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Androgyny

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I'm interested in hearing your reasons for wishing to be female, if you're willing to share them. And why would you have to act heinously? I don't follow.
I can't really say here as this topic isn't in the adult discussions forum. To say I would act heinously is to demonstrate how great my desire to be female is. Sometimes when I think about something I want, but can never have, I imagine if it were possible to have it, the things I'd be willing to do...
I really just do whatever I want and I don't think or care about how other people feel about it *shrug*
Really?!
The traits, behaviours & characteristics defined as feminine within most societies were NOT defined by women. Many speak to perceptions of women as weaker, emotionally iffy & not too bright at best & dangerous, promiscuous potential sources of (men's) downfall (to whatever evil force a given religion believes in) at worst.
So, who is it defining femininity in these ways? And why do you care about their opinions?
Stereotypes about how men ought to act are also restrictive, absurd & extremely narrow. Neither set of stereotypes is validating in any way. The only difference is that the stereotypes about men were defined by men themselves.
Damn, I don't remember being asked.
3rd wave feminists are discussing gender stereotypes vociferously. Unfortunately, outside of scholarly venues, their voices & perspectives are not heard by the mainstream society.
I'm glad. The amount of **** that comes out of their mouths is insurmountable. And their behaviour, absolutely disgusting. I'm not sure if as a Canadian you have seen their protests of men's rights groups. Abhorrent. I can't...

This men vs women stuff should stop. It won't but, oh well.
Like with Blackness or Whiteness or other nonsense-nesses, I do not think femininity needs to exist as a construct.
This makes absolutely no sense. If we don't call it femininity it will have another name. Humans like to use words to describe and discuss, if you haven't noticed.
 
I'm glad. The amount of **** that comes out of their mouths is insurmountable. And their behaviour, absolutely disgusting. I'm not sure if as a Canadian you have seen their protests of men's rights groups. Abhorrent. I can't...

I don't really know what you're talking about here, but most "men's rights" groups that I've heard of sound pretty abhorrent themselves:

We Went to a Men's Rights Lecture in Toronto | VICE United States

I'm really hoping that this isn't the place that people here who are critical of feminism are coming from (Of course, if anyone here has a really serious problem with feminism, I would have to ask which part of women having equal rights they have a problem with).
 
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I don't really know what you're talking about here, but most "men's rights" groups that I've heard of sound pretty abhorrent themselves:

We Went to a Men's Rights Lecture in Toronto | VICE United States

I'm really hoping that this isn't the place that people here who are critical of feminism are coming from.
I'm not part of any men's rights groups irl or on the internet. If that's what you're asking.

I won't read that entire vice article. Just as I try not to link to things and tell other people to read them either. It quickly becomes 'you read this' 'no you read this' etc.
You can give me a relevant quote from it if you want. I personally haven't seen or heard of them doing anything bad. I like that they exist as an opposition to feminism.

Edit: Maybe I lied about not being part of mens rights groups online. I have been part of communities and online discussions for those against the genital mutilation of male babies and boys. And related sexual abuses by doctors. We are also interested in protecting the genitals of intersex children as - as many parents may choose 'corrective' surgery and cut some of it off before the child can decide - although that's much less of a common problem.
 
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Ok, how about this?

But who are A Voice For Men and why do they care about Canada? AVFM is run by a man named Paul Elam and provides a forum for vitriolic hatred against women and feminists. The website was once labeled a hate site by virus software Norton Symantec, which may have been a mistake—but isn’t completely unjust. Their coverage of CAFE organized events includes extensive videos and articles about the Toronto lectures with a focus on painting event protesters as violent, loudmouth, radical feminists whose goal is to destroy the rights of men. They’ve even gone so far as to post an entire article on one of the protesters, featuring her full name, a picture of her face with the word “bigot” below, as well as screen shots of her Facebook and Twitter posts. They also added this girl to register-her.com, a website AVFM owns where they name women they allege to be “bigots” (whatever that means) and “female rapists,” the majority of whom are women accused of or found guilty of statutory rape. The website is less about men’s rights and more about anti-feminist ideas—and the imaginary monsters which those ideas create.

And what exactly are the parts of feminism that need to be opposed?
 
I feel a bit like a lesbian female trapped in the body of a man, if that makes any sense to you.

Makes total sense. My husband and I joke about me being a gay male in a female body, although I don't feel trapped. I often do feel like I'm missing a c*ck, but it's not quite that straightforward either - I love the fact that I created and breastfed three children, but don't feel any kind of sappy Earth Mother nonsense about it. More like an indestructible Amazonian, I guess :P Physically I am quite andro - small breasts, skinny, not many curves - and my sexuality is very strong and I tend to be the dominant party. My partner has a strong feminine/bi leaning so we sometimes swap roles in bed.

