[vent] My father showed up to my home once again...unannounced...

[autism-and-autotune]

Yeah, this really isn't my week.

Yesterday I was settling down to supper at home as my fiance told me that I wasn't going to be happy with something. Well, here goes, I thought, thinking of house issues or the fallen trees in our yard or maybe their parents had changed plans for a vacation. But it wasn't either of those things.

"Maybe an hour or so before you got home, this white truck comes up our driveway and parks really weird. The windows were tinted and I couldn't see who it was, but not one came out for...five minutes or so? The engine was turned off." My fiance went up to our other room to get a better look, and lo and behold from the white truck emerges my father. My fiance noted that the truck was positioned as if to make a quick getaway as well. "It was really scary because of the tinted windows. Does your father even have a white truck?" We didn't know if my mother had been with him--but that's usually how it goes; I'd be lured out by him only for them both to ream me.

"All he did was knock once or twice, but I think he heard me shift around upstairs. He just...knocked and then left. Though I think he may have seen me in the window afterwards because he slammed on the breaks as I stood in the window, arms crossed as he left." I was afraid and bewildered. No one is allowed to our home unannounced or uninvited for any reason, I recall writing to him in April. I was cold and shaking, anticipating punishment as my fiance told me the story.

"But he doesn't even have a white truck!" I protested. at least, such had been true nearly three years ago. "Also, what says 'I totally am not being mysterious and I have nothing to hide!' more than tinted windows?" My fiance thinks he fled because he knew I wasn't home and absolutely did not want to confront them, because he'd be chewed up and spit out. Rightfully so.

The thing is, all week I've been having an odd feeling. Like there's a confrontation or something. Or thoughts that as I do the dishes, there might be someone standing on the deck, just out of sight. And if I turned too quickly but too slowly I'd miss whoever it is. And the night before yesterday, my fiance came to bed early because they just had a bad feeling, like they might be sick. Or on edge for no reason.

Another thing is that usually before an engagement, my father would usually tell me via text or email (which would go deleted) that he'd be headed up. And of course I'd been given no warning, otherwise I would've told my significant before heading home from work. Of course, no such thing. Another attempt to blindside me. "Well if he works in a school then he should have the weekend off! Why isn't he home?"

"But he left a note," my fiance said. "He folded it a trillion times and just stuck it in the door." All the note said was, Hey [redacted]. Please call me at [number redacted]. I really need to talk to you. Love dad. What the hell's going on now? Could be anything big; could be anything small. But the only concern is that I reach out and contact is established. It matters not the reason.

*sigh*. I don't care. Since I've learned of my autism and since I've grown into recognition of my CPTSD and neglect and abuse by my parents, I just don't care. But they'll never understand that I'm my own adult; safe and in love and independent. Guys, what the hell do I do? We're talking more and more about legally getting a retraining order or something. My fiance doesn't deserve to have a nice peaceful day interrupted and spent on edge. I'm shocked and angry and...just I just don't know what to do.

 

[Alexej]

Hey @autism-and-autotune
Your Dad turning up like that must have been hard.
However, he did respect your boundary and just post a note. That is at least something - but perhaps not much

 

[Hypnalis]

@autism-and-autotune

I wrote something for you several months ago that's relevant to this.

I think the timing is off for you to do anything directly yourself, but this cannot be ignored.

His physical presence and sneaking around may not be a real problem, but it definitely might be.
You should start by treating it as a low-probability high-negative-consequence issue ("long-tail risk") that must be assessed immediately.

If you like, ask your fiance to contact me via our old convo.
If so, they should not read any of it in advance.

 

[The Pandector]

Sorry to hear about this, @autism-and-autotune . Can’t relate personally, as my parents had no interest. Frankly, I can understand your parents’ anguish, because they are locked out of their child’s life.

That said, your first responsibility is to yourself and your fiancé. I appreciate that you speak of bringing in the authorities as a radical last resort, but kinda wish you could do just that. For myself, I would be determined to establish sustainable boundaries, which is what your dad seems determined to ignore. My own way would be to warn him that he gets no more warnings and you will seek a restraining order. Then, do it.

