An Unspoken Social Rule

[Thursday]

It's likely because of the rejection part of the equation. They use feelers because they place a high value on being liked. If the person they sent the feelers to does not respond favorably, they would also be able to spare themselves from feeling rejected. Whereas asking directly may lead to a solid yes or no answer = definite rejection.

The sad part is, not all people are able to satisfy themselves with a non-yes answer anyway and still feel annoyed with the person who "rejected" their feelers.

I always go into detail whenever someone asks me a simple question. Even today, a coworker asked me if there were any phone calls while she was away - I didn't just say "no", I said "not that I know of, I was in the restroom during the past several minutes", and then I remembered how another coworker was in the office while I was out, and all he said was "no" - so I ended up saying "oh yes that's right, <coworker> was here during those few minutes so I think I'll go with 'no' as well". Retrospectively, I could have just said "not that I know of". It's like a natural response from me, always adding unnecessary detail and it's hard to remember not to!

Yeah used to do that too, especially when I'm thinking about something else, or I'm nervous around the person. I lessened it a lot through years of practice...feels like I have to cover all bases or something so my answer would be of more use.

 

[WereBear]

The sad part is, not all people are able to satisfy themselves with a non-yes answer anyway and still feel annoyed with the person who "rejected" their feelers.

Yes, they put the responsibility for their feelings onto other people.

 

[Larisa]

This is a classic case of Ask Culture meets Guess Culture.

What a nightmare
I would have done insane if I were born in Guess Culture
Are they so terrified of hearing 'no' word? Have they no personal space or belongings they would wanted to protect from invasions (thus having to say 'no' to others)?

 

[Ambi]

One of the most bewildering realizations I’ve had is most people don’t talk to learn things unless its related to work or directly towards their own hobbies, all the words and questions are bonding questions if done socially. They are “lets make friends” questions.

Thanks for posting this! It has taken me a long time to realize what people are really asking is different from what is coming out of their mouths - but I still couldn't figure out a pattern to help me decipher what is really wanted. This is an interesting idea though - that most people don't want data unless it's related to work or their own hobbies. That helps. I don't know how bullet-proof that idea is, but I think it's definitely a useful idea. I think it depends also on their relationship to you - for example, a boss, or other authoritarian type person, is still asking a social question if they ask what you are doing, but it isn't so they can join you - it's probably just a polite way to interrupt you and get you to focus on them or something else they will direct you towards at that time. Of course, if it's at work, it could just be data for work, but even then, I think they expect social niceties to be exchanged that affirms their rank in the tribe and relationship to you, rather than just offering up the data (the answer to the question).

As for me, I am all about the data! When I ask people questions, I want the data - that's what excites me. If I want to join them, I would ask - maybe that makes me seem pushy? I don't know. I'm not sure how socially graceful I can be in my requests.

This all seems hard to remember, but I hope to remember. Thinking of other people as neurotypicals, almost like another alien species, seems to actually help me to remember that they have different needs and expectations. This whole post reminds me of a strange experience I had with an ex-boyfriend. Once I visited his apartment, and he was doing some kind of home project. When I came in, we exchanged greetings, and then he asked if I was hot in there - or if it was warm in there, I can't remember now. I wasn't feeling warm or that it was warm, so I simply said no. He then stopped what he was doing and put up the A/C - and he felt annoyed that I hadn't offered to turn it up myself. I just hadn't realized he was hinting that I should go put up the A/C - I would have expected him to just ask me directly. So confusing. But to him, it was just rude.

 

[Ylva]

My mother subverts this. She asks me if she can watch tv; she literally asks if she's allowed. It's incredibly annoying to me even now, when I realize she usually means "do you want to watch tv with me?".

 

[Ambi]

My mother subverts this. She asks me if she can watch tv; she literally asks if she's allowed. It's incredibly annoying to me even now, when I realize she usually means "do you want to watch tv with me?".

I get irritated by stuff like that, too! :-D

 

[Hopeless_Aspie_Guy]

If a neurotypical asks you, “What game are you playing?” they’re not asking you to describe the game.

They’re asking you if they can play too.

If a neurotypical asks you, “What are you watching?” they’re not asking you to explain the plot of the movie/tv show to them.

They’re asking if they can watch it with you.

.

When neurotypicals ask you “What are you doing?”

What you think they’re asking: “Please explain to me what you are doing.”
What they’re actually asking: “Can I join you?”
Now here’s the really messed up part. If you start explaining to them what you’re doing? They will interpret that as a rejection.

