Understanding neurotypical empathy

[Tictactoe]

I was thinking, since neurotypicals claim they have tons of empathy, why do autistic people often feel rejected by the majority?
Surely if neurotypicals had empathy, they would make sure that everyone feels accepted, regardless of their differences.
Can't they put themselves in our shoes? What it feels like to be different to most other people?

I'm not suggesting that people on the spectrum don't have empathy, we just show it in different ways, or not in the 'correct' way.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

One, we have to be careful with generalizations. Two, what kind of empathy are we discussing here,...cognitive and/or emotional?

Many autistics are often quite good at emotional empathy,...will cry and laugh when it is appropriate, tears on the cheeks watching a sad movie scene,...whatever. However, perspective taking is often a mental exercise,...it is an active process that requires some degree of willingness or openness to it. In other words, even IF you have the mental wiring to have cognitive empathy,...it still requires some mental energy to really embrace another's perspective.

You see examples of this frequently in the people around you,...one moment they are loving, thoughtful, and caring,...and the next moment they are perhaps throwing around impulsive racial slurs, yelling expletives at someone, just being nasty towards another person or group. The later being emotional, impulsive thought patterns that completely bypass those logic centers responsible for perspective and cognitive empathy.

Not all autistics are lacking in cognitive empathy,...that is a generalization based upon studying mostly children and coming up with statistical analysis,...and even those that have difficulty with it, still can have it IF they pause and be thoughtful enough to ask the appropriate questions in order to understand another's perspective. As an adult, I am much better with these things than I was in my youth. However, I still have ZERO idea what my wife is thinking after some 37 years with her,...I don't get her hints,...I never have,...I have to be thoughtful enough to pause and ask.

But, more to the heart of your concerns,...the short answer is that many people embrace sameness and conversely, do not like differences,...especially in people around them,...this seemingly instinctual thing we call "tribalism". Whether it is your racial, religious, or political identity,...you tend to be attracted to what is similar to you. When it comes to behavioral things,...again,...if you act different, you're not welcome in the group,...part of the reason so many autistics have difficulties with socialization. Neurotypicals see something, however subtle it may be in our behavior,...and they back off. Many of us suffer from not being able to maintain a friendship,...part of it is us,...but part of it is also the other person not wanting to bond with someone who is "different". Because these innate feelings are being filtered through the amygdala, and not the logic centers, cognitive empathy is also bypassed. Hence, the issue in which you discussed above. This affects our ability to maintain employment, have successful marriages, find friends, our propensity for depression and suicide,...the list goes on and on.

 

[Darkkin]

Empathy is subjective to the individual. And biologically our (autistic) brains are physiologically different than allistic brains. It isn't a matter of putting themselves in our shoes. It is a matter of their own brain and moral make up as well as the impact of autistic sterotypes.

Keep in mind that autistics are the ones who are often seen as having no conscience due to flat or irregular affect. One of the leading sterotypes of autism is that it robs once 'allistic' kids of their emotions and ability to interact. There is a belief that autistics cannot feel emotions, that as a whole, we are robotic.

The reality is that most autistics feel emotion, plenty of it. Where it gets complicated is in the indentification of said emotions. Alexithymia. Because autistics struggle to respond in an expected way, it is assumed that autistics do not possess empathy, thusly in the eyes of society are different.

Where things get interesting is sociopathy has an occurence of nearly 4% of the population (US). Psychopathy is about 1% (US). BPD has an occurence of about 1.6% within the population (US). The autism rate is about 2.8% (US). The rate of NPD is nearly 5% of the population (US).

You have almost twice the chance of running into a sociopath or a narcissist than you do an autistic. The thing about sociopathy, these folks don't struggle with alexithymia. They just don't have a conscience. Like autistics, they too, have to learn to mask.

And how many people don't consider themselves different? Ask a majority of people and they will tell you that they feel like they do not fit in with society. ADHD allistics account for nearly 10% of the population (US). Depression effects 33% of the population (US). Most people will tell you they are different.

Empathy is not a straight forward process is a confluence of emotions, circumstances, individuals and how they interact.

 

[Storm Hess]

At times I get flooded with emotion and other times I am completely clueless. I will get emotional when a subject relates to my experiences or a reminder of something similiar. Yet, when my wife gets upset at why I am not understanding how she feels, all I can say is that "I'm not you...I can't feel what you feel, I can only try to understand it." Somethings are very jarring to me, others are not. Could be a scene in a movie, could be a certain smell, yet, I have difficulty in reaching a cloud of distinction and understanding within the realm of my own relationship. At times I wish I was a sociopath, because then maybe I could stop it altogether and not care how I or anyone else is feeling. Maybe the meltdowns would stop, the worry and depression would go away. Maybe then I wouldn't be so mentally and emotionally torn at times.

