Strongest evidence yet for Neanderthal-Human interbreeding in new find.

[Tom]

Good news for Neanderthalists!

Around 2002 a early human jawbone with some teeth was found in a isolated Romanian cave. The cave could only be accessed by divers first traversing an underwater section. It was dated to 40,000 years ago.

The final DNA study was just published and had some surprising findings. It contained the largest portion of Neanderthal DNA found yet in a human (8-12%) and longest strands. It has some possible slight neanderthal physiology, and was descended from a Neanderthal-Human interbreeding that had occurred 4-6 generations previous.

Up to now the interbreeding theory had limited it to about 5000 years earlier in the middle east only. This study suggests it occurred multiple times over a 5000 year period and in Europe as well. Lastly this last interbreeding (found so far) coincides roughly with the end of the fossil record of the Neanderthals.

The full article:

Analysis of bones found in Romania offer evidence of human and Neanderthal interbreeding in Europe

 

[Peace]

Interesting
I now wonder what that means to me.

 

[Tom]

Interesting
I now wonder what that means to me.

In practical terms it just means that besides having uncle Pete the Homo Sapien on the left, you also have uncle George on the right, a Neanderthal, in your ancestory.



It is believed the two themselves descended the same ancestor already (The scary fellow bellow, Australopithicus) so were already related in a more distant fashion. But the new theory has us coming together again in a small way after have left Africa and diverged significantly.



But it may not be the only cross-hominid interbreeding that occurred. Some evidence is coalescing around another homo-sapien - 'other hominid' interbreeding further east towards Asia.

 

[watersprite]

I'd love to go back in time to surreptitiously observe these beings or at least be able to somehow see through the centuries. This is fascinating stuff.

 

[Tom]

I'd love to go back in time to surreptitiously observe these beings or at least be able to somehow see through the centuries. This is fascinating stuff.

I think about that all the time, going back in time somehow. A favorite daydream. I imagine going to different places/times. I never thought about going back to this period, but the idea is interesting. There is like total uncertainty about what sort of culture and technology the Neanderthals had. Why they disappeared is also a complete mystery. Though this theory of interbreeding, which I think now is getting close to be proven would mean they did not completely go extinct, but lived on in part in us.

 

[watersprite]

Can I say that I anthropomorphize (sp) Neanderthals, (?) in that I feel a wistfulness, or a sadness that they're gone. Knowing that the long long ago grandfathers and grandmothers of us might have left us a little something of themselves within - is unendingly intriguing. I want to know the rest of the story, hopefully it can and will be found.

 

[Aspergirl4hire]

I've seen this in a Gary Larsen cartoon.

And yes, interesting! Link to Harrison's Neanderthal thread for original discussion.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

Ok, I'm not understanding all the big language. Where did the third one come from because it looks a little too human for me. It's giving me the creeps. (It's eyes look sad like it's human but trapped in an ape body.) I keep wanting to put some clothes on it and a baseball hat. I actually have to stop looking at it because it gives me a haunted feeling.

 

[Tom]

Ok, I'm not understanding all the big language. Where did the third one come from because it looks a little too human for me. It's giving me the creeps. (It's eyes look sad like it's human but trapped in an ape body.) I keep wanting to put some clothes on it and a baseball hat. I actually have to stop looking at it because it gives me a haunted feeling.

According to current accepted evolution theory it is our ancestor. From this one hominid, Australopithicus (which lived in Africa and lasted a long time) came many offshoots, such as homo erectus, neanderthal, homo sapiens, etc. The most recent studies on it are focusing on its development of a very protected head/face and hands that could be made into a fist. The spectulation is that this stage is when our line became a trully fighting ape.

 

[AsheSkyler]

Looks like we have the neanderthals to thank for our now having eyebrows. The man and grandpa have no eyebrows, just eyebrow ridges.

Ok, I'm not understanding all the big language. Where did the third one come from because it looks a little too human for me. It's giving me the creeps. (It's eyes look sad like it's human but trapped in an ape body.) I keep wanting to put some clothes on it and a baseball hat. I actually have to stop looking at it because it gives me a haunted feeling.

If Grandpa was looking to the side or smiling he probably wouldn't have had that effect. His stare is a bit predatory/fixed in that shot, not one many people find pleasant. Uncle Man and Uncle Caveman probably got their personalities from their mothers.

