Trouble with fiction, stories, and ultimately NTs

[Slime_Punk]

(Sorry if I posed this in the wrong place, I'm beginning to think I did)

Does anybody else have this version of ASD?

It feels like I have short-term memory for anything that isn't 'real', 'true' or factual. I can't follow stories (even when I want to), but I can absorb information about a special interest like a sponge, especially when it's something I can prove and replicate with sorcery (math, programming, logic, etc). It seems like my brain is just locked into finding true / false values and can't really understand the gray area that stories (and possibly even real-life people, unfortunately) possess.

This definitely has its obvious social implications (I seriously couldn't make up a lie if somebody offered me a million dollars, and it's difficult for me to figure out peoples' true intentions sometimes), and I wouldn't doubt that there's a high overlap between fiction, storytelling and right-brained skills at this point because they seem so easily-interwoven.

This also seems to fall in line with brutal honesty, to a fault, which doesn't really go over well with NTs. Ever had this, or have any cool tips on how to deal with it?

 

[Rodafina]

I don’t think this will be helpful to you, but you did make me think. I think I may be exactly the opposite – as an adaptive way to figure out how to survive in a confusing world, I think I have lived through fantasy for a long time now.

It seems like my brain is just locked into finding true / false values and can't really understand the gray area that stories (and possibly even real-life people, unfortunately) possess.

This, I can definitely relate to. Even in stories, I am still searching for the black-and-white. So there is no relationship between black and white and fiction versus nonfiction for me. I still interpret my fantasy and fictional stories with a pretty all or nothing lens. In this vein of thinking, I would add I am definitely drawn to stories with clear heroes and villains and sometimes predictable storylines.

I don’t want to get too far away from the topic you posted, but you definitely made me think this morning.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

I have what you are describing, as well.

When I went in for my initial autism testing, that was one of the tests,...give me a random assortment of objects on the table,...(a toy car, a bird feather, an eraser, a marble, a thimble, etc.)...now make up a story involving all these things. I looked at my psychologist, totally blanking out. So, she said,..."Ok, I will give you an example",...and then proceeded to tell this elaborate story, giving each object some "persona", moving these objects around like they were "action figures", giving them dialogue. I sat there again, perplexed and blank faced. "Ok, now you try." Once again, just sat there, it was like my brain wave activity had just gone "flat". I literally couldn't even start. I evidently scored a "zero" on that test.

Another example, my wife is an avid reader,...a novel a week,...all fiction. I can watch fiction,...Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Dune,...epic fictional stories,...but I could never see myself actually sitting down and reading the books. On the other hand, if you look at what I do read, it's 99.99% scientific journals, instructional manuals, books on scientific topics,...non-fiction. If it isn't useful, it isn't worth putting it into my brain,...and remembering.

Like you, I am brutally honest and use direct language. After some 50+ years of dealing with people, I will usually warn them before I say something. My wife and family,...they know the drill. As a parent, my boys knew I never "bluffed",...if I said I was going to do something,...I did. A little fear and respect is good between father and son.

Socially, you are correct, it can be awkward. Everyone else is having their conversations about family, friends, books, movies, etc....and then whenever a rare opportunity presents itself where I can give some input on a "non-fiction" topic,...they don't want to hear it from me. Furthermore, as an instructor, standing up in front of a class and giving a lecture,...I can talk until their brains give up and stop working,...they're "captive". However, as soon as class lets out and I have to deal with students socially,...it's limited to meaningless "small talk",...and if they are in a group,...I can't deal with that. I do not have the ability to jump in and out of a group conversation,...so I will sit it out and watch silently.

As far as understanding intentions,...no,...not at all. If I am concentrating on a person's "non-verbal" language and voice modulation,...I can observe it,...but may not be processing the meaning behind it all for hours or even days afterward,...I can't do it in the "moment". By then, the interaction has occurred,...for better or worse. I have a wife that can help out with these sorts of things,...like dealing with sales people, answering the front door, taking the phone calls, being the "social director", etc. There are times, certainly, where I am pushed into doing all these things, making appointments, face-to-face with students, co-workers, patient families, etc,...but I am very self aware of myself and do quite a bit of masking.

 

[Luca]

Yes, I'm like this too!! This is going to be a long one lol. But I'm so glad you brought this up because I've never felt like I was really able to talk about this!