 

[Slim Jim]

This is interesting ,cause I observed this alot, empathy in action, just NT being NT and everything, I'm sure you've seen it...maybe it's different for everybody. I don't know what goes in other people heads. That's so subjective.

Sometimes others are showing great displays of affect, being all empathetic .. While I'm all analytical, detached, un-affected, this dissonance, naturally lads to feelings of "otherness."

This dissonance, in the midst of others, if prolonged, leads to a kind of slight psychological unease, I grind to a stand still, go mentally idle, and just go all inward. Like, I must appear either quiet, or lost in thought.

But most times I don't feel connected on any emotional level. Yet, If I was to force myself to harmonize, I feel like a actor, putting on a performance. And if I don't harmonize my affect, then I'm seen as aloof. This cold impersonal intellect. Awkward. Stubborn. Different.

If I feeling detached, and still interacting, I might start to inofodump, just talk about what I want to talk about...a little more personal, I might tell a anecdotes, stories, or make joking remarks. Which can get positive reactions. As it breaks tension. Literally, laughter is a nervous reaction, and tension just leaves the body.

Most of the time I guess I strike balance, kinda. I've never felt normal. Everything was always odd and alien too me. But I can superficially appear like anybody else. This cold impersonal part of me , does make me feel at times like I give off sociopathic signals. They way I act. Because inside the part of me that can just harmonize with others, effortless, naturally ,is just missing. It's just not there. (Mirror Neurons.) And if it was , it got broken somewhere along the way. Probably in childhood. But even then. I was somewhat aloof and very odd, insular, yet I had friends, in the midst of people constantly. I picked up their ways I guess, through osmosis. That's why I believe I can read people very well, their body language, better than I supposed to be able to.

But as far as NT's having empathy, Depends on what subsection of the population, you're talking about. I don't see a lot of empathy in this world. Alot of feigned empathy maybe.

And I have always valued truth, over conformity. Conveying truths, over just being sentimental with somebody. Even if that''s not showing the right amount of sympathy/ empathy, society expects from you.

 

[Tictactoe]

It seems my idea of empathy had me all mixed up. My thought pattern was like this : Neurotypical can see that autistic person is different to him/herself so decides to bully this person. Neurotypical person can then see that autistic person has become upset over this so makes an effort to ensure the autistic person feels accepted. But that isn't the way empathy works right?

Thanks for the replies all, it's nice to get different feedback.

 

[Darkkin]

An allistic kid is not going to take a look at their peers and say: Hey, an autistic kid, I'm gonna pick on them.

People target others for as many reasons as there are people. It doesn't matter if they are neurotypical or neurodivergent. Cruelty is cruelty.

And the kid who notices the other kid is upset, a lot of the time the noticer is an NDer.

 

[StrayCat]

But that isn't the way empathy works right?

Empathy in normal humans is highly selective. It works well for "in group". But the bullied kid was already framed as outsider (autistic), so empathy won't work there.

This is why learning to mask is sadly important survival skill, you cannot let others frame you as an outsider. If you let them do that, you are screwed, because you become acceptable target for bullying... No empathy for you, you will actually get "reverse empathy", basically, bullying you will become rewarding and bonding experience for the whole group...

 

[Tictactoe]

Empathy in normal humans is highly selective. It works well for "in group". But the bullied kid was already framed as outsider (autistic), so empathy won't work there.

This is why learning to mask is sadly important survival skill, you cannot let others frame you as an outsider. If you let them do that, you are screwed, because you become acceptable target for bullying... No empathy for you, you will actually get "reverse empathy", basically, bullying you will become rewarding and bonding experience for the whole group...

Makes sense, but neurotypicals think they're so morally correct!!

 

[Darkkin]

Makes sense, but neurotypicals think they're so morally correct!!

Massive generalization on a huge contingent of people. Not a fair assumption to make. Being allistic or autistic does not determine one's moral compass or empathetic capacity. There are too many factors in play for unprovable blanket statements. It is unobjective.

Sociopathy, narcissism, and psychopathy have the same percentage of occurrence in autistics as it does in the allistic populations.

 

[Tictactoe]

Massive generalization on a huge contingent of people. Not a fair assumption to make. Being allistic or autistic does not determine one's moral compass or empathetic capacity. There are too many factors in play for unprovable blanket statements. It is unobjective.

