A relation between ASD and schizotypal or schizoid personality disorder?

[King_Oni]

So it got me thinking about this relation.

In general both personality disorders form at some point and aren't disorders one is born with (compared to autism). With that, and I adressed it a few times in the past (either on threads or on my blog)... if there's no timely intervention, I'm quite sure such a disorder can form more easily. There's a big overlap between AS (or so it seems) and schizoid disorders.

However; it isn't said that it's the case for everyone on the spectrum. But what I do believe is that IF said disorder forms, it's a even bigger pattern to eventually change and get some kind of treatment for.

Looking at myself (which clearly is the best frame of reference for me); I do lack social skills, somewhat. Can't say if that's more or less than the majority here. But... and here's where one can say "it's schizotypal/schizoid"... I don't even care for being social, this forum is pretty much all "social interaction" I get, and even that results in me not being that active, while I actually could since I spend a lot of time on my computer. But anyway, I don't care to have those social skills. That lack of "active disinterest" in being social is attributed to those personality disorders. And with that, it's also a way how Asperger's (or autism in general) might be difficult to deal with later in life for some people. It's not that I can't deal with people. It's not the issue if I want to, I have to. And not neccesarily just for a job. Even groceries, going somewhere to get something done. That's where anxiety kicks in, which fuels a disinterest in dealing with people, rinse, repeat, ad nauseum (quite literally).

Comorbid schizotypal as well as Asperger's as a diagnosis doesn't occur in general, because Asperger's cancels out one of the mandatory criteria for Schizotypal/schizoid personality disorder, in that it can't be because of a pervasive disorder.

But I'm quite sure that one can actually be both not social and not have that craving to be social as seperate causes, because social behaviour on the schizoid disorder spectrum isn't really a anxiety as it would like it is with Asperger's/autism from what I understand.

But it's just a thought I had last week. Thoughts? Anyone got (mis)diagnosed with a schizotypal/schizoid disorder before?

sources;
Schizotypal personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Schizoid personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[beneficii]

I've been diagnosed with both by the same doctor. At 13, I was diagnosed with Asperger's. When I was hospitalized at age 14, I was diagnosed by the same doctor as having an additional diagnosis of schizotypal.

Nevertheless, Asperger's seems to have been the primary issue, rather than schizotypal, for me, as the schizotypal didn't really become chronic.

 

[risootser]

You are not born with the personality disorder but you are born with the personality. So you are born with the schizoid personality but not with the schizoid personality disorder.

Similarly if we assume genetics then you are born with an autistic predisposition but not with an autistic disorder and you're waiting if you crossover the diagnostic threshold. These things are not in this respect dissimilar. However one can get cured from a personality disorder and morph it into a personality but not from the autism disorder . That is if we follow the definitions which might be wrong.

My recommendation is to read Theodore Million's book:
Personality Disorders in Modern Life

http://www.turkpsikiyatri.org/arsiv/personality.disorders.millon.pdf


Here is a Schizoid woman interviewed by the expert himself

Here is a person with asperger's (probably the olden days vanilla variety )

 

[unperson]

Have known a textbook case schizoid socially, over a long time The only overlap with ASD that I know of was needing space and privacy, so we get along with them, but there's no lack of social skills in schizoid, just a lack of desire to socialise. Also quite pronounced anhedonia, which makes their lives uh unpleasant.

 

[Aspychata]

I read that anhedonia can be core to depression.

 

[unperson]

Yeah makes sense, it's a truly horrible thing, the inability to take pleasure in anything.

 

[Aspychata]

So it got me thinking about this relation.

In general both personality disorders form at some point and aren't disorders one is born with (compared to autism). With that, and I adressed it a few times in the past (either on threads or on my blog)... if there's no timely intervention, I'm quite sure such a disorder can form more easily. There's a big overlap between AS (or so it seems) and schizoid disorders.

However; it isn't said that it's the case for everyone on the spectrum. But what I do believe is that IF said disorder forms, it's a even bigger pattern to eventually change and get some kind of treatment for.

Looking at myself (which clearly is the best frame of reference for me); I do lack social skills, somewhat. Can't say if that's more or less than the majority here. But... and here's where one can say "it's schizotypal/schizoid"... I don't even care for being social, this forum is pretty much all "social interaction" I get, and even that results in me not being that active, while I actually could since I spend a lot of time on my computer. But anyway, I don't care to have those social skills. That lack of "active disinterest" in being social is attributed to those personality disorders. And with that, it's also a way how Asperger's (or autism in general) might be difficult to deal with later in life for some people. It's not that I can't deal with people. It's not the issue if I want to, I have to. And not neccesarily just for a job. Even groceries, going somewhere to get something done. That's where anxiety kicks in, which fuels a disinterest in dealing with people, rinse, repeat, ad nauseum (quite literally).

