The problem with the whole Alien Invasion genre...

[Pappy Boyington]

I've given this some thought and I've come to the conclusion that almost all of the Alien Invasion movies have got it wrong and it all comes down to one thing...

money.

No matter how advanced an alien civilization is, interstellar space travel has to be ridiculously expensive. Sending a force of thousands of ships and millions of troops would cost an unfathomable fortune and once they got here, the would have to fight a native population that is well evolved to this planet, on our own turf. The chances of this military invasion paying for itself is very slim. I think the cost/benefit ratio rules out an alien invasion.

The aliens sending scientists to study the earth is more plausible but then you have the issue of alien governments trying to justify the huge expense of going to earth to the taxpayers. It probably wouldn't win too many votes.

What I think is the most likely scenario is a billionaire space tourist like Steve Fosset or James Cameron coming to earth on an adventure vacation, most likely with a film crew to beam the images back to their home planet where the aliens would pay money to watch their adventures. That way the billionaire could make back some or most of his money. They would also make money by taking back souvenirs with them.

Hollywood should hire me. ;-D

 

[Judge]

Time will solve part of that dilemma. The good news? Money doesn't exist in the 24th century.

The bad news? But the Borg does.

 

[Kalinychta]

Well, Hollywood and people in general completely anthropomorphize ETs. We are afraid that if they come here, it will be to kill us and take over the planet, because that’s what we would do (see thousands of years of human violence and domination; and actually by “we” I mostly mean the people who really rule the world i.e. governments, billionaires, etc.).

It’s also highly unlikely that their technology would be the same as what the governments of the world have. It probably isn’t even physical in the way we think of physical. And for that matter, ETs are more likely to be inter-dimensional than extra-terrestrial (as in, coming from somewhere out in space).

 

[Kalinychta]

I just watched this the other day, and it’s really good. Might be of interest to you.

(trailer)

 

[Judge]

And for that matter, ETs are more likely to be inter-dimensional than extra-terrestrial (as in, coming from somewhere out in space).

Imagine if "demons" turned out to be ill-mannered aliens who can "pierce" this dimension. Could turn the paranormal world upside down. Hmmmm.

 

[Finder]

That is the problem? Not the irrational xenophobia and human exceptionalism? I think one of the most interesting films to date is Arrival.

 

[Pappy Boyington]

Time will solve part of that dilemma. The good news? Money doesn't exist in the 24th century.

Gene Roddenberry was always a bit of a pie in the sky utopian and that always annoyed me about Star Trek.

This idea that we can get past the need for money is just wishful thinking.

 

[Au Naturel]

I believe that there are two likely reasons why we haven't encountered extraterrestrials

One is that we haven't is because we are an "early" civilization. There has to be a certain concentration of the heavier atoms like carbon and phosphorus and iron before the chemistry of life can develop. And then it takes a long time before that life can achieve enough complexity to become interstellar space faring. Or at least complex enough to pick up their signals at distances of many light-years.

The other is that there is a Great Filter that stops life from getting that far. I suspect the filter is right ahead of us.

The question posited by the Fermi Paradox is essentially: Where is everyone? Once a civilization becomes spacefaring they could colonize the galaxy over a few million years even without light-speed travel.

Fermi paradox - Wikipedia

The Drake equation is an attempt to quantify what number of civilizations that it might be possible to detect. Given the vast number of stars in the galaxy and the fact that almost all of them seem to have planetary systems, either we happen to be one of the first or there is a great filter that stops most potential civilizations from becoming a reality.

Drake equation - Wikipedia

Maybe the conditions for life to evolve are very rare and once life evolves, the accident of intelligence is quite rare. Or maybe the filter is that civilizations with the capacity to become spacefaring self destruct. Or get bored with the idea and don't bother. A huge number of low probability events had to happen or we wouldn't be here.

We're in the middle of a great filter right now. Nuclear war could easily put an end to us as a spacefaring civilization. I'm less inclined to think of climate change or population growth as great filters but they are still a possibility. There's also the chance of a freak incident like a large comet impact, a supervolcano eruption or even less likely extinction level events.

 

[Finder]

Gene Roddenberry was always a bit of a pie in the sky utopian and that always annoyed me about Star Trek.

This idea that we can get past the need for money is just wishful thinking.

Why? Humans did not always have money. There are certainly socially organized animals that don't use money. Money is not a requirement for a functioning society.

 

[Pappy Boyington]

Well, Hollywood and people in general completely anthropomorphize ETs. We are afraid that if they come here, it will be to kill us and take over the planet, because that’s what we would do (see thousands of years of human violence and domination; and actually by “we” I mostly mean the people who really rule the world i.e. governments, billionaires, etc.).

