The culture of lying

[Jonn]

I think an example would help. In a social situation, what would you consider a lie

One type of "lies of omission" involves the intent to deceive.

E.G. Not pointing out that a person's wallet has fallen out of their pocket, so as to steal.

Another type of "lies of omission" involves the intent to protect.

E.G. Not pointing out that your spouse's/partner's "bum does look big in that dress", so as to not hurt their feelings.

 

[Masked Man]

E.G. Not pointing out that your spouse's/partner's "bum does look big in that dress", so as to not hurt their feelings.

I sincerely hope that a partner would never actually do this, and instead say something like "I think the other dress is more flattering on you."

Unless you know your partner very VERY well, and know that they are asking your honest opinion and, further, are ready to hear it, you should probably never tell your partner they look big/fat unless you want to be sleeping in the dog house.

I think this is where social savviness comes in handy.

 

[Jonn]

I think this is where social savviness comes in handy.

The realisation that diplomacy is very important, came relatively late in my life.
"Better late than never", right?

 

[Ken]

I think it is bad to harm others. Sometimes "telling the truth" can be very harmful to someone. Telling them that they are ugly may be telling the truth (in your mind) but is very hurtful / harmful to them.

A few months ago (November 2024) I wrote this and sent it to a local news paper "letters to the editor".
I think it may be along the lines of this thread. My apologies if not:

I absolutely believe in Freedom of Speech.
Everyone should be able to freely express themselves.
Freedom of speech is very beneficial and constructive.

However, I do not believe in Freedom of Lies.
Lies are destructive, deceptive and are to hurt.
Everything “Human” is dependent on words.
Everything from bedtime stories to engines to medical miracles are all devised and brought into being by information; by words.
Words are the construct of our world - all that we know. It is information. It is communication. It is our lives.
Every building, every man made structure, every computer, everything is created by information.
Only true information is constructive. False information – lies - are destructive.
Differences in opinion or viewpoints are not lying. Misinformation are lies.
You would not want to cross a bridge or fly in an aircraft engineered or constructed with misinformation.
Being consciously loose with facts is lying.
Being mistaken is not a lie, its an error.
The act of intended concealment, distortion and misinterpretation is a lie.
Hearing a rumor then passing it along to others makes you an agent of fraud. A liar.
Lies creates and feeds hatred, bigotry and greed.
Spreading lies creates and feeds mob mentalities. Mobs pursue the subject of the lies to inflict harm. Examples include racism, immigrants, people with disabilities, people who are “different”, political parties, us vs them mentality.
Bigotry results in immigrant bans, mass deportations, genocide, holocausts, etc.
Lies breed conflict, murder, mass murder and war. War is state sanctioned mass murder. All created out of false accusations, willful ignorance, hatred and bigotry fueled by selfish greed.

I do not believe in Freedom of Harm.

 

[Masked Man]

Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences.

If you call someone ugly don't be surprised when they punch you in the throat.

 

[Ken]

Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences.

If you call someone ugly don't be surprised when they punch you in the throat.

That is not my point. Regardless of consequences or not, I do not believe in harming others. Calling someone ugly harms them.

 

[Masked Man]

That is not my point. Regardless of consequences or not, I do not believe in harming others. Calling someone ugly harms them.

Sorry, I know, I meant that I was agreeing with you. I should have made that clearer, my apologies.

 

[Jonn]

E.G. Not pointing out that a person's wallet has fallen out of their pocket, so as to steal.

Bad example.

If I approach a trader and ask for a price on a product, but he fails to mention that if I wait for a day, it will be discounted, this would be a lie through omission, would it not?

 

[Misty Avich]

I prefer to be honest when it comes to other people's money, because I put myself in their shoes and know how stressful or upsetting it can be to lose money, so to make sure they get what they lost back gives me a feeling of relief and happiness that I made another person happy.

 

[Hypnalis]

@Ken

I agree with most of the content of your long post (#24) ....

but ...
(1) There are "corner cases" (especially with Freedom of Harm)
(2) The world is full of deliberate and manipulative lies (**), and people making mistakes (or even doing harm) due to other people's lies. It's not possible to avoid other people's falsehoods just by being honest and conforming to moral code.