What you think you’re saying: [the answer to their question]
What they think you’re saying: This is an elite and exclusive activity for a level 5 friend and you are a level 1 acquaintance. You are not qualified to join me because you don’t know all this stuff. Go away.

You realise that sometimes the opposite is true and sometimes it's just politness. I don't think this'd be good training advice for an eager aspie with no social understanding.

View attachment 34868

Well I could read those traffic light signals, I'm a good driver
I think you've possibly got the highest karma to message ratio on here to, congrats.

 

[Warmheart]

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

. You wouldn't call someone fat or insult their intelligence on impulse, would you?


I would.



Strangely insults in some circles are okay and an indication that you're friends.

(I wouldn't really)

 

[Cogitatio]

I wonder if the difference is not between how an NT and aspie takes the meaning of those questions. One would imagine that an NT may well answer the question as directly (i.e. the obvious answer to the question, what are you reading is the response 'the title' as an aspie. Maybe the difference is that the NT is more capable (I accept the continuum of NTs also) of detecting when the question is not meaning the obvious.

It might just be that apsies are simply less capable of detecting the nuances. I told my girlfriend a fact about apsies. How we are. And she responded, by lots of people react like that. It was a good point. But my psychologist pointed out that while it is true, it is often the case that the aspie has no choice. they cannot see or do things differently as an NT might. It is out of their control to react any differently.

So perhaps this is the case for your questions. I know when I read them it rang a bell. I always answer questions literally. It gets me into a lot of bother sometimes.

 

[DesertRose]

I'm bad about misunderstanding what someone is saying, but, what would be so bad about just being yourself and accepting some will not like you? Some will like you, and some will be a friend, some will not, and some, if not a LOT of people are just a$$holes no matter what you do or don't do!! I think there is way too much over analyzing going on. It's not always YOU who has a problem. I'm guilty of over analyzing every human, every problem and every scenario in my life. Now that I'm older, it's just too dang much trouble!!! Take a tip, be yourself, if they don't like you, move on, realize it's not always you, it's them sometimes. (No, i havent got this figured out, and am still learning, and have stayed to myself for most of my life, so probably shouldnt even comment. This is just an opinion, not meant to offend anyone. )

 

[Tom]

How elephants pull unspoken rules out of your brain.

 

[Ylva]

Example: what are you reading?

True answer but not what they’re looking for: Title of book

Best answer for social scenarios where I want to retain/create friendship: This book is about x and y but it has z that i know u have an interest in too.

That's funny. I thought they meant "stop that insipid anti-social activity that doesn't revolve around me and interact with me instead".

What’s messed up about this is that we are the ones that communicate explicitly and simply and are pathologized for it, while allistics literally expect us to READ THEIR MINDS and that’s normal? How even is that reasonable? How is it we are the ones that society thinks are mentally ill?

You know how they say that insane people think they are sane? It might not only count in the context of getting home from Vietnam.

 

[Cogitatio]

Following on from my reply above, I discussed this with my girlfriend yesterday. I asked her whether I answer questions too literally. We discussed it for half an hour or so and it turns out I do and not only that, its not just questions. I realised during the discussion that a lot of our communications problems were around me listening to the words she says and taking that string of words and understanding exactly what has been said. Of course, what she says is not always what she means and so she has a go at me for being awkward or splitting hairs. So this topic you raise has been very useful as we both now understand what is going on. She did not realise I do not mean to be awkward and I did not realise that a lot of what she says has other meaning. But not always.

We agreed that some of her questions are literal and need literal answers and some do not. But given the way I am, I can never tell whether a literal answer is expected or not. Therefore, if I assume every question has other meanings then I will melt down at the simplest questions trying to work out in my head if there is another answer required. So we agreed that she would try and be more explicit and clear in her questions.

She gave an excellent example. She said in the mornings she asks me what I am doing today. And my answer is working. What she explained was that she was interested in what work I am doing, who I will be working with, what challenges I face etc. So she is going to be more explicit in her questions to her.

So thank you for raising this. It has helped me understand (I am new to finding out I am aspie) and her understand an important issue in our lives.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

We agreed that some of her questions are literal and need literal answers and some do not. But given the way I am, I can never tell whether a literal answer is expected or not. Therefore, if I assume every question has other meanings then I will melt down at the simplest questions trying to work out in my head if there is another answer required.

The literal aspect is central, I find.

When I detect a hidden meaning I will say to my wife :
Is that a trick question?

Or

Is this a trap?

The point is learning a way round our differences together with love and understanding.