Gut suspicion, that white van was intended to sway you in some way, which may be some kind of peace offering. Nevertheless, he continues to blatantly disregard your wishes. A court order would demonstrate forcefully that you not only mean what you say, but that you have the authority to enforce your rights. The whole thing is so sad, but this behavior is downright wrong and you aren’t obliged to endure it. He has made of himself a boogeyman lurking outside your house, and that is a legal issue.

 

[1ForAll]

I doubt what the father has to say is about anything important. If it were, he would have said such on the note. The different vehicle and tinted windows and no text or email notice was likely because they hoped someone would open the door, that you would not think it was them knocking. The mother was likely watching through that tint with her eyes, as she has a need to know what is going on, and hopeful you would open the door, yet with desire to feel some self-control like she was not a part of this need to reel you in, if nobody had answered. Narcissistic people who want to show superiority or control over others do not like feeling rejected.

What I find sickening in all of this is your mother trying to get your father involved, to get access to you, and information about you as from things said in the past he seemed more like he is the just trying to please his wife type more than caring about contact with you. My wife's mother controls her ex that way, and tries to get him to find out information on us to satisfy her narcissistic ego and controlling needs. It does not work. We see through that, and we see him as enabling his ex wife to try to keep harassing us. He never showed care for his daughter. We do not reward such manipulative behaviors.

I think I mentioned this before, but my wife's mother from Canada called the church in the US in the past after she researched where her daughter worked/volunteered. We later learned the mother tried playing victim to the church secretary and pastor there, and accused us of wrongs which was self-serving fiction. The church sided with the mother, despite that unwanted intrusion and meddling, and her daughter's worsened health there, so my wife blasted that church back, for their lectures onto her, when they had many secret calls with her mother before we found out. Hypocrites.

The moral of the story for us was the more they did this, the more we shut them out and got others involved to protect us and our rights. Those who are narcissists will rarely if ever admit wrongs they did, regardless if you had thousands of facts and evidents supporting that. They will either manipulate the facts, be evasive of the wrongs they did, try to justify them or shift the blame and deny things, and hide their sinister or selfish intentions and sometimes have two personas, a public one and private one. They have a need to elevate themselves or to put down others and/or to be victims, and they have a need for constant attention or ego boost. Follow your gut what to do, whether to ignore, very short unemotional typed statement by your fiance or you saying if it happens again protective order, or get a free consultation with a lawyer if need be, or file some order on your own through another's help after research to start putting this on public record, and to get relief, etc.

I guess what I am curious about, if the parents live not far away, unless that is an inaccurate assumption, why have they not already seen you at the store or church working there, or have heard about that through others they know in the community? And why do they think you work at a school, and would be off on weekends? Did or do you also work there, or was that story to throw them off?

Regardless, if they knew you were severely upset at the last time they came after any prior text or message from them warning such, it seems clear they know no warning in advance will make you even more mad. Heck, they are not even supposed to come after any of those prior warning messages, as you never told them you wanted or were OK with that. Consider putting trespassing signs near your door and on your property too, saying any violators will be prosecuted too.

I am sorry they again disrespected your rights and feelings by showing up again. I wish there was an obvious solution. I just feel the worst thing often to do in such situations is to feed their need for information and emotion coming from you, to feed their craving need for attention and drama and to be in control.

 

[Hypnalis]

Those who are narcissists will rarely if ever admit wrongs they did

Props for handling the situation with your wife's mother!

A minor comment on the phrase I quoted:

Real narcissists don't know they've been behaving badly. An admission that they've done anything wrong literally feels like a lie to them.

IMO this is different from the kind of very selfish person who know, but don't care (thieves, vandals, etc).

 

[1ForAll]

Props for handling the situation with your wife's mother!

A minor comment on the phrase I quoted:

Real narcissists don't know they've been behaving badly. An admission that they've done anything wrong literally feels like a lie to them.