(**)
There are people who believe we live in an unusually dishonest era, and I'm inclined to agree with them. There's certainly a lot of ideologically motivated false information circulating.

It's hard to quantify though - perhaps human propensity for dishonesty is a universal constant, and social media has just made it more obvious.

 

[Jonn]

It's not possible to avoid other people's falsehoods just by being honest and conforming to moral code.

Agreed.
Ppl would be extremely naive if they thought that way.
I was, at one time.

 

[Misty Avich]

Sometimes I wonder what the world would be like if literally nobody ever thought to lie before and everyone just spoke the truth since the dawn of man.

 

[Jonn]

Sometimes I wonder what the world would be like if literally nobody ever thought to lie before and everyone just spoke the truth since the dawn of man.

I read somewhere that there is a particularly altruistic group of primates that has largely survived the brutality of the evolutionary task master.

Spoiler

No, I am not talking about the autistic community.

However:
Apparently, based on the results of the evolutionary process to date, deception and lies have a survival advantage, whereas, trusting ppl often go the way of the dodo, imo.

 

[Jonn]

Is there a connection between altruism and honesty?

AI Overview
Learn more

Yes, studies suggest a connection between altruism and honesty, with researchers finding that individuals demonstrating "truth effectiveness" tend to exhibit higher levels of overall altruism.


Here's a more detailed look at the connection:

• "Truth Effectiveness" and Altruism:
  Studies have shown a statistically significant association between an individual's perceived "truth effectiveness" (meaning how well they perceive themselves as honest and truthful) and their overall level of altruism.

Google Search

 

[Jonn]

Is there a connection between dishonesty and anti personality traits?

AI Overview
Learn more

Yes, there's a strong connection between dishonesty and traits often associated with antisocial personality disorder (ASPD), which includes repeatedly lying, deception, and manipulating others for personal gain.


Here's a more detailed explanation:

• Defining Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD):
  ASPD is characterized by a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others, starting by age 15.
  

• Core Traits Associated with ASPD:
  These individuals frequently exhibit failure to conform to social norms and laws, deceitfulness, impulsivity, and a lack of remorse.
  
  
• Deceitfulness and Lying:
  Deceitfulness, which encompasses repeated lying, the use of aliases, or conning others for personal gain or pleasure, is a prominent trait in ASPD.
  
  
• Examples of Lying Behaviors:
  People with ASPD might lie to gain sympathy, social status, or to preserve a false sense of self or to manipulate others for personal gain.
  

 

[Misty Avich]

I'm a liar now, unless I use all words 100% literally.

 

[Jonn]

I'm a liar now, unless I use all words 100% literally.

That's a lie.

 

[Jonn]

Pathological liars:

AI Overview
Learn more

A pathological liar is someone who compulsively lies without a clear reason. They may lie to deceive others, even if it's harmful to themselves or others.


Signs of pathological lying:

• Lying frequently, even when it causes problems
• Telling elaborate, detailed lies that are easy to verify
• Lying without a clear motive
• Lying that doesn't benefit them
• Lying that might hurt them when the truth comes out
• • Lying that seems to be geared at gaining admiration, sympathy, or acceptance by others
  • Becoming defensive or angry if confronted
  • Dodging questions or providing vague answers
  • Retelling a story that happened to you and passing it off as their own

Google Search

 

[Jonn]

Pathological Liar vs Compulsive Liar: What is the Difference?​

What are the three types of liar?​

There are three main types of liars, which include:

• Natural liars: This is the most common type of liar. Natural liars are people who can lie easily with great skill and success. They don't believe their own lies, they're just good at lying.
• Pathological liars: Pathological lying is often a warning sign of antisocial personality disorder (commonly known as a psychopath). A pathological liar is usually considered manipulative, selfish, and cunning.
• Compulsive liars: Compulsive liars bend the truth about everything, large or small. For a compulsive liar, telling the truth is very awkward and uncomfortable, while lying feels right.

Pathological Liar vs Compulsive Liar: What is the Difference

 

[Jonn]

What is the difference between a compulsive liar and a pathological liar?​

The terms compulsive liar and pathological liar are used interchangeably, and some characteristics may overlap between the two conditions. There are no clearcut established definitions in academic literature that distinguish the two behaviors. However, below are some differences believed to exist between compulsive and pathological liars.