I use humor as a way to show my wife I'm not sure or understanding her. As well as representing good intent , and positive attitude.
So it becomes more habitual.
The questions as above also means she is less defensive and more patient when I struggle with something that is patently obvious to her.
It also buys time.

But,with our relationship, those kinds of questions work, as she already know what I'm like.

It sounds like you're finding our what works for you and that's a good thing
It will also make your other problems seem easier.

 

[Progster]

I tend to take things literally, too. If someone asks me what game I'm playing, I will just assume that they are curious to know what game it is, not that they want to play... I don't think that such a question necessarily means that they want to play, but if they do, all they need to do is ask!

 

[WereBear]

I always go into detail whenever someone asks me a simple question. Even today, a coworker asked me if there were any phone calls while she was away - I didn't just say "no", I said "not that I know of, I was in the restroom during the past several minutes", and then I remembered how another coworker was in the office while I was out, and all he said was "no" - so I ended up saying "oh yes that's right, <coworker> was here during those few minutes so I think I'll go with 'no' as well". Retrospectively, I could have just said "not that I know of". It's like a natural response from me, always adding unnecessary detail and it's hard to remember not to!

In the Heinlein book Stranger in a Strange Land, there are Professional Witnesses/Observers who have to be trained to answer in that way.

Written before the discovery of Asperger's. We would have a lock on that!

 

[Jersey]

Thanks for the translations, it's baffling to me that people would interpret things like that (what they mean) vs how I'd understand them. After living in several areas of the US it's surprising how people can say the same words and mean something else depending on where they're from.

 

[DuckRabbit]

I struggle to understand the mind-set that would thrice offer a skype-call - going beyond what I expected or thought necessary - and then not follow through, as captured in this Whatsapp exchange (with some details anonymised):

25/07/2018, 10:05 p.m. - NT: I hope Cat feels better soon. I have a 12 year old neighbour here in the garden now playing with Baby. Keeping an eye out as she’s very young. Can you chat now? X

***CHAT, before line goes dead***

25/07/2018, 10:26 p.m. – D-R: Difficult to chat on whatsapp with the delay and broken connection - like broken telephone!
25/07/2018, 10:28 p.m. - NT: Yeah totally. Sorry she just left had to say goodbye. What about tomorrow on Skype? X
25/07/2018, 11:04 p.m. - D-R: Nice chatting to you today. Hope Cat has a good night. I'm going to bed myself. Goodnight x
25/07/2018, 11:04 p.m. - NT: Night! Skype tomorrow?
25/07/2018, 11:05 p.m. - NT: Baby will be keen to say hello!!
25/07/2018, 11:07 p.m. - D-R: Yes, great!
25/07/2018, 11:08 p.m. - NT: Ok will text you tomorrow to see what time is best. Sleep well! X
25/07/2018, 11:16 p.m. - D-R: Thanks x

*****SILENCE for 2 days*****

27/07/2018, 8:21 p.m. - D-R: Hi NT, didn't hear from you yesterday. Hope everything's ok?
27/07/2018, 8:23 p.m. - NT: Hi D-R I’m really sorry, with the time diff I said to myself I’d try you at 5 my time then got distracted. How about now?

I was ready to take the first offer to "skype tomorrow?" lightly and not attach any importance to it, but the NT persisted and seemed really keen or intent on "skyping tomorrow", which compelled me to then take it seriously.

Does anyone else find NTs have an ethic of saying one thing and doing another, or making a grand promise and forgetting about it later? What is the thinking behind this? To make them come across as 'a nice person' in the heat of the moment? Do they not realise or care that the expectation they have created will then make them come across as unreliable and fickle if they don't follow through? What exactly is their pay-off in doing this? Or was I never meant to take the promised skype-call literally in the first place? - like the British "You must come for dinner!" - no matter that it was reiterated three times.

There is a second disjunction here in that NT says she will "text me tomorrow to see what time is best" CF. "was going to phone me at 5pm". 5pm was 10pm my time - so not much consideration for what time is best. I read somewhere that, for Aspergers, utterances create promises or contracts in their minds. Do NTs just not expect or care to be taken at their word?

 

[Ylva]

I always get criticized for saying this, but you should not take NTs completely seriously. Everything they say or do socially is about making the other person feel something, not about transmitting information. On the one hand it's artistic, on the other hand it is dishonest. If you liked her when she promised to call you and (in her mind) wouldn't have liked her if she hadn't, she got all the dopamine and oxytocin she wanted from that exchange. She will not feel bound by her word.

Look at it as a quirk. Maybe you can even frame it as charming.