IMO this is different from the kind of very selfish person who know, but don't care (thieves, vandals, etc).

Perhaps because they are so used to lying most of the time or just have a distorted sense of reality. But, would it still not be selfish if the victim said you were harming me, and the perpetrator kept doing that thing, even if they thought they were doing nothing wrong? I mean, it implies then that abuser puts their own desires and feelings above that other.

 

[Hypnalis]

TBH don't see why we should care if narcissists are also selfish.

Personally., I act based only on people's actions and the effect of those actions on me. Their motivation and methods are only relevant for choosing countermeasures. (if any).

So I have ways to distinguish between those two because the countermeasures are different.
* Narcs are weakened by their lack of self-awareness, but they take longer to deal with for the same reason.
* You can "negotiate" with selfish people because of the self-awareness.

 

[Outdated]

Real narcissists don't know they've been behaving badly. An admission that they've done anything wrong literally feels like a lie to them.

I've heard the word bandied around all my life as an insult but it was only in the last 12 months that I met a genuine narcissist for the first time.

This person really does have a lot of problems in life but they are not behaving strangely deliberately, any memories of past events are subjected to a type of psychosis and they genuinely believe their versions of events. Showing them their own writings from during those events caused them confusion and they'd respond with denial and then accusations of me falsifying what they had said.

This person truly believed themselves, they weren't trying to be mean or nasty, they honestly believed they were being attacked and victimised. I really feel sorry for them, but I'm not mentally equipped to deal with that situation.

 

[paloftoon]

Everything in this thread seems to be the fiancee's parents and the husband. What about the wife? Is the wife going to support you and will she file a restraining order with you? She might be okay with the contact because it's family and maybe it doesn't bother her.. Are you and her meant to be if she is not in a position to stand by your side enough?

Consider couples therapy maybe?

 

[autism-and-autotune]

Hey @autism-and-autotune
Your Dad turning up like that must have been hard.
However, he did respect your boundary and just post a note. That is at least something - but perhaps not much

Your optimism is understandable. However...it was explicitly stated by me months ago that no one for any reason was allowed onto the property. It's still not good, as he was observed.

 

[autism-and-autotune]

@autism-and-autotune

I wrote something for you several months ago that's relevant to this.

I think the timing is off for you to do anything directly yourself, but this cannot be ignored.

His physical presence and sneaking around may not be a real problem, but it definitely might be.
You should start by treating it as a low-probability high-negative-consequence issue ("long-tail risk") that must be assessed immediately.

If you like, ask your fiance to contact me via our old convo.
If so, they should not read any of it in advance.

Oh, of course it can't be ignored. I wonder if there are state resources to help folks in my position concerning possible legal things like this? There must be disabled folks trying to navigate no-contact and have it be solid with some people.

 

[autism-and-autotune]

Sorry to hear about this, @autism-and-autotune . Can’t relate personally, as my parents had no interest. Frankly, I can understand your parents’ anguish, because they are locked out of their child’s life.

That said, your first responsibility is to yourself and your fiancé. I appreciate that you speak of bringing in the authorities as a radical last resort, but kinda wish you could do just that. For myself, I would be determined to establish sustainable boundaries, which is what your dad seems determined to ignore. My own way would be to warn him that he gets no more warnings and you will seek a restraining order. Then, do it.

Gut suspicion, that white van was intended to sway you in some way, which may be some kind of peace offering. Nevertheless, he continues to blatantly disregard your wishes. A court order would demonstrate forcefully that you not only mean what you say, but that you have the authority to enforce your rights. The whole thing is so sad, but this behavior is downright wrong and you aren’t obliged to endure it. He has made of himself a boogeyman lurking outside your house, and that is a legal issue.

Thanks for the sympathy. I can understand a bit of the anguish too, but...come on. It's just so frustrating because their needs outweigh my boundaries, which certainly isn't fair.