There are a few fiction stories/novels that I'm able to deal with reading, but it takes me way longer to read fiction than nonfiction because it doesn't really hold my interest, and like you said, it's hard to follow.
I'm trying to read more fiction just because I love reading and I want to be more open-minded. But I can blow through a nonfiction book in about an hour while it might take me days to finish a novel. It's really hard to explain but I feel like I get so much more distracted when I'm trying to read a work of fiction, or watch a movie or a tv series.

~I hope nothing I say here upsets anyone because these are just my opinions (some of them are kind of jokey and sarcastic too) and I'm certainly not a critic or anything, and I'm in no place to make a serious judgment about any films or novels or other media.~

That brings me to my next point. Movies!
I feel like I'm the only person on the planet who does not enjoy movies.
I love documentaries, and I will sit there watching anything about natural science, travel, music, or animals for hours. I also love informative/educational YouTube videos, and I like music videos.
But I have like the world's shortest attention span for movies. I actually really don't like seeing movies in the theater because it's a waste of money, since I get up about 500 times to get something to eat or go to the bathroom. I physically cannot sit still.

There are some movies that are exceptions to this rule though, and it's usually the ones that are more visually artistic, or the plot is more in line with reality, or if it makes me emotional, or if it's a really cute kids' movie (an example I always use of a movie I actually do like is The Hundred Foot Journey. I actually enjoyed the plot of that one. Other ones I have liked include The King's Speech, Disney/Pixar's Soul [and Coco, and Luca- the movie, not me lol], and another one I actually liked was Eighth Grade. That one made me sob.) I really had to think super hard to come up with ANY movies from recent memory that I liked lol.
I do occasionally like some Pixar animated movies, but most Disney movies, for me, are really meh. I don't have a lot of patience for watching them and I find a lot of them dull and they seem to recycle the same plots often. I am also not a fan of musicals. I wasn't a big Disney fan as a kid either. I know a lot of people really like Disney so I'm really sorry!!!

And as an aside, I know I've mentioned this before, but most horror movies for me are a HELL NO. I actually get really traumatized by them!
Paranormal movies are totally fine, but anything that shows torture, gore, psychological horror, body horror, kidnapping, sexual assault, or like stalker/slasher stuff completely messes up my mental health. A lot of those genres hit too close to home with things that have legitimately happened to me.
Movies where bad things happen to dogs, I obviously can't do either.

There are a select few tv series that I used to casually watch (NCIS, Supernatural, Ghost Hunters, to name a few) but I didn't spend much time thinking about them and would usually put them on in the background while I was doing art projects or something. I was never like a big "fan" of any of them, but some of them I couldn't watch anymore after feeling too much empathy for characters that bad things happened to. And Ghost Hunters just kind of ran its course lol. They rebooted it a few years ago but I didn't bother watching it.
MTV kind of ruined television for me because it's one of the only major channels I get on my current tv subscription package, so I tried putting some of the shows on as background noise, and the content that is on there is just totally absurd and bonkers. Like how many shows do you need about hillbilly teen pregnancy, harmful stereotypes about Italian-Americans, and drunk college kids on neverending Spring Break?
What happened to music???

I would have to say that the literary (and film) genres that I really can not get into at all are fantasy and sci-fi. I guess I really do have no imagination lol.
Can anyone guess what my best subject was in school? Lol... (Hint: it was wildlife biology, and animal behavior and genetics. Not literature or film)

Another thing that I've mentioned on here but only briefly I think, is my disinterest in video games. I know a lot of autistic people are super into gaming but I just don't enjoy video games at all. I have nothing against people who are gamers, and I'm not like incompatible with anyone who likes video games, but it's as much of a polar opposite interest of mine as you can possibly get.
Same goes for anything fandom-related. The closest I've ever gotten to fandom was painting a portrait of Maria Franz.

But I clearly DO enjoy art, music, photography, video editing, music mixing and production, and lots of other creative outlets. I also love card games and traditional board games (like classic card games- Uno, Poker, Snap, etc, not trading card games or anything. And board games like "Sorry," etc.)

I didn't mean to turn this into a whole rant lol, and sorry if this post was kind of a mess. But I don't have the greatest relationship with fiction, and media overall. I could elaborate on this more but it gets a bit more complicated than what I've described here and probably needs its own thread.

