Social oddities/manipulation based on wanting certain social input/output - sort of devil's advocacy

[risootser]

OK. I'm a scientific guy and among things that generate hypothetical wanderings in me are people.

While I am not malicious in my lies towards others (let's not get into a life is not a zero sum game angle which is interesting but too divergent for the topic) I tend to probe people as they are some sort of test subjects. I might lie about myself to see if I was correct in my hypothetical assumptions. This is about building a dataset out from people like forming massive correlations. It gets very rewarding when you hit the nail again and again. In a way this is like shooting my leg in name of science. Kind of masochistic sometimes in terms of self-treatment.

An example
When I was in the diagnostic interview I just couldn't help myself. I wanted to learn more about autism indirectly because I haven't heard of it so I told lies in terms understanding what they were getting at and following their reactions. I just wanted to know what they were getting towards and what it wasn't. Like forming some sort of it applies here under these conditions and not in here. I'm too curious and it got the best of me. Later it has become hard to denounce my lies because they are not open to hear me.

I usually try to be few steps ahead of my conversation partner. It creates certain disconnection.

 

[Kalinychta]

Would it not have been easier to simply ask the analyst at your interview to explain her questions in more depth? I don’t see why lying was necessary, or why it would be in everyday interactions with people in general. And yes, if you regularly lie to people, they will see you as untrustworthy and won’t be open to hearing any more out of you.

 

[Matthias]

OK. I'm a scientific guy and among things that generate hypothetical wanderings in me are people.

While I am not malicious in my lies towards others (let's not get into a life is not a zero sum game angle which is interesting but too divergent for the topic) I tend to probe people as they are some sort of test subjects. I might lie about myself to see if I was correct in my hypothetical assumptions. This is about building a dataset out from people like forming massive correlations. It gets very rewarding when you hit the nail again and again. In a way this is like shooting my leg in name of science. Kind of masochistic sometimes in terms of self-treatment.

An example
When I was in the diagnostic interview I just couldn't help myself. I wanted to learn more about autism indirectly because I haven't heard of it so I told lies in terms understanding what they were getting at and following their reactions. I just wanted to know what they were getting towards and what it wasn't. Like forming some sort of it applies here under these conditions and not in here. I'm too curious and it got the best of me. Later it has become hard to denounce my lies because they are not open to hear me.

I usually try to be few steps ahead of my conversation partner. It creates certain disconnection.

I used to do that all the time. I'd say something I didn't believe to see other people's reactions out of curiosity and to learn just like you described. I did it because I knew people often lie when asked directly and my nonverbal impairments made it impossible for me to detect it so I had to get creative to find out how they'd really react.

 

[Fino]

Sounds like you have control issues and a superiority complex.

 

[Aspychata]

To me, it's too easy to lie. And people do believe. I think taking the high road and telling the truth is a great feeling. If you find enjoyment in being distruthful then you strike me as a bit lazy. Anybody can lie. At the end of the day, people who lie aren't anybody special to me. Lying to someone in a clinical situation doesn't excuse it. Being comfortable with truth requires emotional guts. Sorry if this hurts anybody's feelings but we aren't known for our niceties. But l give you credit for being truthful that you are deceitful. Ironic isn't it?☺

 

[risootser]

Sounds like you have control issues and a superiority complex.

Ummm... yeah I dislike control. Something like structured interview assumes submission. I don't like to control others either and telling people be certain way is definitely gross. In these situations I submit and completely ignore my desires but I fight back if it is about direct control. I like to give people freedom and vice versa. It is like my world view is nihilistic and there is no truth.

Superiority complex? I'm pretty low in narcissism and I usually think that I'm worse than others. I have had huge issues with résumé because I delete positive stuff about me making me appear worse on purpose. When I was looking for a job people said that this level of honesty gets you nowhere and you should make it look better but I declined. Although this could be about thinking of myself being superior in inferiority.

 

[risootser]

I was looking for a list of control issues and found this.

1. You aren’t a good team player.

Maybe so. I'm independent and I dislike seeing others being commanded.

2. You believe you are 100 percent responsible for your success.

Nah, more like I'm 100% responsible for failures but success is usually result from from standing shoulders of giants.

3. You invest a lot of time into trying to convince other people to change.

Never unless they are a sock puppet.

4. You have trouble maintaining meaningful relationships.

Yes, relationships require submission and I have better things to do.

5. You spend a lot of energy trying to prevent bad things from happening.

I like to be inventive but I hardly care about things.

6. You don’t delegate.

Yes, I don't like to pressure people. It is better to give them a break and be nice.

7. You lack compassion for people who make mistakes.

Not true except when their mistake is to control me.

 

[menander]

Just ask for more info. It's hard to do because people have such biases. If I ask someone, "I really am trying to understand your political position...." It's a blast of vitriol! Whereas if I said, "Yeah. I know what you mean.....tell me more" and they think I am on their page they might tell me more.

But I never do that. To deceive someone in my mind is worse than not knowing some vague Truth that does not exist anyway. My conscience however, DOES exist and it's a sharp and searing dagger.

 

[Aspychata]

The funny thing is that with deceptive people, they open up more if they judge you to be exactly like them. So l will twist a bit to figure out just how damaging or dangerous they are. Is this ethically or morally correct? Or is it just surival? Because l truly like to know what l am dealing with in most situations. The one thing l do realise is that people aren't black and white, there are various shades that overlap and produce outcomes in their motivations.

