Anti-fragility

[Au Naturel]

 

[Yeshuasdaughter]

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Agree. Whether it be physical or psychological, pain and discomfort, if presented in an ever increasing and rather controlled fashion can be adapted to. The military uses these techniques, as do any high-level physical performance. Your mind and body just get used to it and when pushed to the extremes, can even shut it off. When I was powerlifting at the national and international level, it was not uncommon for myself and my competitors to pass out, nose bleeds, blow-out injuries, etc. You just ignore or override the pain and keep moving, and when your body fails, it fails without pain. I've had devastating injuries that left limbs totally flaccid, and it actually was a relief because that limb was no longer under stress, if you can imagine that! It got to the point where I was unsure if I was even capable of feeling physical pain anymore, to the point where I would just start moving weights that would literally break my body.

Psychological pain is often dealt with in two ways, it either weakens you, or it strengthens you. Those that have strength will look at the horrible people and events in their lives as a "life lesson", it makes them wiser, and they push forward in life stronger for having experienced it. Those that weaken don't get to that point, and are stuck in that emotional trauma, and struggle moving forward whilst "looking in the rearview mirror". I heard a quote the other day, "Falling into the river will not make you drown, but staying submerged will." It sort of sums it up nicely.

I fully understand sensory issues, emotional, and physical trauma. I also understand trying to avoid things that may cause discomfort and pain. All things in moderation.

 

[Yeshuasdaughter]

Resilience is important. And I think that's learned through optimism. Having someone by your side to remind you that things are looking up, and that the happy ending is just around the corner.

It's the most heartbreaking thing in the world, to see someone who was so upbeat and pure hearted, turned into a jaded pessimist, sad and bitter, after a wave of traumatic events.

It's our job to bring them back to the light, and through their healing, they can help others be cheery and regain their hope and wonder too.

 

[Aneka]

My dad taught me that if something was unpleasant or difficult, I should be exposed to it more, not less. Because that would over time make it easier to deal with. If I shielded myself from it and avoided it, it would just continue to be a problem. Maybe even get worse. This of course means you have to grit your teeth and push through unpleasant and difficult things and that is never fun. Obviously. But I think he was right.

Yes, this has been my experience as well. Growth only occurs outside of your comfort zone.

 

[Au Naturel]

My takeaway is that the past doesn't exist anywhere but in your brain. People drag the past around with them; it does no more good than a ball and chain. Fretting over the wrongs you've suffered can't eliminate the wrongs, but it sure keeps them alive in your life. You suffer them over again each time you think about it.

Accept them and decide they don't matter. Not a skill picked up easily. Can take months to learn and may never be a complete process.

Yup. That happened. Oh well, just water under the bridge.

Another takeaway is the importance of accepting that which cannot be changed. The past is one of the things that cannot be changed but, usually, so is the present. If that airline flight is canceled or you don't get the job, getting upset over it will not uncancel. Getting upset over it is what hurts.

In every situation that arises, either there is something you can do to make the situation better, or there is nothing you can do to make it better. Instead of getting angry or depressed or fearful, look for ways to improve the situation. If there is something to be done, do it. If there is nothing to be done, keep calm and carry on.

Most of life's problems are unfixable. Accept them and move on - or don't and feel miserable.

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference...

 

[Au Naturel]

I think one problem with the past is when you go through something so traumatic that it won't let go. It just pops up in your head no matter what you do and makes you feel terrible. I do drag some past around with me but only because it just won't let go. Things you see and memories that haunt you, like watching a loved one die in your arms, that's the worst kind of past I think. You can't get rid of it.

You can learn to let go of those painful memories. They can become memories without crippling emotional content. It takes effort, and you have to want to. Many people do not want to let go of a painful past because the pain is part of how they define themselves. Some people think their past pain is so important they don't ever want to lose it. Pain, anger, and victimization should not be part of anyone's self-definition.

Grief should fade with time and only leave a fond memory of the loved one. Not be painful, intrusive thoughts for the rest of your life.