Does what I've said here make sense though? Can anyone else relate to this? Maybe I simply lack an imagination and I need to be less grounded in reality.
That is hilarious coming from me since I have about as not-serious of a personality as you can get lol

 

[AprilR]

I really liked fiction in the past but nowadays can't read much. I enjoy webnovels though, especially if i like the characters.

 

[Slime_Punk]

Socially, you are correct, it can be awkward. Everyone else is having their conversations about family, friends, books, movies, etc....and then whenever a rare opportunity presents itself where I can give some input on a "non-fiction" topic,...they don't want to hear it from me. Furthermore, as an instructor, standing up in front of a class and giving a lecture,...I can talk until their brains give up and stop working,...they're "captive". However, as soon as class lets out and I have to deal with students socially,...it's limited to meaningless "small talk",...and if they are in a group,...I can't deal with that. I do not have the ability to jump in and out of a group conversation,...so I will sit it out and watch silently.

Wow, I definitely relate to this. I could also stand up in front of a crowd and present something if it was a special interest, meanwhile shrinking back into social anxiety and borderline panic over the small talk afterward.

I guess 'little professor syndrome' (or for adults, professor syndrome) is a really good label for all of this!

This, I can definitely relate to. Even in stories, I am still searching for the black-and-white. So there is no relationship between black and white and fiction versus nonfiction for me. I still interpret my fantasy and fictional stories with a pretty all or nothing lens. In this vein of thinking, I would add I am definitely drawn to stories with clear heroes and villains and sometimes predictable storylines.

Wow, it's almost like your brain has overcome the obstacle by translating it over! That is the coolest thing I've ever heard, and probably exactly what my goal would be in life in an attempt to understand things / people better.

And as an aside, I know I've mentioned this before, but most horror movies for me are a HELL NO. I actually get really traumatized by them!
Paranormal movies are totally fine, but anything that shows torture, gore, psychological horror, body horror, kidnapping, sexual assault, or like stalker/slasher stuff completely messes up my mental health.

Tangent ahead

Everybody I know thinks I'm a wiener for this. I have to check the IMDB content advisory before I watch anything because one gross scene could ruin like an entire month for me, if not longer. Thankfully my wife has adapted, and usually our options are ghost hunting TV shows or some kind of cartoon.

Another thing that I've mentioned on here but only briefly I think, is my disinterest in video games. I know a lot of autistic people are super into gaming but I just don't enjoy video games at all. I have nothing against people who are gamers, and I'm not like incompatible with anyone who likes video games, but it's as much of a polar opposite interest of mine as you can possibly get.

I always felt like a rare aspie for feeling that way about gaming. I used to try really hard to get into them in the past but lately I've just given up because they don't stimulate my creativity mode and that's essentially all I care about in my free time anymore.

But I clearly DO enjoy art, music, photography, video editing, music mixing and production, and lots of other creative outlets. I also love card games and traditional board games (like classic card games- Uno, Poker, Snap, etc, not trading card games or anything. And board games like "Sorry," etc.)

This is actually a really good point to bring up because, despite the black and white thinking, I'm the same way. Somehow art, in its technical-meaninglessness (neither true nor false), it somehow gets spared from this binary way of thinking (for me, anyway), which doesn't make any sort of sense whatsoever. Also, sorry for quoting you a whole bunch but you brought up some really good points.

 

[Aspychata]

Defintely drawn to scientific journals, reading law cases, non-fiction. If l read fiction, it depends totally on the author's style of writing. I pick up a book, l guage the style it's written in. I am comfortable with linear thinking, so l can remember fiction if the events that happen are tied to the storyline or are funny bordering on ridiculous.

I just read about a meditation technique to try at the end of your day. Think of your events that happened backwards. Like before you went to bed, put your dirty clothes on the chair, talked to your sister, ate a rice bowl, put the rice bowl in the microwave. Opened the fridge and looked for the rice bowl. Sure you get the idea.

 

[Slime_Punk]

Defintely drawn to scientific journals, reading law cases, non-fiction. If l read fiction, it depends totally on the author's style of writing. I pick up a book, l guage the style it's written in. I am comfortable with linear thinking, so l can remember fiction if the events that happen are tied to the storyline or are funny bordering on ridiculous.

