movies? Yes it is. When you're a child you don't even understand what sexual orientation is, hell they don't even understand what sex is. That bird and the bees talk comes much later does it not? Yet, when young minds are exposed these ideas early on.... especially in a Disney movie... it could and will alter whether they become gay, straight or bi. (A large portion of those subjected to the content)

When you're a child this is when your world view and paradigms are being formed. A large portion of this generation is going to grow up thinking gender fluidity and whatever doctrines and systems Disney wants to install, is completely normal and fine.

Another problem. Being subjected to content like that at such an early age is generally when kids think the opposite sex is yucky. Then they hit puberty and that changes. Yet, the programming gets in long before that. So lets say your a little girl growing up and you watched plenty of disney movies with lesbian themes and characters with sexualized undertones that disney is so famous for. You grow up, hit puberty and bam. All your urges are redirected to the same sex. Since the paradigm is there before puberty.

Again, this should only take hold in a chunk of the populace subjected to such content. Biological instinct cannot be overwritten in some. But this is how it works.

As someone who isn't straight myself, I gotta disagree with this.

It definitely wasn't a choice in my case, nor was I exposed to it as a kid. ANY of it. My family aren't homophobes or anything, but they also never brought it up as it was never relevant. Which is typically how they are... when something does become somehow relevant, it can get discussed, but until then, nobody bothers. Since no friends/family were gay/bi, reasons to speak of it never occurred. I did however hear about girls a lot (particularly from extended family). I also never went through the "opposite sex is icky" thing (I instead went through the "EVERYONE is icky" thing and never grew out of it entirely).

I still ended up only attracted to males, period. I also have a lot of gender probems too, and was not exposed to that as a kid either... it simply is what it is. I don't control it, nor did I ever want it, that's for sure.

I've found that, in conversations with others who aren't straight, they will often say the same thing: It was never a choice to them, nor were they exposed to a lot of it as a kid. Rather, there are an unfortunate number of them who wish they weren't that way at all. It can haunt you, I tell ya that.

Our instincts, whatever they are, are buried very, very deep, even though they can be a little different from one person to the next. Simple conversation or exposure cannot overwrite that, probably in anyone... there's a reason why the stereotypical story exists, of parents sending their kids to some anti-gay "camp", and it never actually working. Even FOCUSED efforts to "cure" this don't truly work. This is likely why really extreme "treatments" such as electrotherapy were invented, BECAUSE nothing else had an effect.

What exposure CAN do however is reveal something that is already there. This, I suspect, is why people flip out over it. Well, that and bloody stupid political views (note that I have an absolutely universal hatred of ALL politics).

On top of that, non-hetero sexualities have been observed in animals as well (of all types). And generally, I don't think they have discussions about it much or see movies that could influence them.

There's always a lot of funky confusion about this whole thing. But regardless of how it's approached... a mere movie isn't going to do it.

I mean, by that logic, it's an EXTREMELY bad idea to show movies about serial killers, because it'd cause kids to become such a person. But we all know that doesn't happen. Kids are exposed to boatloads of violence in all media, yet we don't have endless legions of killers roaming the streets. The main reason why people believe it about sexualities or gender stuff is because people still cannot accept that such things exist and must fight/attack it so bloody often


Anyway, just my thoughts on it, as someone who is about as straight as a paperclip. That's enough out of me for now though, I don't wanna corrupt the topic with too much rambling. Also typing on a laptop sucks.

 

[Monachopia]

I think it's healthy to put homosexual pairings into children's television. It reflects society much better and teaches both straight and gay children that relationships they will see around them and those they will experience in the future are normal and natural. It's too often that I see stories of 12 year olds confused and scared to come out to their families, friends/peers about their inner self and I find that so sad.

Even though children before the age of 12 or so don't really understand romance and sex in the same way an older teenager/adult does, you do still tend to know if they are going to be a certain way. They need to know it's ok and their peers need to know it's ok too. The purpose of children's media isn't just of pure entertainment, but also to educate and to show what the world is like in a language they understand.

It's time a big company like Disney started embracing the responsibility of including everyone in the stories they tell.

 

[SunnyDay16]

Topic.

I recently read on Facebook that the forthcoming sequel to Disney's Frozen will feature the Elsa chatacter from the first one, only this time Disney are planning to make the character a gay.

Don't get me wrong I'm not homophobic, I just don't think it's suitable for the target audience.

Thoughts?

May I ask why you feel Disney making one of their characters gay wouldn't be suitable for the target audience?