Those old traumas that keep intruding on the present are a form of PTSD. It is a learned behavior and can be unlearned. You can neutralize your triggers. You can prevent painful memories from rising up unbidden. We have lots of experience treating it today, but most people don't try to get it treated. It is possible to do it yourself through the study of philosophy (Zen, Stoicism, et al.), but if you don't believe it can be overcome or a part of you resists, it won't happen.

https://www.apa.org/ptsd-guideline/treatments

 

[Au Naturel]

I can put it like this, I would sacrifice a finger right now to let it go and not have those memories. The problem is that my memory is strong, I remember most things in pictures and I have little control over it. I don't know, maybe it's possible, I haven't been able to get past a few things and it has been a long time now.

Have you been to a therapist, preferably a CBT or CPT?

 

[Forest Cat]

Have you been to a therapist, preferably a CBT or CPT?

I shouldn't talk about this, I'm sorry, thanks for the info.

 

[1ofakind]

While I think the Anti-fragility video has merit and good points, it concerns me when generalizations are made that seem to minimize the impact of chronic traumatic experiences for some people without emphasizing the importance of ensuring the appropriate support is available.

For someone with complex post traumatic stress disorder from ongoing narcissistic abuse, the chronic abuse can incapacitate a person - especially someone on the autism spectrum who does not have the tools/ability on his or her own. Unfortunately, too often, even therapists are not well educated about things like CPTSD, family narcissistic abuse systems or the autism spectrum. Furthermore, educated expertise can be unaffordable for many.

I, too, believe that there can be resilience and hope with the right mindset AND right support. But for too many, this is not available. It is like taking someone with an inability to swim and when they fall into the water just telling them to think positively or just accept they are drowning. What the person needs is a life jacket or floatation support to get to safety.

Research and books like The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma by Bessel van der Kolk have helped people better understand the complexities of trauma and the impact on the body. I am glad that some people have such strength of mind and resources to not be adversely affected long-term. But, I am also hoping that there is compassion for those who do NOT have the resources needed due to disability, financial constraints, bullying, etc. and are doing the best that they can.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

Those old traumas that keep intruding on the present are a form of PTSD. It is a learned behavior and can be unlearned. You can neutralize your triggers. You can prevent painful memories from rising up unbidden. We have lots of experience treating it today, but most people don't try to get it treated. It is possible to do it yourself through the study of philosophy (Zen, Stoicism, et al.), but if you don't believe it can be overcome or a part of you resists, it won't happen.

Very True. For me, life changes created triggers that sent me back to that lonely, hurt teen and young adult. I underwent more than a year of cognitive processing therapy dissecting those triggers, analyzing my thoughts and feelings to understand what I told myself, reprogramming my thoughts. Now things that would have triggered me only results in fleeting regrets that I could have been a better me.

About anti-fragility. I think my negative experiencestaught me that I needed to be able to advocate for myself, to develop my agency. I credit that for driving some significant growth. It also paved the way for me getting proficient in SCUBA and Whitewater Open Canoe. In whitewater I have experienced some altered mental states, like approaching and running a Class IV rapid that opens with a 6 foot cascade where there is a 50 inch slot you had to hit for your safety. Awareness of detail expands, time slows, you feel the river, focus on your line and let your muscles act automatically according to well practiced maneuvers. Coming down from an adrenaline high and I feel weak and spent.

 

[Luca]

While I think the Anti-fragility video has merit and good points, it concerns me when generalizations are made that seem to minimize the impact of chronic traumatic experiences for some people without emphasizing the importance of ensuring the appropriate support is available.

For someone with complex post traumatic stress disorder from ongoing narcissistic abuse, the chronic abuse can incapacitate a person - especially someone on the autism spectrum who does not have the tools/ability on his or her own. Unfortunately, too often, even therapists are not well educated about things like CPTSD, family narcissistic abuse systems or the autism spectrum. Furthermore, educated expertise can be unaffordable for many.

