The Money Thread

[Geordie]

If you have any queries, issues or thoughts on the issue of money and financial management, try to post here.

I will do my best to look into these issues, whenever I can

 

[Soup]

The best advice I can give to young Aspies is to gain a professional degree in an area of interest & ability that leads to financial autonomy. We are far too smart to be broke & dependent. If you have mathematical/scientific/tech. aptitude (& so many of us do) fields like engineering (many different kinds), becoming a mathematician, robotics, technologies, astrophysics...even lab technicians, radiologists, radiation oncologists, medicine are high demand, offer stable employment & even have sub-fields that allow you to work alone or in a quiet isolated setting. My brother's FIL is a board-certified Aspie BUT he is also a top-notch electrical engineer whose work is in high demand. They fly him all over the world to solve particularly challenging problems. He does all the Aspie stuff we're familiar with from stimming, making a funny buzzing noise, never making eye-contact or shaking hands, not grinning & looking odd & speaking in a monotone voice. Since he's so good at what he does, his Aspie traits do not limit him. He's an affluent successful man.

Getting a stable career is the best route to financial independence. Try fields that de-emphasize constant highly social interaction. Another thing I'd suggest is to learn about money & financial management. Learn how to save, learn what you can afford to spend & learn financial accountability & discipline. Since we often have keen interests that cost money to indulge in, we can get tunnel vision & see only what item we want & target getting it no matter what. This is problematic as it gives temporary satisfaction at the expense of a stable future. If you find yourself spending excessively on an interest or collection etc. Perhaps a good therapist can help you get a grip on your runaway spending & manage better.

So many otherwise intelligent people are financially foolish. Understanding money & how much you have & how much you really need is critical. Also, there is this notion of having 'extra money'. Unless you are the Sultan of Brunei, there is no such thing.

Also, beware of credit cards!!! the interest rates, especially on many store cards, are usurious leading you deep into debt you can never repay making minimum payments or just over the minimum. You will barely cover the service charges & the interest! Unsecured debt is playing a major role in sinking the US economy & many Canadians are suffering too. According to our finance minister, the avg middle class Canadian family is carrying over 20,000$ in unsecured (credit cards, financed items etc.) debt over & above mortgages & car payments (!) They are one crisis away from disaster as many have depleted their savings in order to remain afloat.

For us Aspies, getting out from under a financial crisis will prove even more difficult since many of us do not do job interviews well & many of us have no professional or trade certification. We will be the last hired & the first fired. We've seen it happen to many on this forum: good people willing to work but unable to find a job. The stress of being both unemployed & in financial ruin (due to either excessive spending on a hobby or mismanagement or sheer lack of funds in the first place) will exacerbate all anxiety issues making it even harder to plan, behave & make decisions in ways that'll dig you out.

 

[Geordie]

Another thing I'd suggest is to learn about money & financial management.

Isn't it extremely difficult for many Aspies, who are hedonists and living for the moment, to have a clear picture of the idea of even saving money?

Everyone here... your thoughts?

 

[Soup]

We aren't all hedonists with the privilege of youth, some external financial support. Many of us are married or otherwise committed, any work full or part time & cannot just live in the moment-IF they want to have a roof over their head & food on the table tonight.

You are correct that financial management skills can be tough to learn: especially since the media does everything it can (in capitalist societies) to encourage runaway spending, conspicuous consumption, brand loyalty & manufactured need. You are right. These messages make people think that happiness & a good life means buying whatever they tell you that you should want, when they tell you to. They make it seem that spending, if you use a credit card, isn't really the same as spending money. they give you the impression that the items you buy have actual worth & that they make you appear to have a higher status when all we're really doing is transferring our meager wealth over to someone who is fabulously wealthy in exchange for something that was manufactured by virtual slave laborers in a crowded factory in a 3rd world country.