The way I look at it, is that kids are way smarter than we give them credit for. At a certain age unless they're living in with an overprotective religious family they will learn that gay people exist at some point. I don't feel there's any harm in letting kids know that there are in fact different sexual orien

For about a decade nearly all major shows had a male gay character with no lesbian characters in sight. In the past several years they started slowly bleeding lesbian characters into most content. Wentworth, orange is the new black, Black'ish, i think the end of adventure time had bubblegum and marcelene(?) kissing, steven universe. That's just off the top of my head but i know there are way more out there and it's slowly becoming the character type that must be in nearly every major show, and it will be soon enough.

Is it unethical to put such things is childrens movies? Yes it is. When you're a child you don't even understand what sexual orientation is, hell they don't even understand what sex is. That bird and the bees talk comes much later does it not? Yet, when young minds are exposed these ideas early on.... especially in a Disney movie... it could and will alter whether they become gay, straight or bi. (A large portion of those subjected to the content)

When you're a child this is when your world view and paradigms are being formed. A large portion of this generation is going to grow up thinking gender fluidity and whatever doctrines and systems Disney wants to install, is completely normal and fine.

Another problem. Being subjected to content like that at such an early age is generally when kids think the opposite sex is yucky. Then they hit puberty and that changes. Yet, the programming gets in long before that. So lets say your a little girl growing up and you watched plenty of disney movies with lesbian themes and characters with sexualized undertones that disney is so famous for. You grow up, hit puberty and bam. All your urges are redirected to the same sex. Since the paradigm is there before puberty.

Again, this should only take hold in a chunk of the populace subjected to such content. Biological instinct cannot be overwritten in some. But this is how it works. A toddler is like a blank slate absorbing everything around it including data from tv shows and movies. It has no conscious mind yet that is still developing. It cannot block things from getting in or out and becoming part of the paradigm or world view. Organizations such a Disney know this. They've perfected all the ways to infiltrate the mind. Parents who are completely ignorant of what i'm saying here don't know any better, can't know any better and wouldn't be able to begin to grasp the chain of causes and effects which follow. What impact this has on their kids future. // This is most parents, an over whelming majority who don't understand any of it.

Control Disney? Control the next generation. Subtle things people don't understand yet change the world.

I really disagree with your stance here.

Tons of children's movies have straight romances and kisses on screen; nobody even bats an eye towards those. I remember being as young as five and seeing all of that. And, as far as I'm concerned, I turned out fine. Some even had sexual references or innuendos, but most of us are too young to even grasp that. I certainly don't remember being able to grasp any of that.

Having romantic content and showing romantic relationships doesn't have to be sexual at all. Sex is usually a part of romantic relationships, but there are asexual couples out there. If Disney decides to have blatant gay relationships in their films, they're not going to show the sexual side obviously.

Onto your next point, what you watch has zero effect on your sexual orientation. If that were the case, I'd be straight since I've been exposed to more than enough straight romances from movies since I was a little kid. It's common knowledge by this point that your sexuality is innate and cannot be "changed" from straight to gay or bi by watching enough movies.

 

[Monachopia]

Is it unethical to put such things is childrens movies? Yes it is. When you're a child you don't even understand what sexual orientation is, hell they don't even understand what sex is. That bird and the bees talk comes much later does it not? Yet, when young minds are exposed these ideas early on.... especially in a Disney movie... it could and will alter whether they become gay, straight or bi. (A large portion of those subjected to the content)

I disagree. In certain countries where homosexual <anything> is banned in the media to the point of being almost illegal creates massive problems. For example, in Russia there is such a thing in force. This has an extremely damaging effect on those living there. The straight population are indoctrinated to believe homosexuality is immoral and perverse. The gay community are ostracised, ridiculed and often even killed for trying to just live. Saying that being subjected to same-sex couples in children's television will make those kids grow up gay is backwards and completely untrue and that sort of thinking only leads to political involvement like we see in Russia and several other countries. It's on a genetic level, if it wasn't, then we wouldn't have animals who prefer same sex mates. So please, don't say such things. It's insensitive and misinformed because it implies that there is something wrong with homosexuality in general. It's part of nature, like it or not.

 

[Theta.G]

Alot of you missed the point in what i was saying. My bad, that stuff is highly advanced and sometimes i forget to restrict it. That's ok you can disagree lol
Anyway rather than dive into every quote here, explaining why it works the way it works in a novel long post will chalk it up to different understandings. Sorry if the contents of the post offended anyone

 

[SunnyDay16]

Alot of you missed the point in what i was saying. My bad, that stuff is highly advanced and sometimes i forget to restrict it. That's ok you can disagree lol
Anyway rather than dive into every quote here, explaining why it works the way it works in a novel long post will chalk it up to different understandings. Sorry if the contents of the post offended anyone

What point were you trying to make then?