I, too, believe that there can be resilience and hope with the right mindset AND right support. But for too many, this is not available. It is like taking someone with an inability to swim and when they fall into the water just telling them to think positively or just accept they are drowning. What the person needs is a life jacket or floatation support to get to safety.

Research and books like The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma by Bessel van der Kolk have helped people better understand the complexities of trauma and the impact on the body. I am glad that some people have such strength of mind and resources to not be adversely affected long-term. But, I am also hoping that there is compassion for those who do NOT have the resources needed due to disability, financial constraints, bullying, etc. and are doing the best that they can.

This is so true. You said it better than I could.

Post traumatic stress disorder (especially CPTSD) is a chronic, often lifelong condition, and resources are not always easily accessible, and are often expensive. And I have found in my own personal experience that it is extremely difficult to find therapists who are educated enough to even know the first thing about how to help. Unfortunately some people will never seek help because of the stigma around trauma disorders, and the stigma around being on disability benefits, and needing long term therapy and medication.

Telling someone who is severely traumatized to permanently "think positive" without offering them resources that can actually help, is like telling someone with a permanent leg injury to go run a marathon without any training. And even with those resources, it is a lifelong battle for a lot of people. The things that happened to me as a child were so disgusting that there is no way I will ever be 100% over it, and all these years later I still have night terrors every night, even with a high dose of prazosin. Unfortunately there are some things we can never unsee.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

My takeaway is that the past doesn't exist anywhere but in your brain.

And in the brains of others.

People drag the past around with them; it does no more good than a ball and chain.

If they could not remind their past they would have amnesia. Thats another problem. I guess you mean that traumatic past is the problematic one?

Fretting over the wrongs you've suffered can't eliminate the wrongs, but it sure keeps them alive in your life. You suffer them over again each time you think about it.

Yes, thats very much how trauma works. A past that CANT be assimilated, and the brain re-lives it in a fail intent of assimilate it.

Accept them and decide they don't matter.

This shows lack of understanding of how traumatic memories work. Go and decide that your nails do not need to grow anymore. There are things we can decide and there are things we CAN NOT decide.

On top of your lack of understanding, you are implying that people who suffer from traumatic memories are DECIDING to suffer.

Do you realize how much damage could you be doing to a victim by saying that?

Not a skill picked up easily. Can take months to learn and may never be a complete process.

Its not an skill. Its a very complex and difficult, almost impossible thing to do. Even more difficult without resources, a support group and a talented therapist. Those people are already survivors. SURVIVORS.

Those people where already at HELL. They survived things that would have destroyed hundreds of other people.

But hey, here you come to tell them how to solve that "past" problem... Here you come to the rescue, with all your knowledge and experience on the matter....

Yup. That happened. Oh well, just water under the bridge.

Wow, thank you. Now people who suffered abuse from their parents know how to solve their problems. Thanks to the heavens that you was here to light their path into healing....

Most of life's problems are unfixable. Accept them and move on - or don't and feel miserable.

So people who develop alters in order to survive their parents sexual abuse is because they decide not to accept things and move on? Absurd.

(Trigger Warning)

The kind of ideas you are suggesting to be true are those defended by abussers themselves to put the blame on the victims.

Abusers defend that victims are victims because they decide it. Parents who sexually abuse their kids say their kids wanted to be abused.

The ideas you are sharing are not innocent ones @Au Naturel , they are very dangerous ideas.

I want to think that you are not an abuser yourself, and that you speak from ignorance. I hope thats the case. If you happen to want to learn how trauma works, you have been sugested very good books:

Research and books like The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma by Bessel van der Kolk have helped people better understand the complexities of trauma and the impact on the body.

Trauma and recovery is another good book on the topic.

Both autists and NT people tend to talk about things they dont know, nor have studied, like it was a matter of fact or logic. Black and White thinking can make even more difficult to accept that things are not as simple as black and White.

But trauma is no joke, abuse is no joke and blaming victims is no joke.

Please, educate yourself on this topic.