I think Grandpa looks like a cross between an orangutan and chimpanzee. Which I find disturbing because chimps are one of my least favorite primates.

 

[Maelstrom]

breaking news a creature called Maelstrom was found under a rock and tested with the highest % of Neandrathal DNA yet...thought to be linked to the dreadful creature Eric the Red.....

 

[Berianireth]

According to current accepted evolution theory it is our ancestor. From this one hominid, Australopithicus (which lived in Africa and lasted a long time) came many offshoots, such as homo erectus, neanderthal, homo sapiens, etc. The most recent studies on it are focusing on its development of a very protected head/face and hands that could be made into a fist. The spectulation is that this stage is when our line became a trully fighting ape.

The theory arises because Australopithecus was an extremely diverse group, and then suddenly following this initial (maybe not initial, but close!) bipedal ape we had lots of bipedal apes and evidence of tool use. There was also some evidence recently suggesting that Denisovans also interbred with the homo sapiens sapiens predecessor, which is totally wild since the early 2000's was full of scientists that denied any interbreeding.
Frankly I've always considered my teeth as evidence of Neanderthal contributions to the modern gene pool.

 

[Tom]

The theory arises because Australopithecus was an extremely diverse group, and then suddenly following this initial (maybe not initial, but close!) bipedal ape we had lots of bipedal apes and evidence of tool use. There was also some evidence recently suggesting that Denisovans also interbred with the homo sapiens sapiens predecessor, which is totally wild since the early 2000's was full of scientists that denied any interbreeding.
Frankly I've always considered my teeth as evidence of Neanderthal contributions to the modern gene pool.

Yes, the mix is looking to be more complex then generally believed. I'm not sure but thought there was another possibility appearing in addition to the Denisovans. (Something only known by a single molar so far ?)

I love watching the dog domesication studies too as that is another area constantly being revised and dramatically. The newest study on them is wild. Its pointing to a common extinct ancestor for wolves and dogs, possibly an extinct Siberian wolf and that dogs did not come directly from any exsisting wolves. Also that wolves may have bred at some point with Jackals!

What I really like to watch especially is the date of dog domestication. It wasn't very long ago, just a few years it was believed to have occurred around 14k years ago along with the advent of human agriculture settlements. That date has been pushed to likely more then 30k years ago and possibliy 40k. Some are looking at the human-dog partnership as a significant event in human development and survival. One researcher goes as far as to spectulate it was one of the things that gave humans the edge over other hominids, like Neanderthals. I'd say that was a very far stretch at this point, but it is interesting to keep ones mind open to very wide possibilities.

 

[Tom]

Frankly I've always considered my teeth as evidence of Neanderthal contributions to the modern gene pool.

Funny you should say that. Dentists tell me I have dog teeth and often have to special order extra long tools. And I go a little crazy at the full moon.

 

[Berianireth]

For some reason I have had teeth come in as extra rows...my roots were overly long and my teeth are just too large. LOL I even have some extra teeth embedded in my jaw bone, according to X-rays. 0.o Maybe I'm part shark?

 

[Tom]

Hmmm... a Neanderthal, Canine and Shark (!).

So we may have stumbled on a previously unknown symptom of autism: Random Evolutionary Recessive Dentification (RERD). Or nature is attempting to give us more predatory teeth. Possibly to support a more solitary lifestyle. Like if there was raptors living on the third floor of the apartment complex.

With such a small sample I am not quite ready to go to the Hall of Science with this yet.

Do we have a Mastadon in the crowd? A Sabre toothed Aspie ?

 

[Berianireth]

...I've actually speculated that it is related in some way. Occam's razor, you know!? But it's not terribly far-fetched. Teeth develop from neural crest cells, and patterning/migration of those cells can be influenced by the same hormonal gradients that determine cerebellar formation and the forebrain/midbrain/hindbrain junctions... retinoids, serotonin, and estradiol have all been associated with early patterning and unsurprisingly with conditions like schizophrenia and autism where synapses seem to develop improperly. I doubt there's a special "autistic dental profile", but people with ASD might have dental abnormalities more often depending on what occurred in development/what genes were involved.