Once you become a 'real' adult, living in the moment (unless you're independently wealthy) becomes an empty euphemism for gross irresponsibility. No landlord wants to hear that we don't have the rent money because we're spontaneous & impulsive & bought a giant box of Legos instead. Once you're grown, financial gaffes can have terrible life-altering consequences. This is not an Aspie thing: look what has & is happening to all those families in the US who over-spent, bought too costly a home & maxed out their credit cards. THey lost their job & their health insurance went too. Then, the lender foreclosed on their home. Entire families were living in cars, camping with relatives & are on waiting lists for shelters. This is serious stuff!

 

[Nolan1971]

Material things can be nice but weigh you down also. I am much happier with less material goods and more time
time spent with those I love!

 

[Soup]

@ Nolan: I couldn't agree more! I feel so much better having pared down, gotten rid of superfluous stuff & tuned the media bombardment out. Time well spent is much better than money squandered.

 

[Geordie]

So for younger Aspies or young people in general, we try to spend time with other people with their ideas - and not their things, right?

 

[Nolan1971]

I recommend not having too much need for material things. Sure some things will have sentimental meaning but it is love behind it and not it's value.
Not yearning for too many material goods frees you up to do the things you love and spend more time with those you love instead of working too
hard just to get the latest gadget. I enjoy doing many things but never really cared about having the coolest things the concept of the one who
dies with the most toys wins is just stupid and a huge waste of time!

 

[simplify]

who are hedonists and living for the moment

This surprises me. I don't have any love for physical possessions. I own very little stuff and I'm really quite happy that way; the more stuff I have around me the more I feel tied down by it.

Anyway, I've never really had trouble with money management because I spend so little. Also, I have one of those fancy engineering jobs so it's pretty easy for me to make more money than I spend.

 

[Geordie]

This surprises me.

Well, Simplify, there are different sorts of Aspies we see in the world. I also know Aspies who are content living on a diet of malted drinks and biscuits all the time, and that's thrift to the extreme.

However, I think I may ask you this question: if you have a billion dollars, would you change the lifestyle you are currently living now? Be honest with that question.

If your answer is, 'no', then it's great.

Also, if you happen to have the great Math and Science skills and you feel content with your job, then it's great, simplify. The number one objective for you seems to be advancement in your skills and expertise, from the way you describe your spending/consumption habits. I wish most of us have the good fortune to carve out a good career path, like yours.

 

[Arashi222]

Here's the thing. I suck at money management. I feel like i can do it for awhile then I get sucky at it again. Like the rules slip away. I tend to want to spend more than I have money for. Now that is not to say that I don't have some savings I do. I can save money...I just...I make so little that when I want to do something with my hobby with what little I do have left sucks it out. My mom worries about me I know she does. I know she worries even more now that I am taking so many medications for my asthma ( I really need a new job this one is literally killing me). I tend to have hobbies or Aspie obsessions that are a bit more expensive. I really don't know how to curb my self in terms of something lasting because well lets face it I suck at money.

 

[WildCat]

How about the those of us like myself who still live at home, albeit working a full time job doing unskilled or semi-skilled work and paying off financial obligations on a monthly basis? I have no professional qualifications, a high school diploma but no college degree(s), and no skills outside of the 6 years I've spent in the grocery/retail field. Money management, there's one thing I've had to learn as I go, though I've made some bad decisions in the past related to my passions and due to my own impulsive spending habits. And no, I don't have any aptitude in the STEM fields either, much less academics in general - I did about average in high school and took only 2 classes in junior college.

I understand that I can't afford to be a child in an adult's body (no offense to anyone in this forum, addressing myself here) and continue to be dependent on government benefits to get me through (which at the moment I'm not, BTW), and that as I have already proven myself capable of working those kinds of jobs that I need to somehow support myself financially and contribute like everyone else, but the problem lies in how to manage the little money that I do earn and how to go about supporting myself on a month to month basis without plunging into the red. That's the issue for many people I know personally and not just myself.