 

[Wolfnox]

It's the most heartbreaking thing in the world, to see someone who was so upbeat and pure hearted, turned into a jaded pessimist, sad and bitter, after a wave of traumatic events.

Happened to me and I still struggle with it. Hard to ignore pessimism when it’s often proven right. Optimism feels like easy to manipulate and vulnerable to betrayal.
That said I am working on a healthy optimism.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

For someone with complex post traumatic stress disorder from ongoing narcissistic abuse, the chronic abuse can incapacitate a person - especially someone on the autism spectrum who does not have the tools/ability on his or her own. Unfortunately, too often, even therapists are not well educated about things like CPTSD, family narcissistic abuse systems or the autism spectrum. Furthermore, educated expertise can be unaffordable for many.

I, too, believe that there can be resilience and hope with the right mindset AND right support. But for too many, this is not available. It is like taking someone with an inability to swim and when they fall into the water just telling them to think positively or just accept they are drowning. What the person needs is a life jacket or floatation support to get to safety.

Research and books like The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma by Bessel van der Kolk have helped people better understand the complexities of trauma and the impact on the body. I am glad that some people have such strength of mind and resources to not be adversely affected long-term. But, I am also hoping that there is compassion for those who do NOT have the resources needed due to disability, financial constraints, bullying, etc. and are doing the best that they can.

PTSD is not just about narcissistic or physical abuse. Mine was generated when I hit puberty and had an urge to belong. I felt isolated by my peers and I was spoken to in ways that just highlighted my social deficiencies, all the while being able to observe the ease others had in social situations and connection. To understand this I created inner narratives that distorted my self concept and body image. I felt helpless to change. Little did I know that what I told myself were lies generated from ignorance about my autism and profound inexperience with nobody to guide me towards positive social behavior.

 

[Au Naturel]

And in the brains of others.

If they could not remind their past they would have amnesia. Thats another problem. I guess you mean that traumatic past is the problematic one?

Yes, thats very much how trauma works. A past that CANT be assimilated, and the brain re-lives it in a fail intent of assimilate it.

This shows lack of understanding of how traumatic memories work. Go and decide that your nails do not need to grow anymore. There are things we can decide and there are things we CAN NOT decide.

On top of your lack of understanding, you are implying that people who suffer from traumatic memories are DECIDING to suffer.

Do you realize how much damage could you be doing to a victim by saying that?

Its not an skill. Its a very complex and difficult, almost impossible thing to do. Even more difficult without resources, a support group and a talented therapist. Those people are already survivors. SURVIVORS.

Those people where already at HELL. They survived things that would have destroyed hundreds of other people.

But hey, here you come to tell them how to solve that "past" problem... Here you come to the rescue, with all your knowledge and experience on the matter....

Wow, thank you. Now people who suffered abuse from their parents know how to solve their problems. Thanks to the heavens that you was here to light their path into healing....



So people who develop alters in order to survive their parents sexual abuse is because they decide not to accept things and move on? Absurd.

(Trigger Warning)

The kind of ideas you are suggesting to be true are those defended by abussers themselves to put the blame on the victims.

Abusers defend that victims are victims because they decide it. Parents who sexually abuse their kids say their kids wanted to be abused.

The ideas you are sharing are not innocent ones @Au Naturel , they are very dangerous ideas.

I want to think that you are not an abuser yourself, and that you speak from ignorance. I hope thats the case. If you happen to want to learn how trauma works, you have been sugested very good books:



Trauma and recovery is another good book on the topic.

Both autists and NT people tend to talk about things they dont know, nor have studied, like it was a matter of fact or logic. Black and White thinking can make even more difficult to accept that things are not as simple as black and White.

But trauma is no joke, abuse is no joke and blaming victims is no joke.

Please, educate yourself on this topic.

This is unnecessarily hostile. At no point did I say to forget the past. I've never said anything about blaming the victim. You are attacking a strawman.