I just read about a meditation technique to try at the end of your day. Think of your events that happened backwards. Like before you went to bed, put your dirty clothes on the chair, talked to your sister, ate a rice bowl, put the rice bowl in the microwave. Opened the fridge and looked for the rice bowl. Sure you get the idea.

That's actually a really good idea to try. Maybe it can be exercised like a muscle through meditation!

 

[Luca]

Wow, I definitely relate to this. I could also stand up in front of a crowd and present something if it was a special interest, meanwhile shrinking back into social anxiety and borderline panic over the small talk afterward.

I guess 'little professor syndrome' (or for adults, professor syndrome) is a really good label for all of this!



Wow, it's almost like your brain has overcome the obstacle by translating it over! That is the coolest thing I've ever heard, and probably exactly what my goal would be in life in an attempt to understand things / people better.



Tangent ahead

Everybody I know thinks I'm a wiener for this. I have to check the IMDB content advisory before I watch anything because one gross scene could ruin like an entire month for me, if not longer. Thankfully my wife has adapted, and usually our options are ghost hunting TV shows or some kind of cartoon.



I always felt like a rare aspie for feeling that way about gaming. I used to try really hard to get into them in the past but lately I've just given up because they don't stimulate my creativity mode and that's essentially all I care about in my free time anymore.



This is actually a really good point to bring up because, despite the black and white thinking, I'm the same way. Somehow art, in its technical-meaninglessness (neither true nor false), it somehow gets spared from this binary way of thinking (for me, anyway), which doesn't make any sort of sense whatsoever. Also, sorry for quoting you a whole bunch but you brought up some really good points.

Are we the same person? Lol
Joking aside, I'm really glad I'm not the only Aspie who thinks in some of these ways! Everyone thinks I'm weird...

And yeah, on the topic of horror, I'm not sure if you saw because I don't remember what thread it was in, but I know I posted a bunch of statuses about it too... reading the plot of this movie (TW)

Spoiler: This movie is triggering

"Midsommar"

- just the plot, not seeing a single scene from the movie- literally destroyed my entire vacation and I had to come home a few days early. I was NOT dealing with sleeping by myself in a cabin in the woods after that.
If you clicked on the spoiler and have not already heard of the movie, please, do not look it up. I don't want you to have nightmares!!!

 

[Slime_Punk]

Are we the same person? Lol
Joking aside, I'm really glad I'm not the only Aspie who thinks in some of these ways! Everyone thinks I'm weird...

And yeah, on the topic of horror, I'm not sure if you saw because I don't remember what thread it was in, but I know I posted a bunch of statuses about it too... reading the plot of this movie (TW)

Spoiler: This movie is triggering

"Midsommar"

- just the plot, not seeing a single scene from the movie- literally destroyed my entire vacation and I had to come home a few days early. I was NOT dealing with sleeping by myself in a cabin in the woods after that.
If you clicked on the spoiler and have not already heard of the movie, please, do not look it up. I don't want you to have nightmares!!!

No offense to the people who actually like movies like this, but I seriously can't even comprehend feeling any type of joy over watching something like this, let alone turning ghostly white and feeling sick and panicky for weeks like I most likely would. That's so foreign to me that I have a hard time understanding it at all

 

[Luca]

No offense to the people who actually like movies like this, but I seriously can't even comprehend feeling any type of joy over watching something like this, let alone turning ghostly white and feeling sick and panicky for weeks like I most likely would. That's so foreign to me that I have a hard time understanding it at all

Same!!!
I'm gonna get a bit personal here, if that's ok...
I don't mean anything offensive towards anyone who enjoys them either, but I can't fathom it being enjoyable, especially as someone who has been through scenarios that are often depicted in those movies and nearly lost my life (but completely lost my mental wellbeing and ability to trust people or society.) I sometimes wonder if the directors of those movies ever stop and think about the people who are tormented by crippling PTSD because they have actually been tortured for someone's entertainment in real life.

Some people see my reactions to those movies and are like "Chill, it's just a movie" like no, not for me, it's not

I have been hospitalized with serious accidental injuries and chronic illnesses, and would still prefer that experience over seeing that type of movie. Probably sounds dramatic to some people, but nothing is worse than being forced to relive your PTSD nightmares and knowing that thousands of people find the same scenarios "thrilling."

Sorry if that got too dark btw...

