There's 'er problem I hate Volkswagen part 2

[MildredHubble]

Ok on a hunch I took a look at my dad's car today and took off the cam belt cover and...

It may not show up very well but if you look closely you may just be able to see some scored metal to the left of the bolts. That's a sign of where the cam shaft pulley sprockets should be. @Nitro I thought this might make you chuckle a bit!

And now I need to find my wrench and start muttering about premium German cars!

 

[Billthecat]

Better also change belt and bearing

 

[Magna]

I loved my VW diesel Beetle 5 speed. 50 miles per gallon of fuel and probably 250,000 miles on it. I hated my VW diesel Beetle 5 speed when the serpentine belt broke about five hours from home which caused the engine to blow up. Bad design in my opinion when the integrity of the engine is dependent on the integrity of one replaceable part.

 

[Nitro]

Ok on a hunch I took a look at my dad's car today and took off the cam belt cover and...

View attachment 91670

View attachment 91671
It may not show up very well but if you look closely you may just be able to see some scored metal to the left of the bolts. That's a sign of where the cam shaft pulley sprockets should be. @Nitro I thought this might make you chuckle a bit!

And now I need to find my wrench and start muttering about premium German cars!

I've see that happen before.


That's because they stole that design from the Rolls-Canardley Motorworks

 

[MildredHubble]

Better also change belt and bearing

That's good advice, but not with this car. It's not gone well so far mostly because I'm just too cold and in too much pain.

It's just not getting any more than the bare minimum from me. It's typical VAG junk. Solving problems with this car is like a game of whackamole! I had to loosen the belt tensioner, discovered it was already loose. Now I have an Allen wrench stuck between an engine mount and the tensioner. That one is my own fault for trying to cut a corner. But I'm just too cold to be bothered with it.

If it had been a car worth the effort then I'd still be out there now. But quite simply it's not.

So now I need to either sacrifice an allen wrench or remove an engine mount. Guess which one I'm going for!? Lol!

 

[Captain Jigglypuff]

My dad’s friend had a VW and it was a nightmare during the state inspection and emissions time for his car. For four years he had a check engine light that would not go away and he spent so much money trying to fix it. He got rid of the car this year I believe and he is so much happier with his new car. My dad says the way the Germans make a car and put it together is why they lost two major wars.

 

[MildredHubble]

I've see that happen before.


That's because they stole that design from the Rolls-Canardley Motorworks

I see! Lol! I've never once encountered anything like it in 18 years of throwing wrenches at cars! It's clear the metal on the pulleys is very prone to temperature changes! I loosed off the bolts and then 10 minutes later the bolts were all tight again!

I'm having to walk away from it as it was starting to push my buttons! I'm having a bit of trouble getting the belt back on and that's mostly due to my little error with the Allen wrench.

On the plus side the sprockets are back in position I just need to get the belt back on. But to be honest I hope the engine just blows up and I can move on with my life!

 

[Nitro]

I see! Lol! I've never once encountered anything like it in 18 years of throwing wrenches at cars! It's clear the metal on the pulleys is very prone to temperature changes! I loosed off the bolts and then 10 minutes later the bolts were all tight again!

I'm having to walk away from it as it was starting to push my buttons! I'm having a bit of trouble getting the belt back on and that's mostly due to my little error with the Allen wrench.

On the plus side the sprockets are back in position I just need to get the belt back on. But to be honest I hope the engine just blows up and I can move on with my life!

Is there a U shaped thrust washer that keeps the cam from walking that broke?

I'm sure that you are aware that the cam/cams have to be timed properly as well, correct?

 

[MildredHubble]

Is there a U shaped thrust washer that keeps the cam from walking that broke?

I'm sure that you are aware that the cam/cams have to be timed properly as well, correct?

There doesn't seem to be. I understand about the timing, I've marked everything so theoretically everything should be lined up. Normally I would do things the proper way and remove the appropriate engine mounts etc but this car has extracted enough from me lol!

Everything should be more or less right once I get the belt lined up and on. My short cut with the tensioner has kinda boxed me in and is getting in the way. I will need to locate a hacksaw and cut the Allen wrench so I can remove it.

I'm hoping that any minor timing issues can be solved now that I have some wiggle room with the pulleys. They are lined up with the original bolt impressions so touch wood, nothing catastrophic should happen. But I will proceed with caution. I've had to call it a day as the cold is really setting off my aches and pains and being hunched over the engine in the dark is a bit too much for me right now.

So, I guess, cross your fingers for "part 3" tomorrow!? Lol!

Honestly I should just get to work on my Nissan, it just needs a few minor jobs to get it up and running. Health issues have just gotten in the way and every time I have the energy to deal with it this Passat throws some kind of tantrum and I end up spending my energy on that.