Of course, if you are currently being abused, you need to escape your abuser. That is always step one. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking specifically about adults whose painful past intrudes, making their present miserable. Triggering and panic attacks and dark intrusive thoughts from events in the past, not current trauma.

I said that to overcome trauma, one should accept it and move on. The past cannot be changed, only your attitude to it. I had an abysmal childhood with physical and emotional abuse. There is nothing I can do to change it, but I can refuse to let it govern my life. The lessons I learned were wrong. I had to learn new lessons.

You can't change the thoughts in other people's heads. You can work on you. You can work on how you relate (or refuse to relate) to those other people. Anything else is futile.

Nobody said you have to do it on your own. It is possible, but not everyone can go that route, and it can take a lifetime. So I suggested therapy.

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is based on the idea that what is learned can be unlearned. It and its variants are documented as the best propositions for recovering from PTSD. It doesn't erase any memories. It reformats how those memories are viewed. It neutralizes triggers. It takes advantage of the agency every person possesses. If anything, the person needs to unlearn that they are at fault and replace it with the knowledge that they are not. Nobody said it was easy.

This is where you are. This is where you need to be. Here are steps to get there.

The biggest transition is the one from "Of course I should be triggered by this." to "How do I stop being triggered?" Then you can go to work on removing that ball and chain. You'll never start if you don't think it can be done. The transition has to happen, or you will never seek help. We need to encourage agency and not helplessness.

 

[WhitewaterWoman]

There is something about intelligence being able to hold two conflicting ideas in one’s mind at the same time. Maybe like Schrodinger’s cat.

There are two critical ideas being expressed here and I believe they are both true.

CPTSD and life long trauma exist. No doubt about that.

AND

Some people, with CBT or other resources, become able to leave it behind.

I don’t think anyone knows why some move forward and some do not. Some people die of cancer and some do not. It isn’t a value judgment.

It is critically important to accept both as reality. One experience does not negate the experience of another.

 

[Au Naturel]

"people who develop alters in order to survive their parents sexual abuse"

This is the very definition of not moving on. Moving on is acknowledging that something bad happened but not allowing the perp to control your life in the future. You've cherry picked the most extreme case possible.

"Now people who suffered abuse from their parents know how to solve their problems."

Absurd statement. You are looking for a fight where no fight exists. If people knew how to solve their problems there would be no problems. All another person can do is to make suggestions, preferably those with some degree of documented success. No value judgments on the response.

One can encourage people to act to improve their life or you can tell them how terrible things are and how sad you feel for them without proposing a path to a resolution.

 

[1ofakind]

PTSD is not just about narcissistic or physical abuse. Mine was generated when I hit puberty and had an urge to belong. I felt isolated by my peers and I was spoken to in ways that just highlighted my social deficiencies. To understand this I created inner narratives that distorted my self concept and body image. I felt helpless to change. Little did I know that what I told myself were lies generated from ignorance about my autism and profound inexperience with nobody to guide me towards positive social behavior.

From what you wrote earlier in this thread, I am very glad you were able to successfully heal your PTSD. I applaud your hard work to overcome that and I am glad you had the right resources to help. Please just remember that not everyone's brain works the same nor is everyone's trauma or experience the same.

To me, it is not about comparing the severity of one another's trauma or autism difficulties nor making judgments on expected outcomes (Especially without having walked in the other person's shoes), but helping to get more support and compassion out there for the huge traumatic hurdles many on the autism spectrum face without the needed support, guidance, finances and expertise. IMO we need more experts better trained about autism and CPTSD along with better, affordable resources for ASD adults so a higher percentage can heal from trauma as well.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

We need to encourage agency and not helplessness.

I second that! We have seen on this site people who have personal desires and through fear or learned helplessness have abdicated their agency. Rather than the internal compass and drive that is needed for growth they look for validation from others. A person who looks towards others to be happy rarely finds happiness.

A sense of agency allows one to advocate for oneself, whether it is psychological/physical boundaries or being able to act positively to claim happiness from the exigencies of life's banality.