 

[Soup]

"... if you have a billion dollars, would you change the lifestyle you are currently living now? Be honest with that question." -Geordie

Recently, Mr.Soup & I gave serious thought to this question in consideration of expanding the business & other decisions. We looked at the time investment that would arise & how that time expense would affect our lifestyle. Sure, we would definitely see a substantial rise in income...which was tempting. Then, we looked at what it is that we would want t do with a heap of money. Neither of us wants a larger house: we are looking at down-sizing. What the hell would we do in a mansion with just the 2 of us & no kids: run around & play hide & seek?!?

There were only 3 expensive material items we both want to have BUT they don't require being wealthy to get. One is an endless pool like this one----> but indoors since our climate renders an outdoor pool/spa useless most of the year. The entire unit + indoor installation would cost around 40G. Not cheap, but people spend that on a car. The other thing we want is a really good 4 season greenhouse (about 15G) for growing even more of our own food. We've invested in a 3 season greenhouse for this spring, but it isn't a big fancy one. The other thing we'd love is a small vacation condo on a private resort somewhere warm, sunny & safe (Aruba, Bahamas etc.) Not a huge beach house or anything insanely luxurious, just a place to use as an escape from the winter. When we're not in residence, we could rent it out & have it pay for itself. ALL of the above combined would cost less than 3/4 million.

Putting the indoor pool/spa in here makes zero sense since once we're certain that once the kids are truly secure & my parents are no longer with us, we want something less than half the size of what we have & it would be much cheaper to construct anew with the pool/spa in mind rather than to try bashing this place in to accommodate it.

Other than those 3 things, there's nothing we really want at all. The big ticket luxury items society says I should want or that would make me appear successful are of little to no interest to me. I love the sparkle of very large gemstones, but I'm content to look at them: I don't want or need to own (insure, conceal, worry about) & flash them at others.

As with Nolan, time spent doing the things I love with those I value is my priority. I don't want to sacrifice time with my puggy or the Great Dane in exchange for money. If that means not getting those 3 items, then too bad! I'm content as I am right here & now.

 

[King_Oni]

This thread has been on my mind a bit recently, since I'm managing my money a bit more responsible now. I need to move out of here for a couple of reason. I'm not under extreme pressure to make it happen really soon... but in the next year or so I should look for a place (and as such have money to do so).

It leaves me with a slightly problematic feeling I guess. While I'm on social security my income is minimal and as such I have to choose already where my money goes. And honestly, in the past year I've spent a lot of money on hobbies because... that's what keeps me busy and motivated (and most likely out of the psych ward). That's what my therapists have told me "keep busy doing things you like, cause I would rather not see you get in here depressed and all over something you can pretty much keep in check yourself". And honestly, I don't see how spending for instance 100 bucks on a "professional" monthly, who will tell me to find a hobby is any different than spending 50 to a 100 on a hobby on a monthly basis. And basically tell me something I already know. Fact also is that a hobby can keep me busy for more than that hourly session with that professional. (so in the end I'd need more money cause I need to pay both the therapist bill and money for hobbies)

I've noticed that with me and my girlfriend (and perhaps other aspies on this board) our interest in hobbies and activities is sometimes quite limited, though by no means less expensive. There's little leeway to "try something else". It might just not work out. Be it because it just doesn't appeal to us (I'm convinced that the aspie brain is more likely to give me a hard "NO!" instead of a "oh.. this isn't that bad") or because we might not even have said skills or abilities to do so. Not everyone can be good at playing an instrument. Yes you can practice, but truth is, some people just do not have any talent on that. And there's a giant list of hobbies and some kind of skill it requires. Add in sometimes a limited amount of resources and you can't try out 101 things to see what fits. You're happy you manage with the ones you found and can keep up with. And if anything; life has taught me to hang on to what you have and like. It's by no means a less materialistic point of view though.