 

[Nitro]

There doesn't seem to be. I understand about the timing, I've marked everything so theoretically everything should be lined up. Normally I would do things the proper way and remove the appropriate engine mounts etc but this car has extracted enough from me lol!

Everything should be more or less right once I get the belt lined up and on. My short cut with the tensioner has kinda boxed me in and is getting in the way. I will need to locate a hacksaw and cut the Allen wrench so I can remove it.

I'm hoping that any minor timing issues can be solved now that I have some wiggle room with the pulleys. They are lined up with the original bolt impressions so touch wood, nothing catastrophic should happen. But I will proceed with caution. I've had to call it a day as the cold is really setting off my aches and pains and being hunched over the engine in the dark is a bit too much for me right now.

So, I guess, cross your fingers for "part 3" tomorrow!? Lol!

Honestly I should just get to work on my Nissan, it just needs a few minor jobs to get it up and running. Health issues have just gotten in the way and every time I have the energy to deal with it this Passat throws some kind of tantrum and I end up spending my energy on that.

Most of the double overhead cammers I worked on had cams that needed retained because of the valve springs trying to rotate the camshafts.

It would be prudent to at least start with the crank at TDC and then go from there.

 

[MildredHubble]

Most of the double overhead cammers I worked on had cams that needed retained because of the valve springs trying to rotate the camshafts.

It would be prudent to at least start with the crank at TDC and then go from there.

Definitely! That's exactly what happened, slackened the belt and one slipped forward. But fortunately I had marked it before hand so I'm not too worried. If it was a car that had earned a place in my heart I would be more careful. But it's just the most irritating excuse for a car I've ever encountered lol!

So my plan is to do as you suggested, get everything lined up to TDC and then crank it a few times without starting it to see how it behaves.

It can't be too far away from where it should be timing wise. But we shall see!

 

[Nitro]

My shops cranked out a bunch of timing belt jobs.
Honda, which was once in my opinion one of the finest vehicles produced were what are known as interference engines.

Their belts typically lasted longer than most simply by design, but it was not a good idea to push one past the recommended interval because as soon as the cam stopped, it would bend at least one valve.
That in turn forces your hand to yank the cylinder head off for the repair.
That VW uses a similar belt design as the older Hondas.
Having no experience with that engine, I can't say if it is a valve interference engine, but if the car has a pronounced de3ad hole misfire after you get it running, you will know right away.


The rest of the manufacturers used a blocky looking belt that instead of rolling over the pulleys had to flex to do it.
Generally they shed their teeth, but because there was no interference, they didn't bend any valves.

Now the next question.
Stuff on an engine generally just doesn't fly apart without some sort of a part failure.
Timing belts will only jump time if the tensioner fails or the change interval is ignored and the belt is stretched.
Without standing in front of the ride, all I can do is speculate.
What it the tensioner idler pulley bearing that failed and let it jump time?
If neither of those are a part of the equation, then you will need to further investigate the issue so it doesn't fail while driving it.

 

[Nitro]

On another note, we generally recommended replacing the water pump when the work was already opened up.
A PM that will save you double labor for the cost of the pump.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

I see! Lol! I've never once encountered anything like it in 18 years of throwing wrenches at cars! It's clear the metal on the pulleys is very prone to temperature changes! I loosed off the bolts and then 10 minutes later the bolts were all tight again!

I'm having to walk away from it as it was starting to push my buttons! I'm having a bit of trouble getting the belt back on and that's mostly due to my little error with the Allen wrench.

On the plus side the sprockets are back in position I just need to get the belt back on. But to be honest I hope the engine just blows up and I can move on with my life!

My example of bad design comes from Toyota. I used to have a Tercel wagon. With two whitewater canoes atop I was guranteed never to speed unless it was downhill with a tailwind. Toyota put the (electric) radiator fan in front of the radiator. One trip we hit swarms of grasshoppers in Montana. Dead grasshoppers packed the entire space around the fan inside the cowling. What a mess, and it burnt out the fan motor, too.

 

[MildredHubble]

My shops cranked out a bunch of timing belt jobs.
Honda, which was once in my opinion one of the finest vehicles produced were what are known as interference engines.

Their belts typically lasted longer than most simply by design, but it was not a good idea to push one past the recommended interval because as soon as the cam stopped, it would bend at least one valve.
That in turn forces your hand to yank the cylinder head off for the repair.
That VW uses a similar belt design as the older Hondas.
Having no experience with that engine, I can't say if it is a valve interference engine, but if the car has a pronounced de3ad hole misfire after you get it running, you will know right away.