When you read statistics like around only 20% of autistic adults are in any kind of employment, it makes you wonder.

 

[Slim Jim]

Empathy in normal humans is highly selective. It works well for "in group". But the bullied kid was already framed as outsider (autistic), so empathy won't work there.

This is why learning to mask is sadly important survival skill, you cannot let others frame you as an outsider. If you let them do that, you are screwed, because you become acceptable target for bullying... No empathy for you, you will actually get "reverse empathy", basically, bullying you will become rewarding and bonding experience for the whole group...

This is the insider/outsider dynamic. It seems all society is built on this.

 

[Darkkin]

When you read statistics like around only 20% of autistic adults are in any kind of employment, it makes you wonder.

No, it doesn't. One statistic has nothing to do with the other. There is no linear, provable causational evidence of autistic employment negatively impacted because of allistic empathy practices.

Causational evidence would be reprimands for meltdowns. Shutdowns due to workplace stress and autistic burnout.

Documented incidents of workplace harassement statistics. Documented diagnosed autistics within said demographic, etc. Autistic reporting workplace harassement. These are measurable metrics.

Empathy is not. It is unique to the individual and impacted by outside confluences. It can also ne manipulated by masking. A trait both autistics and allistics possess.

Numbers that actually impact autistic employment numbers. The fact that nearly 30% of autistics are nonverbal or can become nonverbal in stressful situations. Between 10 - 33% struggle with a measurable intellectual disability.

As ASD1s and/or Asperger's group most of us are at the lower support need end of the spectrum. Autistic employment statistics includes the entire spectrum not just ASD1. ASD 2 and ASD 3 play a huge part in that 80%. Why? Because a lot of ASD1 and/or Asperger's autistics have learned to mask well enough that they can pass for an NT. They are often later in life diagnosed autistics. Read the intro threads ages ranging 19 to people in their 60's.

 

[Fino]

I thinking showing empathy and being capable of empathy are important distinctions.

 

[AprilR]

People can empathize with you as long as you are not too different from them. Neurotypicals have less empathy for autistics, or none.
Abled bodied people have less empathy for disabled people or none. Most people pity others because they have no empathy for them ( can't imagine being in a disabled person's shoes) Pity is what happens when you lack empathy for the other person.

I usually can't really empathize with someone who have lost their Child, as i can't even imagine having a child in the first place.
I can easily empathize with disabled or mentally ill people however, and they seem drawn to me too. Similar life experiences make it easy to empathize

 

[StrayCat]

People can empathize with you as long as you are not too different from them.

Very true, finding similar people to empathize with is the hard part though

 

[Tictactoe]

People can empathize with you as long as you are not too different from them. Neurotypicals have less empathy for autistics, or none.
Abled bodied people have less empathy for disabled people or none. Most people pity others because they have no empathy for them ( can't imagine being in a disabled person's shoes) Pity is what happens when you lack empathy for the other person.

I usually can't really empathize with someone who have lost their Child, as i can't even imagine having a child in the first place.
I can easily empathize with disabled or mentally ill people however, and they seem drawn to me too. Similar life experiences make it easy to empathize

That's the explanation I was looking for.
Thank you, it explains alot!

 

[Calrid]

I think a few (by no means all) people are getting empathy and sympathy a little confused: empathy is the ability to have an understanding of someone's problems despite not having experienced them or anything necessarilly like them first hand. Someone who feels sympathy might say I know what you are going through. Some who has empathy would say I can only imagine how hard this must be for you. It's subtle distinction but an important one.

Simply put empathy is an intellectual insight into someones problem without sharing it. which is why us aspies struggle sometimes: we know how we feel, understanding how someone else feels needs a more nuanced understanding, and sometimes we ride rough shod over peoples feelings because of it.

as people have said there's talking the talk, knowing what empathy means, and then there's walking the walk doing, therein lies the rub.

 

[AprilR]

I am aware of the distinction between empathy and sympathy. What i was trying to say is that people in general have a hard time empathizing with someone different from them, this is why ableism, racism and other forms of discrimination against minorities exist. I think the op's question was more in line with that, like WHY people hurt and abuse others if they can understand and experience other's feelings like it's their own?

There's also the fact that being an empathetic person is often mixed up with being a kind and morally good person which is not always the case. Being a good person is a choice, and many empathetic people can't be bothered to make that choice.

 

[Darkkin]

The character of Will Graham in the TV adaptation of Hannibal takes an interesting look at empathy without the usual connotations of morality.