Exactly! That's why the genre sell tickets, it plays into primal fears of invasion by the "other". When you start to think about the practical end of launching a military invasion over the distance of dozens of light years, the whole idea falls apart.

It’s also highly unlikely that their technology would be the same as what the governments of the world have. It probably isn’t even physical in the way we think of physical. And for that matter, ETs are more likely to be inter-dimensional than extra-terrestrial (as in, coming from somewhere out in space).

This is highly speculative to say the least. We know that simple life began here almost 4 billion years ago so the chances that there's other life out there capable of creating a civilization is pretty good. It's also likely that they are so far away from us we will never be able to contact them.

 

[Au Naturel]

What we are going to run into is something I call the "Star Trek Problem."

What do you do when technology is advanced enough there is simply no point in most humans working? We're getting there. All those good-paying blue-collar jobs in industry have gone to robots. What has replaced them is low-paying jobs in service industries. The only reason those jobs aren't gone to automation is because the start-up costs still exceed minimum wages and people like to see a human face on their server.

When I was a child, one man with an 8th grade education could support a wife and kids in suburbia. Now he'd be in poverty and close to unemployable. Even if he has a college degree, if it isn't in a discipline that is in demand, he still needs a partner with a similar job just to stay in the working class. Of course, they send off the toddlers to daycare (or granny if they are lucky) instead of being home with a parent. That leads to a drop in the quality of childrearing when the parents are both just workbots.

Soon even more jobs will be taken by automation. We are going to need to adapt to the fact that most people cannot get decent jobs anymore because humans are no longer economically viable.

 

[SusanLR]

There is also the question of what you call life.
Human existance as we know it is one type of life form.
If the experience isn't holographic, then there are probably many type of beings that
aren't anything like our human make up. I consider human bodies as rather dense
and very fragile. Short life spans. And, yes, the importance that has been put on physical money.

We don't know how other beings may live, how much their technology supercedes ours,
or if they even need what we call a physical space travel vessel.
Add in the equation the probability of multi verses and worm holes.
In my opinion we may be a very different existence that is incapable of ever knowing how
to space travel distances needed to reach other regions beyond our nearby rock planets such
as the moon and maybe Mars. Specks of dust in an endless, unfathomable universe(s).

To think we are the only concious problem solving beings in the whole of the matter
seems an illogical way of thought.
Have we been visited or being visited by other worldly beings? I think so.
But, I don't worry about an apocalyptic invasion.
There are many ways the world may end and end it will someday.

Because humans have made money the thing to create with and need to live well with,
the idea of us spending it to get our hunky technology to nearby planetary rocks in orbit
seems a waste. What will it achieve, really? A rock from somewhere than Earth?
They fall freely from space to us everyday. I have a collection of them.
The money used in trying to get there could be put to a meaningful purpose for humans
on our planet in the present. My opinion.

 

[Misery]

It’s also highly unlikely that their technology would be the same as what the governments of the world have. It probably isn’t even physical in the way we think of physical. And for that matter, ETs are more likely to be inter-dimensional than extra-terrestrial (as in, coming from somewhere out in space).

Aye, this is the sort of thing that always bugs me about stuff like this the most.

People have this tendency to think that only things that make sense in their current rather arrogant worldview can exist. Therefore all aliens will be humanoid. Any aliens that arent humanoid in shape will probably be more like a mutated dog/cat, and will be mostly brainless monsters. To step away from these ideas is rare. Though every now and then you do get the occasional writhing ball of evil tentacles or something. But overall, it almost always resembles various forms of life on Earth.

And of course writers and whatnot also have this idea that the audience must be able to... ahem... "identify" with the characters, which includes the aliens (regardless of what role said aliens have). This is one reason why, in alot of anime and video games, alien/monster/demon characters will have a "true" form, and then for nothing resembling a reason they'll also have a human form, and they'll spend 99% of their time in that human form. Cant IDENTIFY with them otherwise OMG. Though for live-action stuff there's also a need for aliens to be humanoid so actors can actually portray them without wearing some giant mess of an animatronic costume or something overly troublesome like that. At least that part does make actual practical sense.

The only big exception I can think of is Star Trek. Yes there's alot of humanoid characters, but I do seem to recall an actual lore reason as to why that's the case. And they do rather frequently bring in non-humanoid aliens, or things that dont even have a physical body (not just Q, though obviously he's the biggest example). Star Trek can get *weird* and it does so on a regular basis. Exactly one of the reasons why I like it so much.

 

[menander]

If aliens have a secure source of provisions that do not require money, it would be no problem. If people did not need to eat and could just photosynthesize or something, we would not need money. We are trapped by food and water needs. But Aliens who could harvest the sun's energy for food and fuel could easily come on by.