 

[Slime_Punk]

Same!!!
I'm gonna get a bit personal here, if that's ok...
I don't mean anything offensive towards anyone who enjoys them either, but I can't fathom it being enjoyable, especially as someone who has been through scenarios that are often depicted in those movies and nearly lost my life (but completely lost my mental wellbeing and ability to trust people or society.) I sometimes wonder if the directors of those movies ever stop and think about the people who are tormented by crippling PTSD because they have actually been tortured for someone's entertainment in real life.

Some people see my reactions to those movies and are like "Chill, it's just a movie" like no, not for me, it's not

I have been hospitalized with serious accidental injuries and chronic illnesses, and would still prefer that experience over seeing that type of movie. Probably sounds dramatic to some people, but nothing is worse than being forced to relive your PTSD nightmares and knowing that thousands of people find the same scenarios "thrilling."

Sorry if that got too dark btw...

No, I think you're right. They just won't be able to understand because to them it's just fantasy, possibly something they think 'could never happen' to them. I don't have quite that level of PTSD, but at the level I do have it, I really can't stand even fighting, violence, and yelling in movies due to my own trauma.

 

[Aspychata]

I suffer from the effects of things done to me for a very long time, so l deal with PTSD that triggers nightmares. Nightmares mean that l am in denial during the day. I am a PTSD case study. So certain scenes can make my skin crawl. So l truly relate to all the previous posts. We probably should do a post on PTSD and how are you managing it today.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

My father is very much reality oriented like you say. I remember he tried to understand why I liked Dragon Ball anime and could not see other thing but that it was not realistic.

Over the years I have come to realize that he is not that "reality" oriented but "his reality" oriented. When I explained him that window glass is actually a super cooled liquid he was not able to "digest" it. Same with gay relations being natural with many apes examples and many other things. So he is very attached to what he have seen, touched, experienced and learned first hand to conform "his reality". In most cases is coincident with scientific reality, but not always.

I am way more flexible, but still have that part of me telling "that thing is not realistic" with movie physics, special effects or plots. So when something does not go as it scientifically should (even if it is fantasy) I tend to be aware of it. For example: Why does not Flash (a SuperSpeed running hero) end covered with mosquitoes when he runs?

There is one certain movie that was so so so SO unrealistic that I just started laughing and my wife told me that was the point of the movie, to have fun. So now I tend to be more forgiving on this kind of "realistic fails" of movies and try to just have fun.

(The super unrealistic movie was Sharknado, in case you want to try)

 

[Tom]

I think I have a foot in both the real and imagined, which seems to reflect my position on the spectrum.

But both seem to be crucial to me, for if I try and inhabit on or the other side exclusively I start to feel unwell mentally. I have always had to balance them.

This is not exactly OT, but just another aspect of the fact v fiction element.

 

[Rodafina]

Wow, I definitely relate to this. I could also stand up in front of a crowd and present something if it was a special interest, meanwhile shrinking back into social anxiety and borderline panic over the small talk afterward.

I am the same. People have been confused by my ability to command a crowd versus that to be in a crowd. I wonder if it has something to do with having a structure and a purpose while you are the presenter. The role is pretty clear and there is not often much back-and-forth unless you are answering questions. I find this very interesting, though

No offense to the people who actually like movies like this, but I seriously can't even comprehend feeling any type of joy over watching something like this, let alone turning ghostly white and feeling sick and panicky for weeks like I most likely would. That's so foreign to me that I have a hard time understanding it at all

As I have aged, I can no longer tolerate these kind of movies. But, not too long ago, I used to indulge in the darkest most horrifying stuff as a means of ultimate distraction. The intensity of these stories offered medication to treat mental pain and numbness, but allowed the comfort of knowing that it was pretend and being able to think of the actors as only actors. I think this is a luxury of people who have not suffered the types of trauma depicted in these movies, however.

 

[Luca]

No, I think you're right. They just won't be able to understand because to them it's just fantasy, possibly something they think 'could never happen' to them. I don't have quite that level of PTSD, but at the level I do have it, I really can't stand even fighting, violence, and yelling in movies due to my own trauma.

This is a dangerous mindset that some people have. Sadly, a lot of things people think "could never happen to them" happen all the time
And these things will keep happening, until the victims are finally heard and validated and someone demands change.