 

[Kalinychta]

Well, I reckon there’s nothing too harmful in lying to strangers, but I would certainly recommend you not do it to people you see regularly. And lying to the analyst who evaluated you for autism—why did you even bother to go in for a diagnosis if you weren’t going to take it seriously? Definitely don’t lie to doctors.

 

[risootser]

And lying to the analyst who evaluated you for autism—why did you even bother to go in for a diagnosis if you weren’t going to take it seriously?.

Well, like I said I had no idea what she was predetermined to see in me and I was a blank slate regarding autism. Because my usual stance is truth before my own wellbeing I was really drilling it down. She had preconceptions so I tought that I should challenge her. On a later visit I tried to have a fierce debate (but she declined) just to see how scientific she was. She could not answer my difficult questions. Like I said I'm more concerned about science than my own wellbeing so I'd rather shoot my own leg than believe authority figures because someone has didacted the criteria.

 

[Aspychata]

Well, like I said I had no idea what she was predetermined to see in me and I was a blank slate regarding autism. Because my usual stance is truth before my own wellbeing I was really drilling it down. She had preconceptions so I tought that I should challenge her. On a later visit I tried to have a fierce debate (but she declined) just to see how scientific she was. She could not answer my difficult questions. Like I said I'm more concerned about science than my own wellbeing so I'd rather shoot my own leg than believe authority figures because someone has didacted the criteria.

But this is also very subjective because a person can go to 5 different doc's and probably get 3-5 different labels. So not sure why you have gone the extra step and tortured this person. That's a tab confusing being that a lot of us aren't big on drag down verbal debating. If you are so knowledgeable, why did you go in the first place?

 

[Kalinychta]

Well, like I said I had no idea what she was predetermined to see in me and I was a blank slate regarding autism. Because my usual stance is truth before my own wellbeing I was really drilling it down. She had preconceptions so I tought that I should challenge her. On a later visit I tried to have a fierce debate (but she declined) just to see how scientific she was. She could not answer my difficult questions. Like I said I'm more concerned about science than my own wellbeing so I'd rather shoot my own leg than believe authority figures because someone has didacted the criteria.

What sort of difficult questions did you ask her? I’m curious again as to why you went in at all if you were just planning to lie to her and ultimately wouldn’t believe her conclusions anyway since she is an authority figure.

 

[Fino]

Sometimes what makes questions difficult is that they are bad questions.

 

[risootser]

But this is also very subjective because a person can go to 5 different doc's and probably get 3-5 different labels. So not sure why you have gone the extra step and tortured this person. That's a tab confusing being that a lot of us aren't big on drag down verbal debating. If you are so knowledgeable, why did you go in the first place?

I was pressured because my life was in a terrible place. Like I said I was not knowledgeable until later and it was time to get things straight so that we could reside in objective place but she insisted instead of providing cood hard indisputable evidence.

Sometimes what makes questions difficult is that they are bad questions.

I think the meaning of life is to gain the understanding about the life itself. You are not going to get it by getting being spoon fed information without really really having deep understanding and she seemed to be very superficial. Her main goal was not the objective hard truth but to help based on subjective views. She also was concerned more about my feelings and tried to smooth out conclusions which made me really mad. Caring about my feelings at the expense of objectivity is basically a from of corruption.

 

[Fino]

Wasn't this a psychiatrist? And you don't like her concern for your feelings? And how are feelings not objective? You wanted a deep understanding of life from a psychiatrist? People have specializations, we don't seek philosophical nuance from a mechanic.

 

[risootser]

Wasn't this a psychiatrist? And you don't like her concern for your feelings? And how feelings not objective? You wanted a deep understanding of life from a psychiatrist? People have specializations, we don't seek philosophical nuance from a mechanic.

But I still want that a mechanic checks that he has the right kind of screws. Being extremely self critical about every action.

I wanted to make sure that she was absolutely right because it seemed like she jumped to conclusions and she couldn't back it up with certain proofs when asked! I think it should question her as a reputable professional.

Who the hell cares how I feel?! I think it should be my own private business especially since customer did not want it.

Feelings are sympathetic responses aka they are more self reflective than other reflective hence it boils down to subjectivity. Did I care about my self-image in those matters? Nope but it was sympathetic response so she herself would have cared about it if she was in my position.

 

[Kalinychta]

I wanted to make sure that she was absolutely right because it seemed like she jumped to conclusions and she couldn't back it up with certain proofs when asked! I think it should question her as a reputable professional

Can you give us an example of one of the conclusions she jumped to and how you questioned her about it?

 

[risootser]

Can you give us an example of one of the conclusions she jumped to and how you questioned her about it?

She pretty gave me tests and then asked questions. She had a huge confirmation bias going on. She never tried to think in alternative ways. My diagnosis was decided before the first meeting. Everything not fitting was just put in pile "not everyone" or it was explained away. She knew my background beforehand. Conclusions can be right even if there is a confirmation bias, I know.

 

[Kalinychta]

She pretty gave me tests and then asked questions. She had a huge confirmation bias going on. She never tried to think in alternative ways. My diagnosis was decided before the first meeting. Everything not fitting was just put in pile "not everyone" or it was explained away. She knew my background beforehand. Conclusions can be right even if there is a confirmation bias, I know.

I see. But can you give a specific example of a something she said?