I like stuff, things... but I wouldn't say that it's just those things by itself. Actually; I couldn't think of a single hobby I had in the past where you hadn't had to spend x amount of time on it to make it a wellworth investment in money and time. Buying a guitar doesn't make me happy. Using it and learning to get better at it does. Buying "toy soldiers" doesn't make me happy. But that 30 hour paintjob I spent on it does. And a really simple one; owning a computer doesn't make me happy. Using it does. Add in aspie obsessions, pulling all-nighters and to some extent a disconnection to "the real world" and you know where I'm heading.

This goes to worry me a lot more now even. It's a conversation I had with a schoolpsychologist once. It's not the money that drives me (but is a neccesity); it's having time to do whatever I want that makes me happy. The past 2 years, while I'm on social security, the financial stress is my biggest worry. But from a chronometric point of view, I'm happiest I've ever been. I've found stuff I enjoy, I've had the liberty to stay up for a few days and focus on my works. I actually, on a personal level... get **** done. Clearly depression hits every now and then; especially when finances are in the way for another project, but in the past few years, I've realized that because I was so hard pressed with my time I was in a perpetual state of gloom and depression and non-functioning. No wonder education failed. Having the liberty to take a breather allowed me to see the more positive note of my being and what I like. I'm not saying I didn't have a personality before; but I think if anything I'm more aware of myself and what I like and don't try to drone out on autopilot cause everyone does... it made me outright depressed in hindsight.

However, I think I may ask you this question: if you have a billion dollars, would you change the lifestyle you are currently living now? Be honest with that question

Yes, I would... but I'd change it on a practical note. Get my own place and spend some money in making the interior to my liking. I might spend some more money on things I like, like hobbies. But I doubt it'll be anything really extreme just because I could with that amount of money. I might spend some more on media I want instead of looking for it online, but all in all... I wouldn't go out on a limb. I'd probably settle with living of the interest alone and put it in my savings account.

 

[Kelly]

I don't handle the money at all, my husband sorts it all out, he puts all the money aside that's allocated to bills etc and then whatever is left over we split and spend on whatever, mine 99% of the time gets spent on either Kyoko or my husband. Whether that's (at the moment) putting it all towards her party/birthday presents or paying so she can do an extra dance class. I've pretty much stopped buying things for myself because I don't see the point it's all useless junk, the only thing I would replace if it broke is my tablet, I hate sitting at the PC so I use it all the time. We try to stay out of debt as much as possible, if we want to get something (like we could do with a new laptop both for space and to replace the PC that is slowly dying) we save for it. The only time we get in debt is if there is an emergency like last time the car needed repairing, we need a car and we didn't have the ?400 to pay the bill or getting Kyoko's assessment, it needed doing sooner rather then later luckily my in laws are quite well off and always lend us any money we need and we pay it back to them as and when we have it.

Kyoko varies with money, she doesn't completely understand it's value so we've started giving her pocket money and she has to budget as the money pays for all sweets, comics and toys she wants. Initially she was okay but she's recently become obsessed with moshi monsters and one week she asked if she could have 2 weeks money so she could get something she really wanted, we told her no of course not and that she had to save not 'borrow' and be in debt. Then when we were at the shops the next day she picked up a little moshi toy she wanted and then saw a comic she wanted, she didn't have enough for both so stood looking at them both for a few minutes and then said "I think I will get the toy because it's better value, the comic is just paper I won't really read it, I just want the lipgloss on the front and I already have lots of lipgloss". I was gobsmacked, normally she would make her little sad face at daddy or in this case granny (because she knows I'm a hard ass and just say no to everything) and get both anyway, I was really proud that she was able to make a well thought out decision like that. She's slowly becoming less "I NEED ALL THE THINGS NOW" (mainly monster high obsession related) and more "Do I really need this?".

if you have a billion dollars, would you change the lifestyle you are currently living now? Be honest with that question.