Breaking Code Silence is a great charity that deals with the topics of the things that happened to me. They have done a lot of awesome work with actually spreading awareness that institutional child abuse is, in fact, a thing (and that people/children do legitimately get tortured.)
But just a heads up, if you're easily triggered, you probably don't want to read the victim testimony on their site. But they are definitely worth supporting because they're telling stories like mine that people have never heard and didn't realize were happening.

I'm being purposely vague, btw, because I don't want to say anything too triggering for you or for anyone else.

And sorry for derailing this thread, especially about something dark!!!

 

[Sherlock77]

I rarely read fiction, really doesn't interest me... And right now this is the book I'm reading, it's large, lots of pages, and rather intriguing to my co-workers at lunch as I pull it out to read (I've had some questions)... But I love history, in this case history of the region I grew up in (and still live), the book was given to me by a friend and I suspect it might even be a university textbook...

 

[Au Naturel]

(Sorry if I posed this in the wrong place, I'm beginning to think I did)

Does anybody else have this version of ASD?

It feels like I have short-term memory for anything that isn't 'real', 'true' or factual. I can't follow stories (even when I want to), but I can absorb information about a special interest like a sponge, especially when it's something I can prove and replicate with sorcery (math, programming, logic, etc). It seems like my brain is just locked into finding true / false values and can't really understand the gray area that stories (and possibly even real-life people, unfortunately) possess.

This definitely has its obvious social implications (I seriously couldn't make up a lie if somebody offered me a million dollars, and it's difficult for me to figure out peoples' true intentions sometimes), and I wouldn't doubt that there's a high overlap between fiction, storytelling and right-brained skills at this point because they seem so easily-interwoven.

This also seems to fall in line with brutal honesty, to a fault, which doesn't really go over well with NTs. Ever had this, or have any cool tips on how to deal with it?

Yeah, that sounds a lot like ASD. It could be other things and I'm not a mental health expert, but it does sound like a lot of what I've heard other autistic folks say. Inability to navigate the subtleties of social interaction and inability to deal with living in a grey world are classic symptoms of high-function autism.

 

[Thinx]

Interesting thread. I am not able to do unstructured social interaction and believe this is a core issue in ASD. It's like a blank for me. I do recall as a young person continually yet not often, putting myself in social situations to improve, as advised by written and therapeutic sources, and just ending up either going to a quiet room somewhere, leaving asap, or occasionally talking on and on to someone who ultimately would smile say goodbye and I would never see again... no one, including me, had heard of autism.

Worked on it for many years. Published a text book on communication skills, but that was mainly in semi structured care related situations. I find that different, similar to where people on this thread have said, they can give a talk or teach, but not manage unstructured social interaction related to the same context. However I am pretty good at masking, but generally would be so uncomfortable in a truly unstructured social situation I would leave. Or say it's a break in an event, go and sit down. Or outside for a while.

This was what I found still to be operating after doing substantial work on myself.

But what I do find is, I like stories and fiction. Not anything upsetting or horror related unless it's so unbelievable in a silly or funny way it is humorous. I totally agree with the dichotomy demonstrated here, about how that issue does depend what one may have experienced and what trauma effects one has . Also with varied points made by @Luca about that.

This type of behaviour depicted in some supposedly fictional situation is shockingly, not fictional. People do this to others, and they work in responsible jobs and hide in plain sight. Often police know who they are. Our society permits this. They just get a friend or accomplice to lie for them if ever questioned. And their senior positions make it seem so hard to prosecute them.

Victims have to continually run and hide from these privileged people, that's how our society does this. We help victims run away and hide. And survivors feel shame these people should be wracked with. I imagine heaven as a place where these people will continually have to account for their actions, to a court of angels, who ask why did you do that? What made you feel you had any right whatsoever?

I do seem to enjoy fiction, and reading and writing it. Much is written in the heroic mode. I think possibly gamers often enjoy to feel heroic? I often have stories running in my head, or imagine myself as someone else or as myself being quietly heroic. Nice idea. However, I am not sure I would do well on the test @Neonatal RRT got zero for. It sounds weird. I could probably mask and do what she seemed to be doing. That test seems uncreative and odd to me.

With fiction and writing, there are lots of semi hidden structures to learn about, most skilled or successful writers of fiction are not doing it without studying these, and similar applies to any sophisticated or at depth successful, arts? Painting. Ceramics. Sculpture etc. You can't just do it with wax crayons and a wish to be good at it...