Hey, I kinda wish I could do that too. I'd discussed the topic someplace on this forum months ago but was wisely counseled the notion that such a legal thing may not pass...but there's evidence now. Protecting myself and my fiance is of utmost importance. I don't like the psychological affects of such a breach for either of us. It's not good to not feel safe in one's home. But I like your warning style.

Maybe an attempt--it's impossible to know the intent. But yes...court-issues orders of cease-and-desist would be a good thing to obtain. It's sad, yes, when I think of the good things or the good memories--but that's a dysfunctional household for you. The good guts you as much as the bad did. But it only matters if people acknowledge and change their behaviour, which hasn't happened.

 

[Rodafina]

Your optimism is understandable. However...it was explicitly stated by me months ago that no one for any reason was allowed onto the property. It's still not good, as he was observed.

Here you get to test yourself in how you will handle boundary infractions. You have set a boundary (a stronger one than ever before), and now you are tasked to maintain it. It will be difficult, but you can do it. You may need to call in some resources and try different things until your autonomy and privacy are respected.

 

[autism-and-autotune]

I doubt what the father has to say is about anything important. If it were, he would have said such on the note. The different vehicle and tinted windows and no text or email notice was likely because they hoped someone would open the door, that you would not think it was them knocking. The mother was likely watching through that tint with her eyes, as she has a need to know what is going on, and hopeful you would open the door, yet with desire to feel some self-control like she was not a part of this need to reel you in, if nobody had answered. Narcissistic people who want to show superiority or control over others do not like feeling rejected.

What I find sickening in all of this is your mother trying to get your father involved, to get access to you, and information about you as from things said in the past he seemed more like he is the just trying to please his wife type more than caring about contact with you. My wife's mother controls her ex that way, and tries to get him to find out information on us to satisfy her narcissistic ego and controlling needs. It does not work. We see through that, and we see him as enabling his ex wife to try to keep harassing us. He never showed care for his daughter. We do not reward such manipulative behaviors.

I think I mentioned this before, but my wife's mother from Canada called the church in the US in the past after she researched where her daughter worked/volunteered. We later learned the mother tried playing victim to the church secretary and pastor there, and accused us of wrongs which was self-serving fiction. The church sided with the mother, despite that unwanted intrusion and meddling, and her daughter's worsened health there, so my wife blasted that church back, for their lectures onto her, when they had many secret calls with her mother before we found out. Hypocrites.

The moral of the story for us was the more they did this, the more we shut them out and got others involved to protect us and our rights. Those who are narcissists will rarely if ever admit wrongs they did, regardless if you had thousands of facts and evidents supporting that. They will either manipulate the facts, be evasive of the wrongs they did, try to justify them or shift the blame and deny things, and hide their sinister or selfish intentions and sometimes have two personas, a public one and private one. They have a need to elevate themselves or to put down others and/or to be victims, and they have a need for constant attention or ego boost. Follow your gut what to do, whether to ignore, very short unemotional typed statement by your fiance or you saying if it happens again protective order, or get a free consultation with a lawyer if need be, or file some order on your own through another's help after research to start putting this on public record, and to get relief, etc.

I guess what I am curious about, if the parents live not far away, unless that is an inaccurate assumption, why have they not already seen you at the store or church working there, or have heard about that through others they know in the community? And why do they think you work at a school, and would be off on weekends? Did or do you also work there, or was that story to throw them off?

Regardless, if they knew you were severely upset at the last time they came after any prior text or message from them warning such, it seems clear they know no warning in advance will make you even more mad. Heck, they are not even supposed to come after any of those prior warning messages, as you never told them you wanted or were OK with that. Consider putting trespassing signs near your door and on your property too, saying any violators will be prosecuted too.

I am sorry they again disrespected your rights and feelings by showing up again. I wish there was an obvious solution. I just feel the worst thing often to do in such situations is to feed their need for information and emotion coming from you, to feed their craving need for attention and drama and to be in control.