The rest of the manufacturers used a blocky looking belt that instead of rolling over the pulleys had to flex to do it.
Generally they shed their teeth, but because there was no interference, they didn't bend any valves.

Now the next question.
Stuff on an engine generally just doesn't fly apart without some sort of a part failure.
Timing belts will only jump time if the tensioner fails or the change interval is ignored and the belt is stretched.
Without standing in front of the ride, all I can do is speculate.
What it the tensioner idler pulley bearing that failed and let it jump time?
If neither of those are a part of the equation, then you will need to further investigate the issue so it doesn't fail while driving it.

It's certainly an interference engine and has variable valve lift.

The problem as I understand it, based on a couple of YouTube videos I saw, the pulleys just twist round sometimes. The 4 bolts, I presume are there to fine tune the timing so there's a bit of slack and you advance or retard by rotating them then locking them in place.

My theory is that the rapid drop in temperature here caused the pulleys to slip out of position. My dad described the problem when he broke down, he had just started the engine and reversed out of a parking space. He put it in forward gear and as soon as he gave it some gas it cut out. Then it wouldn't start up again.

So I think the slip isn't due to anything serious, though the tensioner was slightly loose. So that could be a factor.

The engine would start after excessive cranking, at least a couple of times but it couldn't idle.

I think that it's effectively retarded the timing of the engine beyond the range it can run in this temperature (if I'm modeling it right in my mind of course). It's a diesel engine, I'm more in tune with petrol engines but as I understand it, a diesel can be more fussy about timing.

I guess I will be able to at least be able to get a partial answer if all goes well tomorrow!

 

[MildredHubble]

My example of bad design comes from Toyota. I used to have a Tercel wagon. With two whitewater canoes atop I was guranteed never to speed unless it was downhill with a tailwind. Toyota put the (electric) radiator fan in front of the radiator. One trip we hit swarms of grasshoppers in Montana. Dead grasshoppers packed the entire space around the fan inside the cowling. What a mess, and it burnt out the fan motor, too.

That is certainly a bit of an odd design decision! I don't think I've ever seen one in that configuration. I'd imagine it was probably a space saving measure, perhaps if they redesigned front end and the fan was a bit close to the exhaust the heat could cause issues. Then someone might think, "Oh I know, I will just chuck it on the front, problem solved!".

I have certainly found some head scratching design choices on cars. Unfortunately most of them have been found on this particular car!

 

[MildredHubble]

Actually thinking about it, the timing would be too far advanced, or maybe I'm just going a bit mad and in need of a warm bath and a decent night's sleep and my brain will be running more efficiently.

 

[Nitro]

Na, I'm going to rule out metal pulleys shrinking.
If that were the case, all of the fits on the engine would go out of sorts.

 

[MildredHubble]

Na, I'm going to rule out metal pulleys shrinking.
If that were the case, all of the fits on the engine would go out of sorts.

Maybe the last person in there hadn't torqued them up enough? Also the tensioner nut was barely finger tight. The only thing that I can think of is the very cold temperatures here being a factor, hence my theory that the pulleys could have shrunk just enough for them to slip.

It's been fine engine wise for 4-5 years apart from an issue with the over engineered EGR valve seizing last year in fairly cold weather. We haven't had a winter like this though since my dad bought the car.

The bolts are tempered steel but the pulleys, based on the corrosion, are made out of something quite a bit milder. So the rate at which the expand and contract might just be enough.

On the YouTube video I saw all they had to do was adjust the pulley back into position and the car was starting and idling without issue. But before that it wouldn't start at all.

Whatever the cause, it seems that it's not all that uncommon on these cars.

The only other engine related issue we've had is that each winter it would blow the intake pipe off. It was like clockwork every year! The metal retaining clip (basically a huge circlip) would just loosen spontaneously. In the end I took it off, crushed it slightly and heated it with a blow torch. Once it has cooled I clipped it back in and so far it hasn't blown off again.

Contrary to the often held view that VW are quality cars, I have seen very little that lives up to that reputation on the two we've had.

Our neighbour has the latest model of Passat and his has been parked in the same spot for 3 months now. It's barely 3 years old!

 

[Nitro]

Na, I'm still sticking to my guns about metal shrinkage.
My experience as a machinist and a mech engineer tells me that is bunk.
The pulleys look to be sintered in nature, likely a steel composition which would have nearly the same shrink rate as the fasteners.
Grab a magnet if you want to prove it.
Aluminum would never hold up to the wear they would encounter, nor would most zinc alloys.
You had a mechanical failure.
If the fasteners were loose, that sounds to be it.

I still won't rule out a stretched belt, weak tensioner and the cold exacerbating the problem.