Comorbid schizotypal as well as Asperger's as a diagnosis doesn't occur in general, because Asperger's cancels out one of the mandatory criteria for Schizotypal/schizoid personality disorder, in that it can't be because of a pervasive disorder.

But I'm quite sure that one can actually be both not social and not have that craving to be social as seperate causes, because social behaviour on the schizoid disorder spectrum isn't really a anxiety as it would like it is with Asperger's/autism from what I understand.

But it's just a thought I had last week. Thoughts? Anyone got (mis)diagnosed with a schizotypal/schizoid disorder before?

sources;
Schizotypal personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Schizoid personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think it's sad when men try to pigeon-hole woman who don't want to date or only want to go out with just one guy. So they try to dx them.

 

[risootser]

Yeah makes sense, it's a truly horrible thing, the inability to take pleasure in anything.

I can get into that mindset very often but I also have an ability to get over it. I see myself as bit of a mystic so it goes by with revelations/insights which on the other hand can give me a huge manic euphoria. I like to laugh in a way.

 

[Aspychata]

I can get into that mindset very often but I also have an ability to get over it. I see myself as bit of a mystic so it goes by with revelations/insights which on the other hand can give me a huge manic euphoria. I like to laugh in a way.

So are you capable of friendships that have any pleasure?

 

[unperson]

Comes in handy for asceticism, self control stuff.

 

[risootser]

So are you capable of friendships that have any pleasure?

I can enjoy company but intimacy is extremely hard. I drift away when it comes to personal matters but I can discuss mental matters a lot. My level of depth can be very exhaustive to many and my toughts are very top to bottom and not bottom up. I can be a lively clown and a joker as well.

When it comes to food I do not have a huge palette of impressions. I eat in a way that does not bring displeasure. I have preferences but chemicals in my body control it so it is more like an automatic thing but it also seems bit off healthwise like lots of sugar.

 

[Matthias]

You are not born with the personality disorder but you are born with the personality.

Personality is a lifestyle choice that people choose based on their life experiences. No one is born with a personality. If someone doesn't like their personality, they can change it. A person's choice of personality is disordered when she chooses a personality that is maladaptive or harmful.

Similarly if we assume genetics then you are born with an autistic predisposition but not with an autistic disorder and you're waiting if you crossover the diagnostic threshold. These things are not in this respect dissimilar. However one can get cured from a personality disorder and morph it into a personality but not from the autism disorder . That is if we follow the definitions which might be wrong.

Autism is a choice. Autistic people can choose to stop being autistic.

Genes can cause cognitive dysfunction which increase the risk of forming cognitive distortions and maladaptive thinking and behavioral adaptations. All of these can be overcome if a person is willing to learn how to think rationally and start dealing with their problems instead of avoiding them.

 

[risootser]

Personality is a lifestyle choice that people choose based on their life experiences. No one is born with a personality. If someone doesn't like their personality, they can change it.

Not true. Big 5 traits are very hard to change. Besides what you are referring sounds like a persona, the mask in front of your real self you put on in public. You should read about persona vs personality. Not everyone has a persona and those are usually individualists and they are relatively rare but also quite visible because they are "real". I think I might lack persona based on how others see me.

 

[Matthias]

Not true.

Experts used to think personality was fixed but more recent research shows that people can change their personality. A personality disorder is the same as a personality. The disorder label just means the psychologists in charge of the DSM don't approve of their personality. That means if someone can change their schizoid personality they can change any personality.

Big 5 traits are very hard to change.

Everyone started forming beliefs about themselves and the world when they were a baby and people interpret everything later in life through a filter based on their earlier experiences and the beliefs they formed as a result of those experiences which means those early beliefs are continually reinforced throughout a person's life. For example, suppose someone felt it was safer and better for him to keep quiet early in life. That introversion then becomes a habit and that person will remember when talking too much causes them problems thus reinforcing their belief they're better off being introverted.

Most people will never even consider changing their lifelong beliefs that were formed very early in their life. For those who are challenged, their pride/ego often won't allow them to consider they may have made a mistake or perceived the world inaccurately their entire life or they may be too scared and afraid to change.

Those who become aware of what I wrote above who have the humility and courage to reevaluate their core beliefs formed by how they saw things during the first few years of their life can change their personality for the better.