It's the vagueness of the note that gets me too. But if he had anything important to say, would it be up to me to decide to reach back out? Would I be the villain for not doing so, in 'coldness' perhaps? While there wasn't warning at the time, my phone didn't give me the voicemail notifications til yesterday morning. He'd been alone; "I'm not angry at you but I want to talk to you about the house." As vague as one can get. I believe that my mother has officially washed her hands of me; perhaps he is her errand-boy, and perhaps not. Why should I care about the place where I grew up--where I was abused, hurt, afraid, and unhappy there?

I'm sorry to hear what you and your wife have been through at the hands of your mother-in-law. Dealing with narcissists is heavy work--I appreciate your advice regarding lawyers and such. Good on you for just putting your foot down and dealing with them properly!

Oh no, my parents live very far away--nearly two hours. Last they knew--back in February when they so rudely intruded--was that I was still a substitute teacher. They never learnt specifically which church I work at, and they have no clue I work in retail. I do admittedly have nightmares of them showing up at the store, seeing my mutism pin and just...freaking out. They scare me in more ways than one.

I'd love to get some 'no trespassing' signs! Are they available at hardware stores? I don't really think they care what I think and feel since I've moved out. They don't bother to say "Hey sorry I know it's breaking a boundary, but can you get in touch about xyz?" Nope! Just... I, I, I. Any mail from them is shredded and tossed.

Thank you for your sympathy and for your understanding. To reply would indeed be to give them control. I can see it now: "Oh, you'll get back to your father but not your mother? why do you love him more than me? Why are you only getting back now and not the other times?" Gosh. *sighs*

 

[autism-and-autotune]

Here you get to test yourself in how you will handle boundary infractions. You have set a boundary (a stronger one than ever before), and now you are tasked to maintain it. It will be difficult, but you can do it. You may need to call in some resources and try different things until your autonomy and privacy are respected.

I'd like some resources, yes...I wish this was easier. I wish I could just tell them all the things they did were wrong and just have them get it and leave us alone.

 

[Hypnalis]

Oh, of course it can't be ignored. I wonder if there are state resources to help folks in my position concerning possible legal things like this? There must be disabled folks trying to navigate no-contact and have it be solid with some people.

I'm not from the US - perhaps someone else knows the requirements for legal redress (e.g. a restraining order.
I've read in Reddit-based material that it's necessary for there to be tangible evidence of potential harm, which AFAIK you don't have yet.

I think it could be handled directly without too much trouble. But you'd need a suitable intermediary.
At this point I think it would be a mistake for you to engage directly.

But you have some leverage: they want something from you (access), and you don't want anything from them.
It's probably enough to work with.

If your fiance is prepared to take the role of intermediary, I suggest you put them in touch with me here (via our existing convo would be fine) for a discussion.

 

[autism-and-autotune]

Props for handling the situation with your wife's mother!

A minor comment on the phrase I quoted:

Real narcissists don't know they've been behaving badly. An admission that they've done anything wrong literally feels like a lie to them.

IMO this is different from the kind of very selfish person who know, but don't care (thieves, vandals, etc).

Well can't narcisissts also program others to not feel remorse? Or believe that the wrong thing they are doing is right?I guess they call this enabling, but...isn't that all psychological?

 

[autism-and-autotune]

Perhaps because they are so used to lying most of the time or just have a distorted sense of reality. But, would it still not be selfish if the victim said you were harming me, and the perpetrator kept doing that thing, even if they thought they were doing nothing wrong? I mean, it implies then that abuser puts their own desires and feelings above that other.

This is a very good thought to have...

 

[autism-and-autotune]

TBH don't see why we should care if narcissists are also selfish.

Personally., I act based only on people's actions and the effect of those actions on me. Their motivation and methods are only relevant for choosing countermeasures. (if any).

So I have ways to distinguish between those two because the countermeasures are different.
* Narcs are weakened by their lack of self-awareness, but they take longer to deal with for the same reason.
* You can "negotiate" with selfish people because of the self-awareness.

Hmm...I will contemplate this for a while.