Absolutely, but I wouldn't live in a mansion nor drive an expensive car, I'd buy a large house (no more then 5/6 bedrooms - I'd want to adopt a few kids), get a new car but just something average, probably a people carrier. I would without a doubt buy alot of property and rent it out to those that need it most (as well as buying a house for all my various family members). I'd set up an autism charity that actually helped people, an animal shelter where no animal was put down due to old age/being unwanted. I'd do alot for our local community here, like our local little theatre is under threat of closure, I'd buy it, same with a local building that has historical value but not enough to save it from being torn down. I'd build a bigger/better community centre/children's play centre/youth centre...I could go on.

 

[King_Oni]

Something about this thread has been on my mind for a while now;

Aside from war and the financial effects because of that, I really wonder if there's a graph out there that points out when the global economy went downward. I'm almost certain the point were it went downward is the moment people were able to spend money they do not have (loans, etc.).

The notion that people actually have negative money is somewhat weird to me. I've had small loans in the past and paid them off, so the concept isn't totally alien for me, but the fact that people do this en masse and society as a whole relies on this behaviour to market and develop new products for people to want, while they basically have negative money is very well a big reason why we're witnessing a failing economy.

Yes, you can stimulate an economy by desire and by promoting spending. But like with all transactions between goods; the product should equal the item you trade for it (money in most cases) in worth. I feel that these aren't even equal anymore. A brand in general, does not contribute to the product as a physical value (one might argue that having popular brand X might cause happiness; but that's not physical). And because we are attributing a pricetag on things we can't touch (like feelings) things get out of control at some point.

Granted; we might need loans for certain things. But if I just look around in my city and look what houses are bought. Most of it is on a mortgage basis, not bought and paid for on day 1 without any obligations. And there's an entire industry just based on selling people houses with loans they can acquire if they have a job (and maybe some other rules). The amount of places people can rent (albeit, those appartment buildings are built with borrowed money probably) aren't that prevalent even. I'm willing to state that because some people do not qualify for a mortgage (old age, unemployed, disability, etc.) that would be the only reason there exists a thing as appartments for rent.

The similar notion of having negative money can be said about the government. Why does the government have a debt at all? If you can't support and run the population by taxes you get in, isn't there something inherently wrong with the way you deal with national finances? Cutbacks would not be neccesary if money was spent more wisely.

Here's another interesting idea for a non-sustainable future. Some services are so expensive right now... and they've become that expensive because they are probably being paid for by other companies with borrowed money. In this day and age, when getting a loan (or even having any "extra' money besides your basic needs) is a problem for some already (be it employed or unemployed). Those services will see a decrease in their demand for services, yet they can't lower prices a whole lot. Employees need to be paid (and they probably even had a union backing them up to guarantee a certain income), rent needs to be paid (which has increased over time due to inflation and addtional taxing) and the list goes on. I'm quite sure that for instance; a therapist did not cost what it does now, and even with correction of inflation it's an absurd price increase.

What I'm also wondering and that might be just me; If a country has a debt and increases and keeps increasing... after 2 years I'd probably already go "this is not right", but some countries keep going on like this for decades until they end up at the end of the jar and then realize "oh... we need to make severe cuts now".

Finally (cause I keep rambling on here); talking about debts... if you're in debt as a country; I don't really think it's ok to support other countries and borrow them money. If I'm broke I'm not gonna take money out of my account and be in debt if a friend asks me money. I'm broke, simple as that. Need to fix my own situation first. And let's not even get started on the contribution every country needs to make to be part of the EU. While the European Union is a fine idea, I fail to see how a contribution well within billions, just to be part of that club is helping to solidify the position of the country as well as the financial position of the EU as a whole. If I need to cutback 20 billion as a nation, then how is it helping me if I, for example need to spend 5 billion additional as a membership fee (and I'm not even talking about supporting countries that are on the brink of collapsing) to be part of a club that coerces me into spending money on projects and fundings to support others in that group. I think the basis of a solid group is that each member can stand up on it's own to start with.