 

[menander]

I just watched this the other day, and it’s really good. Might be of interest to you.

(trailer)

I am interested in this but all the music and fast movements were really distracting. Are they saying we can all contact aliens or what? It seems like we all have to become Buddhists to do so? Can you give me the gyst without all that chaos? Looks itneresting if I could get a grasp on it.

 

[Judge]

Gene Roddenberry was always a bit of a pie in the sky utopian and that always annoyed me about Star Trek.

This idea that we can get past the need for money is just wishful thinking.

You used the word "genre" in the title of this thread. A genre is a category indicative of artistic expression. Not a documentary reflecting a perception of reality. Star Trek is a television and film franchise. Art in the form of fiction that only speculates on a future reality. In the universe of Gene Roddenberry, the Earth had to endure a devastating third world war before humanity decided to abandon the ways of the past. Perhaps a world with a fraction of the population of its past.

If you intended for this to be a discussion based on scientific and empirical reasoning, when it comes to what we truly know about extraterrestrials it's likely to be quite brief. Otherwise virtually all perspectives offered are likely to be based on references to fictional film, television and literature.

The main problem I see in earthly assessments of extraterrestrials is that for the most part they inevitably view them primarily in an ethnocentric manner. Where the extraterrestrials portrayed tend to act, communicate and even look more human, while there is utterly no scientific basis to make such assumptions. Also we are prone to applying a limited point of reference based only on our past and present, without truly understanding possibilities of the future.

This is why of all such fictional works, the one I most appreciate at present is the film "Arrival". One which makes a sincere attempt at depicting aliens in the most literal fashion. Where they look anything but human, and communicate in a manner that we could not immediately relate to, let alone understand.

When it comes to humanity and whatever approach it may take to actually making "first contact", I suppose time is may be the most likely variable to alter the human state to a point where the reality of a distant future just might be very different from the reality of the present. One can cynically state this will never happen, but then again just imagine the Founding Fathers looking at the nation they created some 244 years later. In most ways they would either be astounded or horrified.

Ultimately we can only speculate with a minimum of assumptions on such issues. Particularly if our ethnocentric perspectives remain limited to human fictional references rather than a limited scope of scientific speculation. Leading to far more questions than answers. Especially if their science is beyond- even completely "outside" of the limits our understanding.

 

[Crossbreed]

I think one of the most interesting films to date is Arrival.

(Do you mean the movie that missed the obvious names for its aliens, Kang & Kodos...?)

 

[Crossbreed]

We are afraid that if they come here, it will be to kill us and take over the planet, because that’s what we would do...

Even Earth-bound seafarers were notorious for over-hunting islands to extinction.

(Somebody obviously missed the story, To Serve Man...)

That episode was originally broadcast two days before I was born...!

 

[Barymore]

@Au Naturel - universal basic income *boom* (rather off topic and likely off thread but I couldnt not)

 

[Kalinychta]

Aye, this is the sort of thing that always bugs me about stuff like this the most.

People have this tendency to think that only things that make sense in their current rather arrogant worldview can exist. Therefore all aliens will be humanoid. Any aliens that arent humanoid in shape will probably be more like a mutated dog/cat, and will be mostly brainless monsters. To step away from these ideas is rare. Though every now and then you do get the occasional writhing ball of evil tentacles or something. But overall, it almost always resembles various forms of life on Earth.

And of course writers and whatnot also have this idea that the audience must be able to... ahem... "identify" with the characters, which includes the aliens (regardless of what role said aliens have). This is one reason why, in alot of anime and video games, alien/monster/demon characters will have a "true" form, and then for nothing resembling a reason they'll also have a human form, and they'll spend 99% of their time in that human form. Cant IDENTIFY with them otherwise OMG. Though for live-action stuff there's also a need for aliens to be humanoid so actors can actually portray them without wearing some giant mess of an animatronic costume or something overly troublesome like that. At least that part does make actual practical sense.

The only big exception I can think of is Star Trek. Yes there's alot of humanoid characters, but I do seem to recall an actual lore reason as to why that's the case. And they do rather frequently bring in non-humanoid aliens, or things that dont even have a physical body (not just Q, though obviously he's the biggest example). Star Trek can get *weird* and it does so on a regular basis. Exactly one of the reasons why I like it so much.

Exactly! Which is why Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind is so interesting to me. I’ve been intrigued by this this topic my entire life, and I’ve always been perplexed re: ETs having primate physiology... I think extraterrestrials are interdimensional, not physical in the way we understand. I don’t think we’re in any way, on any level, capable of understanding any of it with our human brains.