 

[risootser]

Experts used to think personality was fixed but more recent research shows that people can change their personality. A personality disorder is the same as a personality. The disorder label just means the psychologists in charge of the DSM don't approve of their personality. That means if someone can change their schizoid personality they can change any personality.

Personality is dynamic but adjustablity is limited therefore you can cure your personality disorder but you are still left with the same personality now without a disorder. You can not go from schizoid to histrionic even if you can check the boxes in the end symptomwise because that is just acting.

 

[Matthias]

Personality is dynamic but adjustablity is limited therefore you can cure your personality disorder but you are still left with the same personality now without a disorder. You can not go from schizoid to histrionic even if you can check the boxes in the end symptomwise because that is just acting.

Adjustability is only limited by a person's willingness to change beliefs they've held their entire life. Since everyone sees the world thought a filter based on their earlier beliefs, most people are convinced those beliefs are true which means their personality won't change much.

My personality changed greatly because I realized I chose to be autistic due to beliefs and thinking patterns formed when I was a baby that I now know were incorrect.

 

[risootser]

My personality changed greatly because I realized I chose to be autistic due to beliefs and thinking patterns formed when I was a baby that I now know were incorrect.

OK then become believable histrionic even when others can caught you without a mask.
Simply taking an identity belief from theoretical basis (this actually sounds autistic confusion but might be a sign of higher than average brain plasticity, lol) and changing yourself for the better softened your edges. This is simply not a common phenomena just look at professions, serial criminals etc. You can a) change your environment b) self-develop yourself c) get a head trauma d) find a medical fix. Head trauma can cause drastic and unpredictable changes. Medical stuff might work. Self-development is never a bad idea but it needs external feedback and wiggle room is limited. Change of environment could be an excellent change and you might suddenly become functional.

 

[Matthias]

OK then become believable histrionic even when others can caught you without a mask.

Simply taking an identity belief from theoretical basis (this actually sounds autistic confusion but might be a sign of higher than average brain plasticity, lol) and changing yourself for the better softened your edges. This is simply not a common phenomena just look at professions, serial criminals etc. You can a) change your environment b) self-develop yourself c) get a head trauma d) find a medical fix. Head trauma can cause drastic and unpredictable changes. Medical stuff might work. Self-development is never a bad idea but it needs external feedback and wiggle room is limited. Change of environment could be an excellent change and you might suddenly become functional.

Changing personality requires changing one's core beliefs which often doesn't happen unless some life altering event occurs (such as a violent assault, a religious conversion, or a failed suicide attempt) that causes a person to question his deeply held lifelong beliefs. When someone recommended CBT, I angrily rejected it and didn't look into it until a year later when something big happened (I won't say what it was) that caused me to question my core beliefs.

I can't become histrionic right now because my beliefs aren't consistent with that personality. Something would have to happen to change my beliefs. I think you'll mostly find personality changes limited to a few people with major life altering experiences but the fact that their personality changed shows it's possible for others to change their personality.

 

[risootser]

Changing personality requires changing one's core beliefs which often doesn't happen unless some life altering event occurs (such as a violent assault, a religious conversion, or a failed suicide attempt) that causes a person to question his deeply held lifelong beliefs. When someone recommended CBT, I angrily rejected it and didn't look into it until a year later when something big happened (I won't say what it was) that caused me to question my core beliefs
.

I can't agree with you. To me personality is hardwired into your own neuronal makeup. Only attitudes can change, not information processing. Which to me seems to point towards trait neuroticism in B5. This actually has some evidence because neurotic character is very much moldable while other 4 are not. I have experienced changes in it as well. Huge swings. HEXACO might be a better model. One can certainly learn to control own emotions or negative emotionality (neurotic traits). Very low in extroversion will never be natural life of the party.

 

[Matthias]

I can't agree with you. To me personality is hardwired into your own neuronal makeup. Only attitudes can change, not information processing. Which to me seems to point towards trait neuroticism in B5. This actually has some evidence because neurotic character is very much moldable while other 4 are not. I have experienced changes in it as well. Huge swings. HEXACO might be a better model. One can certainly learn to control own emotions or negative emotionality (neurotic traits). Very low in extroversion will never be natural life of the party.

I used to be extremely introverted when I was on the lower end of the autism spectrum to the point where I didn't have any interest in other people or want to talk to anyone. Now I'm an extrovert who prefers to be around people all the time. I'm also much more open now that autistic anxiety isn't holding me back.

I guess you could say autism prevented me from becoming my true self and hid my real personality until I was able to recover from it