I tend to dress andro and if I do wear a dress, I tend to go all out and dress/act/feel like I'm in drag. I'm really happy in that space too. I walk hard and loud, wear boots all year round unless it hits 40+ degrees (what's that - 105F?), and relate better to animals than to people. I handle dogs, cats, cattle and horses way better than I handle conversation.

I love it when people can't tell what gender I am. It's been happening ever since I can remember, and I love being in that space - it feels like a weight has been lifted from me. The only part that irritates me is when the other party gets embarrassed about it or, if it's a kid, when their parent gets embarrassed and corrects them.
 
Edit: Maybe I lied about not being part of mens rights groups online. I have been part of communities and online discussions for those against the genital mutilation of male babies and boys. And related sexual abuses by doctors. We are also interested in protecting the genitals of intersex children as - as many parents may choose 'corrective' surgery and cut some of it off before the child can decide - although that's much less of a common problem.

I have no objection to any of that, I just don't really want to hear about the kind of demonization of feminists promoted by "men's rights" groups such as the one in the linked article (Real feminists are in favor of men having rights too, I would say).
 
Re: Feminism

@Jeff: Firstly, I agree that "No true Scottsman" type arguments lack a basis in fact. They are phoilosophically weak & untenable.

As for 'feminist ideology', on the basis of your statements, I think you may be making the commonly made error of not having much of a grasp on what feminist ideology. You seem to be taking the most extreme examples of fanatical people (who exist in every ideological camp) & assuming that they are representative of an entire movement or ideology. It is akin to taking Jim Jones & his lunatic cult or that Hale bop comet & poison applesauce cult guy & David Koresh & his Branch Davidians & thinking that THIS is what Christian Ideology is!

There are several different feminist ideologies & agendas & they vary enormously around the world, depending upon the unique challenges women face in a given setting. In Pakistan, for example, a cornerstone feminist issue is the right of girls and women to get an education, to be able to leave their homes alone & without having to obtain a man's permission & even, in some cases, to have a male accompany her,

In Yemen & Ethiopia, a major feminist issue is ending child brides: an appalling issue wherein girls as young as 7 can be married off to men in their 40s & subjected to repeated rapes, kept completely uneducated & condemned to hard labour.

In India, child marriage is also an issue. Another big issue there is dowry burning and burning of women as marital abuse. When a bride marries, her family must pay a dowry (cash, land, goods, jewels etc.) to the groom's family (since she is considered to be a burden they are taking on). The disgusting practice of burning women by pouring kerosene on them & setting them aflame is happening with alarming regularity. It happened in Montreal a year ago when some young guy poured acid over his young girlfriend's face & head. A guy in England did the same to his ex girlfriend: ending her modeling career. He also did the same thing happened to a young women in NYC. THis is by no means 'just' a 3rld world issue (whatever that even means) that we allegedly advanced westerners can dismiss as backward peoples' savagery. The men & women in these cases, that came to mind immediately, were all white & western.

In the west, women still do not get equal pay for work of equal value. In Montreal, a city bus driver who is a highschool dropout with a driver's permit makes over 50,000 per year. He works no over-time. A nurse with a high school diploma & 4 yrs of university makes $35,000. She will be worked to death with long overtime hours. Something is wrong here.

Feminism is not about hatred, For the most part, it isn't about men! It is about looking at the particular challenges & forms f oppression & unfair treatment women face & seeking to empower them (especially girls) to overcome them.

As for hate going both ways, whenever I hear a guy talk this way, I can bet on 2 things: this guy has never been in a positive relationship (romantic type) with a women & he rarely dates actual women. the woman he knows the most is likely his mother. His assumptions about who & what women are, are based upon assumptions, extreme examples & stereotypes. Many of these guys are angry because they cannot attract the kind of woman they want to be with. Part of the problem is that the woman he wants is largely a patchwork quilt of archaic stereotypes about so-called femininity, narrow ideas about women's so-called roles or 'place' & other reductionist nonsense. THat woman does not exist & never really did: she was a figment in the male imagination & the 'role' allotted to her was a marginalized, unrewarding & submissive one.
 
I have thoughts on this tangent, which could take a while to put into meaningful words, but I would rather see this discussion first move to the "Serious Discussion" section before I express them.
 
After complaints of members this thread is clearly going nowhere like this... sorry to all the people who actually wanted to discuss this in a sensible way, but it seems some people tend to be sensitive over this.
 
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