/rant

 

[Flinty]

The roots of the economic crisis were in the horrendous loans that were given out by mortgage lenders to people who in no way could afford them. I make about $30,000 per year. That should mean I qualify for a mortgage of about $70,000. In America in the 2000s, though, I'd probably be given the opportunity to borrow $300,000 or some ridiculous number like that. This would be financed by growth in the value of the home, in theory. My theoretical loan would be for the interest only - or worse, negative amortization, and you're supposed to invest what you would be paying down the mortgage with in the stock market because it was supposed to grow your money faster and thus allow actual repayment of the mortgage at a later date.

The mortgage brokers didn't care because they get paid for each mortgage they sell. The banks didn't care because they could take the garbage mortgages, add good mortgages, and sell them together as investments. Those taking out the mortgages didn't care because they got a little freakin' mansion out of it.

Then the stock market hiccuped and people were forced to care. (The only difference between the 2008 collapse and the 1929 collapse was that in 1929 people were buying stocks on credit instead of homes. At least a house has some inherent value - the stock of a bankrupt company doesn't.)

In Canada, much of this is pseudo-illegal - you can do it, but you can't get insurance on the mortgage. But it takes ten Canadas to make one USA.

Credit is necessary. Some credit is good. A proper mortgage is good. Some student loans are good. Some credit is not so good. Most car loans are bad. Borrowing to take a vacation is bad. Filling up your credit card to give your kids toys they'll forget in a week is super bad.

Such is this with government. Some of their debt is good. The Chr?tien-Martin infrastructure program in Canada in the 1990s was very good, and things turned around to the point that they were able to balance the budget in a few years.

And that's the key to Keynesianism. Yes, stimulate the economy when times are bad and people need jobs - but once the stimulation is complete, it's time to cut back.

Austerity was tried in the 1930s, and it failed miserably. Then Keynes came around with his ideas for stimulating demand, and we got such things as the Tennessee Valley Authority. One key is to make sure you get something of value from the spending. A road or a dam will pay for itself over and over with direct and indirect revenue. A bureaucrat, not so much.

 

[King_Oni]

I make about $30,000 per year. That should mean I qualify for a mortgage of about $70,000.

And this is exactly the problem I'm seeing. There's nothing wrong with earning 30k a year, but a if 30k income gives you about 70k of mortgage... then what? If I look around here (and I don't know how it is in the US, so excuse me), the same 30k income here gives you a bigger mortgage here because... I have yet to see a house for 70k here. And you wont get a mortgage if you don't have a solid plan for it from what I've gathered. In other words, there's nothing in terms of housing available for even what would be a responsible mortgage for a average income.

Result; with a 30k income they'll give you a 140k mortgage (cause that's apparently what you need to buy a house in the first place), and that's exactly what people can never pay off. And as you pointed out; they don't care how you deal with that, fact is they got a bonus for "selling" you a mortgage.

 

[Flinty]

You guys need to know a secret about money: most people, ASD or otherwise, are bad with it.

Every time an account is opened at our company, the person opening the account has to complete a questionnaire. One question deals with how much people know about investing, which is pretty much a good proxy for knowledge about money management. The options are, from best to worst: excellent, good, fair, novice. (Nice euphemism on that last one. )

I get to see these questionnaires. About 70% of people rate as fair. Slightly more people rate as novice than as good - it's about 16-13, maybe 16-12.

That's right, only one or two per cent of people rate as excellent. And think about this: that's among people who are investing in the first place. There are plenty of people who don't. And that one or two per cent include the people giving the questionnaire to themselves.

So, if you're not so good with money, well...so are many NTs. Don't worry so much about it.

 

[SirMaverick]

well there goes My smart ass post..LOL

When I first saw this in the group of threads I was thinking "oh, a post about what would you do IF you had money" and had a great comeback..darn lol